Novell Desktop 10.

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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Novell was showing off their next desktop OS earlier this week; Novell Deskop 10.
Looks like they are incorporating their desktop stuff they have been working on in the past year or so.

Some C# programs like Flickr (photograph management software), Banshee (mp3 player), and a few other items.

A conversion utility to automaticly port Visual Basic macros in Excell spreedsheets to the starbase marcos for use in OpenOffice.org and 100% legal mp3 codecs for Linux that are open source (although still patent encumbered..).

All sorts of stuff like that.
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,124571,00.asp

It's suppose to have it's release cooridanted with their Suse Linux releases.

Oh, they also demo'd Opengl accelerated graphics for X Windows. I don't think that it will be part of the actual Novell release, but they are interesting and it's obviously a usable Beta right now.

Some videos of the desktop is aviable.
http://cluster.sys.oakland.edu/test/

Get them while they are still up.
 

rmrf

Platinum Member
May 14, 2003
2,872
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the alt-tab was kind of cool, but I could care less if my window disforms when I'm moving it around at mach-speed on my desktop

I'm not a fan of Novell at all, but I'm sure they've worked hard on it.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
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Originally posted by: rmrf
the alt-tab was kind of cool, but I could care less if my window disforms when I'm moving it around at mach-speed on my desktop

I'm not a fan of Novell at all, but I'm sure they've worked hard on it.

Well not only does it wiggle stuff around, but it does it faster then what simply moving windows does right now on a desktop.

Also you noticed how the video still played as it was being manipulated and iconized? That and they replaced the most of the eye-candy features aviable on OS X.

And not only that, but unlike OS X these things are not hardcoded into the system, but they are configurable and allow people to make up their own eye candy if they care to program it or use a altarnative composition manager.

that and it was all running from a laptop with a old laptop with a 7500 ATI mobility graphics card. (I beleive)

No need to have new hardware to get these things.
 

rmrf

Platinum Member
May 14, 2003
2,872
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Originally posted by: drag
Originally posted by: rmrf
the alt-tab was kind of cool, but I could care less if my window disforms when I'm moving it around at mach-speed on my desktop

I'm not a fan of Novell at all, but I'm sure they've worked hard on it.

Well not only does it wiggle stuff around, but it does it faster then what simply moving windows does right now on a desktop.

Also you noticed how the video still played as it was being manipulated and iconized? That and they replaced the most of the eye-candy features aviable on OS X.

And not only that, but unlike OS X these things are not hardcoded into the system, but they are configurable and allow people to make up their own eye candy if they care to program it or use a altarnative composition manager.

that and it was all running from a laptop with a old laptop with a 7500 ATI mobility graphics card. (I beleive)

No need to have new hardware to get these things.

that is very interesting. I figured with all the eye-candy they had going on, they were running it on some uber quad xeon machine with the latest quadro card from nvidia.

it seems fairly promising then. are they releasing it as a WM, or an xorg replacement? I think in the end, that will determine my decision.
 

SleepWalkerX

Platinum Member
Jun 29, 2004
2,649
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Sweet! Will be hopping on this when it comes out.

Hopefully Novell can push their Desktop enough to rival windows.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: rmrf
Originally posted by: drag
Originally posted by: rmrf
the alt-tab was kind of cool, but I could care less if my window disforms when I'm moving it around at mach-speed on my desktop

I'm not a fan of Novell at all, but I'm sure they've worked hard on it.

Well not only does it wiggle stuff around, but it does it faster then what simply moving windows does right now on a desktop.

Also you noticed how the video still played as it was being manipulated and iconized? That and they replaced the most of the eye-candy features aviable on OS X.

And not only that, but unlike OS X these things are not hardcoded into the system, but they are configurable and allow people to make up their own eye candy if they care to program it or use a altarnative composition manager.

that and it was all running from a laptop with a old laptop with a 7500 ATI mobility graphics card. (I beleive)

No need to have new hardware to get these things.

that is very interesting. I figured with all the eye-candy they had going on, they were running it on some uber quad xeon machine with the latest quadro card from nvidia.

it seems fairly promising then. are they releasing it as a WM, or an xorg replacement? I think in the end, that will determine my decision.

XGL is a X server that runs on OpenGL.

It's not so much a replacement for X.org.. it's part of X.org. Eventually when it matures it will probably be the standard X server for most people running Linux.

Also note that it's going to backward compatable with current X servers. X is a standardized protocol and if your running a modularized version of X.org's X server/libraries/drivers (X.org 7.x series) then this should be pretty much a drop in replacement. Maybe it would have to update the drivers, I am not exactly sure.

And not only would it provide hardware acceleration for items like composition
(basicly you render windows off-screen, take a snapshot of that then use that as a texture for OpenGL primatives that are displayed on the actual screen. and use X damage extension to inform the windows when they need to be redrawn) But it will make things easier for driver developers. (closed source and open source)

Also it should reduce the load on the central cpu because it will allow for much more efficient use of your video card's capabilities. Right now on a non-composition enabled X server you have to redraw the window constantly when moving things around. This leads to tearing, when a application is working hard you'd get blank spaces in it, buttons dissapear and reapeer. Windows blank out. Stuff like that.

On a current composition-enabled computer, unless your using nvidia's propriatory drivers, the X.org's XAA drivers (very legacy items) are unable to provide effective access to your video card and you get high loads and slow times. (The newer EXA drivers fix most of this however.)

With a opengl-enabled X server you can get all of this and use the 3d capabilities of your video card to do everything. It's about the same difference as running software-rendered Quake2 versus hardware-rendered Quake2.

Other projects like Cairo will make it easier to get better acceleration for things like text rendering and window drawning.. making the normal aplications themselves 'opengl'. No need to reprogram apps to do this either (except for odd bugs and such that may come up). This is taken care of down at the application library level with GTK and QT stuff.
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
0
I am very enthralled with XGL... can't wait to test the new version that should be coming out soon. I hope it eventually gets better color management, because I'd love to move my main workstation (which does photo editing aside from office tasks) to Linux if the photo editing capabilities were better.
 

Quinton McLeod

Senior member
Jan 17, 2006
375
0
0
It all has to do with that Desktop initive Novell, IBM and the lot are doing with Linux. Before long, Linux will take over Windows
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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Originally posted by: ProviaFan
I am very enthralled with XGL... can't wait to test the new version that should be coming out soon. I hope it eventually gets better color management, because I'd love to move my main workstation (which does photo editing aside from office tasks) to Linux if the photo editing capabilities were better.


That doesn't have much to do with the Xserver, but the individual applications running on it.

I think that there is a X extension that would allow a icc file to be used to adjust the colors in the X server, but I don't know much about it.

Here is a page that has links to different projects that are trying to work together to get a more proper color managed workflow going.
http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/OpenIcc
 

timswim78

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2003
4,330
1
81
It looks the people at Novell have really been doing some work. Looks like a nice interface.

Now only if they could give a polished presentation of their OS (ala Gates or Jobs), rather than shaking a video for 30 seconds.
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
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I see this making the video card driver world pretty interesting. So far, if you're not interested in gaming, you can usually just go with whatever comes with your distro and not worry about anything because no acceleration was needed. No, of course, there's going to be a much higher demand for acceleration.

For ati, things will either get way worse or ati will maybe get it through there head what's going on and they'll implement some drivers and make things much easier. Then, from the nvidia side (and ati too, if they make useable drivers), you'll get the people who refuse to use proprietary drivers (particularly all the platforms that use X but nvidia doesn't support) creating much more demand for open source drivers and, particularly, chip specs so they can implement their own. I'm not seeing either nvidia or ati being very accomodating and lots of fights will ensue between people that will and will not accept 'binary blobs' in their systems. That's my take, anyways. I wonder if the effort of the community will be enough to overcome lack of vendor help or if it'll all be a big mess.

Anybody know how that open gpu design effort is going? That might get really interesting, as I'm sure the Xgl people would be more than happy to tailor their work to that project, if it produces something useable.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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Originally posted by: kamper
Anybody know how that open gpu design effort is going? That might get really interesting, as I'm sure the Xgl people would be more than happy to tailor their work to that project, if it produces something useable.

I think they're going for 2d only at the moment. Or atleast not putting extensive resources to 3d. But I haven't heard anything from them in a while (haven't looked either).
 

Haden

Senior member
Nov 21, 2001
578
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In all four videos they didn't resize any window.
It might be coincidence, but given window resizing still is major problem with Xorg/composite (new buffer needs to be allocated and old discarded, thus resize is not so smooth)
I doubt they solved this problem.
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: kamper
Anybody know how that open gpu design effort is going? That might get really interesting, as I'm sure the Xgl people would be more than happy to tailor their work to that project, if it produces something useable.

I think they're going for 2d only at the moment. Or atleast not putting extensive resources to 3d. But I haven't heard anything from them in a while (haven't looked either).
I don't remember what the project was called, but is this it? That page (and what I gleaned from the kerneltrap articles) implied that 3d was the priority and that 2d would actually run on top of 3d. Make sense to me because anything you can offload from the cpu would be a huge boost over completely software-done acceleration. As was sort of implied, simply sticking general purpose cpu on a card and treating it like a gpu would help lots. It seems to me that, even though the high-end graphics market is extremely competitive and probably completely out of the reach of open source projects, there's a lot of low hanging fruit that can be picked off.

The other interesting thing, and I'm not sure I fully understand this, was the reprogrammable chip idea. Does that mean that, provided you have the right tools, you can simply download the new chip design and put it on your card, essentially upgrading for free? I see this as being a tremendous benefit, because manufacturing would probably be one of the project's highest recurring costs. Once everyone pays a few hundred for the base chip, I'm sure we'd all be more than happy to stump up a fraction of that for an upgrade and hopefully that would pay for creating new designs. Of course, I'm sure now and there that you'd have to upgrade hardware too, but so long as it's not every 6 months...
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: kamper
Anybody know how that open gpu design effort is going? That might get really interesting, as I'm sure the Xgl people would be more than happy to tailor their work to that project, if it produces something useable.

I think they're going for 2d only at the moment. Or atleast not putting extensive resources to 3d. But I haven't heard anything from them in a while (haven't looked either).

Na. The 2d idea was dropped right away. They are going for 3d only and will emulate 2d support by using different items in the 3d core. Something like that. I beleive they'd have legacy vga support.

They have a wiki running at opengraphics.org, which seems to be down at the moment. But their mailing list remains active.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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The other interesting thing, and I'm not sure I fully understand this, was the reprogrammable chip idea. Does that mean that, provided you have the right tools, you can simply download the new chip design and put it on your card, essentially upgrading for free? I see this as being a tremendous benefit, because manufacturing would probably be one of the project's highest recurring costs. Once everyone pays a few hundred for the base chip, I'm sure we'd all be more than happy to stump up a fraction of that for an upgrade and hopefully that would pay for creating new designs. Of course, I'm sure now and there that you'd have to upgrade hardware too, but so long as it's not every 6 months...


All FPGA chips are 'programmable'. It's not a simple as downloading a file to your computer and running 'execute' and update it that way. You'd have to have a device that plugs into your computer and then pull the chip from card and plug it into the programmer. Something like that.

But yes, if you do it correctly you can update your video card that way. You'd also be able to program other things like hardware encoders or even proccessors.

It's pretty common to use FPGA chips for electronics.. generally they are more expensive and have more limitations then a common ASIC design (were the chips is pre-designed and stamped out from a factory). But developement time is less and it's good for low yeild (as in numbers) of cards because setting up a ASIC design can be expensive.

They plan on releasing a FPGA design for testing and evaluation. As well as providing a cheap card that can be programmed for students and electronic enthusiests.

After that is tested and stabilised they should offer a ASIC design for regular users since it will be much cheaper to produce and offer better performance.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Very awsome. I'd love to see this get implemented as soon as possible, even if it is just for the desktop right now. I prefer the *nix style of having a standalone X server and not integrated like Windows does (so when a crash occurs I can just move back to shell and look at the crash log...and I don't have to restart for graphics drivers, etc), but the loss is that it doesn't feel anywhere near the snappiness of WindowsXP. Its not that much slower, but it is something I notice...and those videos showed very quick response times!

And actually I shoudl modify that to say Gnome doesn't feel as snappy(makes me shudder as to the "speed" of KDE...). I've used Fluxbox temporarily before when I setup a Gentoo Box to learn more about Linux, and that thing is lightening speed
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,709
11
81
Originally posted by: Haden
In all four videos they didn't resize any window.
It might be coincidence, but given window resizing still is major problem with Xorg/composite (new buffer needs to be allocated and old discarded, thus resize is not so smooth)
I doubt they solved this problem.

Resizing windows works fine. I'm very impressed so far. Everything renders smoothly and I haven't noticed a single hiccup at all. I've reproduced most of what they've done in that latest video and it all works just as it should.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,709
11
81
Originally posted by: Childs
Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX
New XGL video!!!

http://www.freedesktop.org/~davidr/xgl-demo1.xvid.avi


That was pretty impressive. Does anyone know what the specs were in the demo machine?

My P-M 1.8, 1GB, 9700 Mobility can do all of that quite easily. People have it working well on gf2 series cards. I opend up about 8 windows, made some of them partially transparent, played a partially transparent video, had the windows splayed across 2 faces of the cube and rotated it halfway between faces and it was still at about 4% cpu usage.
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
0
0
Originally posted by: silverpig
My P-M 1.8, 1GB, 9700 Mobility can do all of that quite easily. People have it working well on gf2 series cards. I opend up about 8 windows, made some of them partially transparent, played a partially transparent video, had the windows splayed across 2 faces of the cube and rotated it halfway between faces and it was still at about 4% cpu usage.
What graphics drivers are you using?
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,709
11
81
Originally posted by: kamper
Originally posted by: silverpig
My P-M 1.8, 1GB, 9700 Mobility can do all of that quite easily. People have it working well on gf2 series cards. I opend up about 8 windows, made some of them partially transparent, played a partially transparent video, had the windows splayed across 2 faces of the cube and rotated it halfway between faces and it was still at about 4% cpu usage.
What graphics drivers are you using?

ATI's fglrx binary drivers. I'm not 100% sure which version right now as my laptop is off.
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,450
7
81
Originally posted by: kamper
Originally posted by: silverpig
My P-M 1.8, 1GB, 9700 Mobility can do all of that quite easily. People have it working well on gf2 series cards. I opend up about 8 windows, made some of them partially transparent, played a partially transparent video, had the windows splayed across 2 faces of the cube and rotated it halfway between faces and it was still at about 4% cpu usage.
What graphics drivers are you using?

I was wondering if ATI even had 3D acceleration. The last time I used Linux only Nvidia cards did. I'll give this a spin tonight.
 
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