Now that I must start over from scratch (assessing my camera needs)...

radhak

Senior member
Aug 10, 2011
843
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I mentioned in another thread that I lost my camera gear last month (as in my signature still). I'm not ready to buy another camera yet, for finances; but hopefully, in the next six months or so...maybe?

But I do want to figure out what exactly should I go for. With DSLRs, I've only been with Nikon (first the D40, then the D90). And I have recently been eying full-frame cameras, particularly since the D600 and the D610 have brought the FF within affordability (not really, but relatively speaking).

What do I photograph? Nature. Landscapes, mostly. Sunsets. Waterfalls. Animals, bugs. Portraits, some of the time (generally available light, and a bit of flash-lighting). Very rarely, action - kids soccer or basketball, tennis, etc. Some birds in flight.

A friend has the Nikon D7100, and says he does not see why I'd need a FF, let alone want one. He claims an entry level FF like the D610 is not that much more than what D7100 offers. But somehow that sounds to me like the arguments I used to hear about how I did not need a DSLR because there were some great point-and-shoot available (true) that matched DSLRs (not true).

I have looked at the mirror-less cameras, but am unsure what their advantages are wrt DSLRs. The cameras are smaller, but the lenses are not, and as it is I'm not worried about camera size yet.

I'm willing to look at other brands, but I have not a single gripe against Nikon, so not sure why I'd jump ship. (But just for my edification, what are the entry-level full-frame DSLRs from the others?)

So with all that, whaddya all say - any words of advice on what I should/could be looking for?

By they time this year ends, will the full-frames go cheaper? Will the mirror-free become more compelling? Will Canon (or anybody else) offer something dramatically mind-blowing?
 

CuriousMike

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2001
3,044
543
136
Nature. Landscapes. Sunsets. Waterfalls.

All of that screams "dynamic range is priority #1".

If you care about dynamic range, FF is still hard to beat.

If you genuinely don't care about camera size, and those are your real priorities, and the expense of FF lenses doesn't shock you...

I just bought into the D7100 2 months ago. Enjoying it. It'll likely be 85% as good as the D6(1)0 for DR. But if I was starting over and my priorities were your priorities... sheesh.

Another thought would be the Sony A7 series -- FF sensors in smaller bodies. They're not speed demons in terms of AF or burst speed, but have good DR.

I guess another way to think about it is "what lenses do I need", and find out who has the best lenses for your application, and then find a body to work those lenses.
 

NAC

Golden Member
Dec 30, 2000
1,105
11
81
My uses includes sports shooting. For my uses, and my budget I decided that a crop camera would save me money AND in general give me better performance. Basically, I'd have to spend a multiple more to get the reach and fps that I wanted.

It seems to me that the key determination is how important sports and birds in flight are for you, and what kind of lens you want for those tasks. For basketball, an 85mm on a full frame is pretty affordable, and should give good performance. But for soccer, a 70-200 might be a bit limiting. I'd rather use a 70-200 on a crop camera for soccer. For birds in flight, the new Tamron 150-600 is your best bang for the buck, but again that might give better results on a crop camera than a full frame.

For your main uses- nature, portraits, etc - a full frame will give more depth of field control and better picture quality in low light. BUT... it also seems to me a crop camera can give very good results in those uses, they are simple for the camera.

For example - on a scale of 1-10 for performance - using Canon models which I'm familiar with - a 70D might give you a "9" in performance for portraits because of a little bit of less depth of field control, compared to a full frame 6D giving 10. But the 70D might give you a 8 in soccer for $2000 spent (on a 70D and a 70-200), whereas a 6D would cost an extra $500 and only give you a 5 because you can't reach in as much and you don't have as sophisticated a focus system and FPS. Not until you spend $4000+ on a 5DmIII and a 70-300 do you get better performance with the full frame camera. I'm unsure how the 7100 and 610 compare in FPS and focus ability, the math will likely be a bit different.

Nothing is perfect.
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
1
0
Get a Nikon & Sony full frame if you want the absolutely best due to the slightly better sensor, but as for landscape/nature and portraits nothing beat a used Canon 5D classic for price.

[add]
And for your type of work a cheap 50mm is the way to go because at f/5.6~f/8 most 50mm pretty well match or very close to the best of lenses.
 
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JohnnyRebel

Senior member
Feb 7, 2011
762
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Also, the D7000 is a steal right now (refurb). $619

http://www.adorama.com/INKD7000R.html

Sigma f/2.8 mid-zoom $519

http://www.adorama.com/SG1750NKK.html

Tokina wide-angle zoom f/2.8 $525

http://www.adorama.com/TN1116NK2.html

Tokina 100mm Macro $399

http://www.adorama.com/TN100PNKAF.html

Nikon 35mm f/1.8 $196

http://www.adorama.com/searchsite/de...on%2035mm%20dx

Nikon 50mm f/1.8 $121

http://www.adorama.com/NK5018AFDU.html

Used Nikon 70-210 AF-D on Ebay for $100ish

http://kenrockwell.com/nikon/7021056.htm
 

radhak

Senior member
Aug 10, 2011
843
14
81
Great points, everybody! Good to see empirical arguments to back up the vague hypotheses I had.

That 6D looks good, as good as the D610, methinks. Is that the entry level FF for Canons?

I'd not mind an older model, if that's what the 5D is, I presume same as the D700; thing is, seems to be a step backward to buy earlier technology. I'll want to wait a bit to shore up on funds; if I'm unable to, I'll definitely take another look at these.

The one thing I'm forming an opinion about, is that the 'crop' factor of APSC cameras is not exactly an advantage over FFs. Because, to be technically correct, the sensor size doesn’t magnify the scene at all, it just restricts the field of view.

After all, the overall impact is the same as using some software to crop a full-frame picture to make it appear closer. If I have enough pixels, I could take a FF picture, crop it so much that the target could appear much closer. Nowadays I could even do this on the camera itself. This page has a brief but nice explanation.
 

radhak

Senior member
Aug 10, 2011
843
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81
Nice list, JR! Particularly those prime lenses - they produce great snaps!
 

JohnnyRebel

Senior member
Feb 7, 2011
762
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The one thing I'm forming an opinion about, is that the 'crop' factor of APSC cameras is not exactly an advantage over FFs. Because, to be technically correct, the sensor size doesn’t magnify the scene at all, it just restricts the field of view.

I agree. The advantage of DX is smaller/cheaper while still providing the benefits of a DSLR. FF negatives are size/weight/price. Pixel density does come into play, so very often a DX will give better performance than an FX cropped to DX size and uses the central sweet-spot of FF lenses and can be very sharp on lesser lenses. For example, the D700 "crop mode" was around 5 mp, where the D7000 was 16 mp. The D800 has the same pixel density as the D7000 @ 5x the price.

I find even the D7000 a bit of a chore to haul along on excursions, and can only imagine how often a D600 and FF zooms would sit at the house while I was out. I would like something like the DF with top-end primes, but for the cost of the DF and one FX f/1.4 prime I could have a Fuji X-T1 along with 4 fast primes (ultra-wide f/2.8, wide f/1.4, normal f/1.4, portrait f/1.2) with very good IQ and super ergonomics.
 

radhak

Senior member
Aug 10, 2011
843
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Is the Fuji X-T1 a so-called mirror-less or 4/3 camera? It seems to have good reviews from Ken Rockwell, though he does not clarify the type of camera it is.
 

jlarsson

Golden Member
Jul 31, 2001
1,050
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I own both the D7100 and D610, and tend to shoot many of the same subjects as the OP. If I were starting from scratch, I'd probably start my search with a FF mirrorless like the Sony A7R. That's probably a lot more reasonable to travel/hike with than a gripped D610 and a couple of lenses.

What's your budget?
 

radhak

Senior member
Aug 10, 2011
843
14
81
Why do you say that? IOW, what makes you think the mirror-less would be better than either the d7100 or the d610?

As for budget, I want to hold back on buying anything until I save up to an entry-level FF camera. I know, that's vague, but deliberately so. I'm hoping I can get a nice used/refurb for less than $1500, but if in meanwhile I like something higher than that, I'll just wait till I can reach there.

It helps that none of my prior gear was bought new; all of it, camera, lens, flash, etc was off Craigslist. (Well - other than a couple of SD cards, of course). And it all worked great; so I'm not shy of looking at used stuff.

But this 'research' is needed first.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
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What do I photograph? Nature. Landscapes, mostly. Sunsets. Waterfalls. Animals, bugs. Portraits, some of the time (generally available light, and a bit of flash-lighting). Very rarely, action - kids soccer or basketball, tennis, etc. Some birds in flight.

First of all, ignore all replies on this thread that do not take your shooting needs into consideration and instead talk about that poster's shooting needs.

Second, give up on full-frame. Since you talk about costs, you should not go full-frame because the camera and lens makers milk FF especially hard, and it isn't necessary for your purposes anyway since you mostly shoot landscapes, presumably at low ISOs and large depths of field (lower-noise high ISO and small DOF being the main reasons to go full-frame). Furthermore, full-frame lenses are typically bigger and heavier.

I would NOT get Sony A7/r/s unless you really understand what you are getting yourself into in terms of pricing, and are ok with much worse autofocus tracking than you'd get with the A6000 (or E-M1 or GH4 or any midrange-or-higher DSLR). All the FF cameramakers milk the living **** out of their FF users due to lack of competition... FF is a low-volume, high-margin business catering to pros and people willing to pay pro prices. APS-C is highly competitive with so many cameramakers/mounts/lens producers jammed into that space, so you see better pricing than you do with FF. M43 has somewhat less competition than APS-C and lower economies of scale in some cases, so once again you get milked more than you'd expect based on production costs.

And lastly, consider this: the A6000's low-light performance is about the same as the original Canon 5D from several years ago. And the A6000 has dynamic range almost tied with any of the best FF cameras. Sensor tech keeps improving! So what's left of FF's supposed advantages? Not much. I personally think extremely shallow DOF in FF is a gimmick anyway so I could not care less about the somewhat larger DOF in APS-C, but I know reasonable minds can disagree.

Third, you don't shoot much action, so it's not necessary to get top-end DSLRs which have lagless OVFs and good AF tracking ability. Given YOUR needs, mirrorless becomes an option. The Oly E-M1, Panny GH4 (with Panny lenses only), and Sony a6000 autofocus and track moving objects at least as well as comparably-priced DSLRs. http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/sony-a6000/sony-a6000-shooters-report-part-ii.htm The Nikon 1 series does even better, but since you prioritize landscapes, I would go for a larger sensor than that. If you're ok with good single-shot autofocus but lousier-than-DSLR tracking ability, you can buy an older model like a E-M5, GH3, or NEX-6. I wouldn't do it, though, since you said you sometimes shoot action, just not nearly as much as landscape.

Personally, I'd go mirrorless if I were you. I have similar need as you (mostly landscapes, sometimes portraits and macros, occasionally telephoto/action) and wound up with a Sony a6000. I was so happy with it that I sold my Nikon D5100 and most of my Nikon lenses.

Just a few mirrorless advantages:

Size/weight. Since there is no gap for flapping mirrors, wideangle and normal lenses can be made smaller and lighter than for DSLRs. The advantage goes away for telephoto lenses, but you don't shoot much telephoto anyway.

Video AF. Most DSLRs still stink for video, whereas mirrorless cameras can autofocus a lot better.

Focus Assist (especially with EVFs). All mirrorless cameras give you depth of field preview for free, whereas you have to use live view on DSLRs unless they are fancy enough for DOFP. But since mirrorless cameras with EVF allow you to look at a nice EVF instead of a washed-out LCD with sun glare all over it, mirrorless depth of field preview is easier to use. Ditto with focus magnification. And Sony mirrorless cameras have focus peaking which outline sharp edges in color. This can be used in conjunction with magnification to make it even easier to tell when things are in focus. Great for manually-focused landscape shots.

Live histograms. Like focus assist, a lot easier to see with an EVF in bright light, can alert you to over/under exposure problems very quickly and even in video.

Adapters mean huge bang for the buck. Mirrorless, especially Sony mirrorless, can easily adapt older SLR lenses of any mount, including long-dead mounts where the lenses are cheap but good. You can buy cheap manual focus lenses and affordable adapters and all you lose is autofocus, but for landscapes and most non-action shots, who cares? Note that older mf-only lenses often have smoother and larger focus throws, allowing you to fine-tune focus more easily than with most af lenses. I recommend the Nikon "E" series as an example; they are designed to be small and light and have optical qualities almost as good as the hefty full-blooded Nikkor lenses.

Long-term you won't need to replace lenses if you buy the right ones now. If you do buy SLR lenses, buy Canon because at least they have adapters that let you use SLR lenses on their mirrorless cameras without too much of an issue (STM lenses especially... non-STM lenses may autofocus slower on Canon's mirrorless systems), unlike Nikon (still no DX mirrorless). You should know that almost everyone will go mirrorless at some point in the coming decades. The pro sports market will probably favor lagless optical viewfinders and high-end PDAF for quite a long time. However, everyone who doesn't need that level of responsiveness will probably wind up with a mirrorless camera in the end simply because mirrorless cheaper to make: no PDAF to calibrate, fewer moving parts, no mirror or pentaprism and OVF assembly. EVFs will presumably keep getting cheaper and have higher refresh rates to reduce lag time. And that's not even considering mirrorless's size/weight advantage. Those claiming SLRs have better handling with long lenses should know that you can make mirrorless cameras bigger and heavier if desired, but it's impossible to shrink DSLRs beyond a certain point, due to the need for flapping mirror.

Among the mirrorless options, I would say that Sony has the best overall system right now, all things considered. They have the top market share in the USA and aren't leaving the market ever since imaging/photography/video is a core business. My second choice would be Canon, but only if you don't want an EVF, and I'm pretty sure you do want one. Anyway, Canon will never leave photography/video as a business unless they go bankrupt or something, so while their buildout of their mirrorless line is slow, the lenses are good quality and you probably won't get stranded. Oly/Panny lose money on cameras and might not always be in cameras, given their CEOs posture on money-losing divisions. They are still safe choices and micro four thirds is almost as good as APS-C if you don't mind the squarer aspect ratio. It's just that they are slightly less safe, that's all. After that there's a huge dropoff... Fuji and Leica are basically specialty makers at this point, going for low volume, high margin products and definitely not bang-for-the-buck products. Ricoh/Pentax's mirrorless is a joke due to tiny sensor. Samsung and the rest are even less committed to the photo/video industry, so there's an even bigger chance of getting stranded if they leave the mirrorless market.

Nikon still has no DX mirrorless so they should be shunned by landscape photographers until they do... the 1" Nikon 1 cameras have less dynamic range, iffy controls, iffy long-exposure options, and cost way more than they should unless you buy the old models on clearance.

Mirrorless has disadvantages as well: EVFs have lag and OVFs do not. But you don't shoot much action. Mirrorless also eats up batteries a lot faster, but the easy solution is to carry spare batteries. AF-capable lens selection is also potentially an issue especially in the telephoto range--but you don't shoot much of it anyway. And if you are willing to go MF, you can adapt a TON of old lenses for cheap.
 
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JohnnyRebel

Senior member
Feb 7, 2011
762
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Is the Fuji X-T1 a so-called mirror-less or 4/3 camera? It seems to have good reviews from Ken Rockwell, though he does not clarify the type of camera it is.

Mirrorless APS-C. Good reviews all around, tracking AF being the biggest minus. Has the best EVF on the market right now, and some reviewers claim that the IQ set the bar for APS-C.

Of interest to you might be the Fuji Velvia film emulation, which is claimed to be pretty darn good with this camera.

Here is a landscape photographer using the Fuji:

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2014/07/02/shooting-the-palouse-with-the-fuji-x-t1-x100s-by-olaf-sztaba/
 
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