Now We All See the Genius of AMD Going Lowend First

[flash-gordon]

I see the whole AMD strategy as a process along the years, and cost then market share on PC space to implement. On consoles the whole ecosystem changes very fast, on PCs don't.

GCN was too forward thinking, it has been underutilized for years, while everybody was bashing it for being inefficient. But under the low level APIs context, it's so flexible and works so well that it gave AMD the whole console market.

The thing is that it really doesn't matter for customers in general and they have the right to demand immediate performance, but we (tech lovers) focus too much on negative side.

 

[Genx87]

Some people might not know this but market share is a huge "KPI" (key performance indicator). CEO's will lose or keep their jobs over that one measure of a company's health. I really can't overstate it. It's h-u-g-e.

It is a good indicator for the CEO. It isnt an indicator to get optimizations.

 

[brandonmatic]

Basically unless you are into drones (I am not), or you want to talk to your house (I don't), or you can afford a Tesla (I can not), or you buy what will quickly be obsolete VR equipment (again cannot waste that kinda dough on the next Betamax) there are no really interesting and dynamic segments in technology left. I got hooked on the VC&G forum last year trying to scratch that itch right as the once exciting mobile segment cooled. But thanks to the Fiji flop this market is getting close to boring as well unless AMD's plans pay off.

That is why I care, and that is why I write about it with passion.

What about a Tesla Model 3? Maybe that could be your next big hobby interest. Maxing out performance, aftermarket modifications, etc. Sounds like fun.

 

[frozentundra123456]

The proof will come in the sales results as always, but I can't see how AMD is a genius. They have 1 mid range desktop card worth buying - no mobile, no high end, no low end really, no professional, no hpc. That card is about to get eclipsed by their competitors response. Doesn't matter how many times people here say the 480 is amazing, it'll still get out sold 4:1+ by the 1060 (which won't just be brand but also because almost certainly the 1060 will be faster in most games played today as well as more power efficient, quieter, etc).

This is obviously not even taking account of the fact AMD is primarily a cpu company, and that market is nose diving to nothing and the great hope next gen zen is no where to be seen.

What AMD have going for them is console revenue (but hardly any profit) and a few hundred million from effectively selling off more of the company (which you can't keep doing).

Yea, agreed. Seems like more of the same old/same old. Always looking for the next great thing to make their products superior while being outperformed in the present with faster and more efficient products from nVidia and especially intel. And like you said, it is not like they are going to have this "low end" gpu market to themselves for very much longer. Obviously, it depends on price/performance/supply for the 1060, but AMD doesnt seem to be able to even supply enough 480s to be able to take maximum advantage of having the segment to themselves for a short period.

 

[swilli89]

Yea, agreed. Seems like more of the same old/same old. Always looking for the next great thing to make their products superior while being outperformed in the present with faster and more efficient products from nVidia and especially intel. And like you said, it is not like they are going to have this "low end" gpu market to themselves for very much longer. Obviously, it depends on price/performance/supply for the 1060, but AMD doesnt seem to be able to even supply enough 480s to be able to take maximum advantage of having the segment to themselves for a short period.

That is ok though! All AMD has to do is keep a sizeable portion of the market. There are only 2 players in town for video cards, and yes the market seems to be stagnating, but there are billions of dollars in this industry and AMD can continue to improve quarter after quarter as long as they remain competitive.

 

[AtenRa]

Always looking for the next great thing to make their products superior while being outperformed in the present with faster and more efficient products from nVidia

I will really like to see reviews comparing $239 RX 480 8GB vs $249 GTX 1060 6GB (No FE) in CURRENT games like Ashes of the Singularity, Rise of The Tomb Rider, HITMAN, Total War : Warhammer, DOOM, Forza Motorsport 6 : Apex, Quantum Brake.

And like you said, it is not like they are going to have this "low end" gpu market to themselves for very much longer. Obviously, it depends on price/performance/supply for the 1060, but AMD doesnt seem to be able to even supply enough 480s to be able to take maximum advantage of having the segment to themselves for a short period.

NVIDIA will not have a lower than GTX 1060 16nm FF card until December, AMD will also have RX 470 at $150 and RX 460 at $100 in late July. Also they already have started production of the next PS4 Neo APUs.
Do you really believe that GP104 ($400-$800) and a single card from GP106 (GTX 1060 FE = $299) will sell more than Polaris 10-11 ($99 to $299) and the Console chips ??
Polaris 10 will dominate the Mobile market from August to December 2016, the competition is at 28nm maxwell, lets see how 28nm Maxwell Laptops will compete on CURRENT games like the above in DX-12/Vulkan against Polaris 10.

 

[krumme]

An estimated 6 million ps4 neo with polaris will ship h2.
If people thinks devs will develop fancy dx12 features like asynch for a few 100k of pascal they are naive. It doesnt really matter its not even practically possible to use the unflexible and very coarse granularity for so called asynh in pascal.
When a 480 is within 10% of a 1070 for 240 usd it seems they are good underway.
Secondly we have several retailers sayimg they had plenty 480 stock and eg Gibbo saying they sold as many 480 on one day as 1 month of 1080.
Guess Q4 will be profitable for amd.

 

[frozentundra123456]

I will really like to see reviews comparing $239 RX 480 8GB vs $249 GTX 1060 6GB (No FE) in CURRENT games like Ashes of the Singularity, Rise of The Tomb Rider, HITMAN, Total War : Warhammer, DOOM, Forza Motorsport 6 : Apex, Quantum Brake.





NVIDIA will not have a lower than GTX 1060 16nm FF card until December, AMD will also have RX 470 at $150 and RX 460 at $100 in late July. Also they already have started production of the next PS4 Neo APUs.
Do you really believe that GP104 ($400-$800) and a single card from GP106 (GTX 1060 FE = $299) will sell more than Polaris 10-11 ($99 to $299) and the Console chips ??
Polaris 10 will dominate the Mobile market from August to December 2016, the competition is at 28nm maxwell, lets see how 28nm Maxwell Laptops will compete on CURRENT games like the above in DX-12/Vulkan against Polaris 10.

Care to guess who will make the most profit? Ultimately, I aslo think the 1060 line will have the most sales as well, compared to 480, but AMD has a head start in this low end segment. Care to guess who will sell the most 300.00 plus gpus till the end of the year?

 

[pj-]

An estimated 6 million ps4 neo with polaris will ship h2.

Estimated by whom? 6 million seems like an incredibly ambitious number for an unpredented half-generation console upgrade of TBD price and launch date.

When a 480 is within 10% of a 1070 for 240 usd it seems they are good underway.

Weren't 290x/390x within 10% of 980 for hundreds less a year ago? How did that work out for AMD?

 

[frozentundra123456]

Estimated by whom? 6 million seems like an incredibly ambitious number for an unpredented half-generation console upgrade of TBD price and launch date.




Weren't 290x/390x within 10% of 980 for hundreds less a year ago? How did that work out for AMD?

Yea, it is only within 10% in a very few (one??) cherry picked game(s) as well.

 

[AtenRa]

Care to guess who will make the most profit? Ultimately, I aslo think the 1060 line will have the most sales as well, compared to 480, but AMD has a head start in this low end segment. Care to guess who will sell the most 300.00 plus gpus till the end of the year?

1. There are no new AMD cards at $300.00 plus.
2. There are no new NV cards at sub $200.00 until December


AMD Polaris 10-11 (99$ to $199) will occupy 66% of the total market + whatever market share $249-299 Custom RX 480 may get.
NV only targets 15% (>199$) market segment with GP106 and 104.

AMD is targeting both profits and market share, this was their strategy for Polaris. NV on the other hand is going for high margins and they will loose marketshare. They dont care now, they were shipping 80% of total dGPUs the last quartes, they can loose market share but gain higher profits.

 

[AtenRa]

Weren't 290x/390x within 10% of 980 for hundreds less a year ago? How did that work out for AMD?

RX 480 is not Hawaii,
no 250W TDP, no blower high noise, no DX-12/Vulkan games at Hawaii release etc etc.
Also RX 480 is at lower price point tha Hawaii was already, Reviews perception about RX 480 is way higher than what first Hawaii reviews were.

 

[3DVagabond]

Care to guess who will make the most profit? Ultimately, I aslo think the 1060 line will have the most sales as well, compared to 480, but AMD has a head start in this low end segment. Care to guess who will sell the most 300.00 plus gpus till the end of the year?

What does that matter to you and me? We're talking about perf/$ and improvements for the end user. Who gives a fling crap about which makes the most money? Only Employees, shills and shareholders would care.

 

[3DVagabond]

Weren't 290x/390x within 10% of 980 for hundreds less a year ago? How did that work out for AMD?

It was excellent for those who bought them. Same will repeat this gen for those bright enough to make the right decision.

 

[96Firebird]

That "Gamers' Sweet Spot" image is from over 6 years ago, my how things change. Back then, the most expensive graphics card was $500 and there was ample competition...

Wonder what an updated chart would look like, since to get more performance you have to spend more money.

 

[PigSkinWhiteBoy]

Yea, it is only within 10% in a very few (one??) cherry picked game(s) as well.

Cherry picking is when people only brought up Tomb Raider to defend Nvidia's horrible dx12 performance knowing the game didn't have async. Now, the common method, is to live in the past (dx11).

Yea, agreed. Seems like more of the same old/same old. Always looking for the next great thing to make their products superior while being outperformed in the present with faster and more efficient products from nVidia and especially intel. And like you said, it is not like they are going to have this "low end" gpu market to themselves for very much longer. Obviously, it depends on price/performance/supply for the 1060, but AMD doesnt seem to be able to even supply enough 480s to be able to take maximum advantage of having the segment to themselves for a short period.

Nvidia's card are performing horribly in dx12 despite costing far more. The only debate now is "but, but AMD doesn't have a top end card out." Despite being last generation, the Fury x is destroying the 1070 with the $230 card being right on its heels.

What does that matter to you and me? We're talking about perf/$ and improvements for the end user. Who gives a fling crap about which makes the most money? Only Employees, shills and shareholders would care.

I don't get this either. Why count another person's money? Their cards have a premium price with budget performance and the only rebuttal is "but, but, they will sell more so there."

I was initially on the 1080 hype train because I want a 4k set up, but since they barely made any, which led to price gouging, I had no choice to sit back and wait. Now, it's looking like Nvidia can barely separate their mid-range card (1070) with AMD's budget card (480).

I cannot see how the 1080ti can possibly beat a Fury Vega when two 480s beat a 1080 in those tweaktown benches. Nvidia only has the Titan and 1080ti left (which is basically a cheaper titan) whereas AMD still has a 490, maybe a 490x, a Fury and maybe a Fury X. One side is basically out of performance upgrades whereas the other is just getting started.

If AMD is smart, they'll have something strong out by the time Battlefield 1 drops.

 

[swilli89]

It was excellent for those who bought them. Same will repeat this gen for those bright enough to make the right decision.

Yep. My 290X gave me TREMENDOUS value, and thus.. BIG SURPRISE, I will gladly buy a Vega when it drops.

 

[Bacon1]

That "Gamers' Sweet Spot" image is from over 6 years ago, my how things change. Back then, the most expensive graphics card was $500 and there was ample competition...

Wonder what an updated chart would look like, since to get more performance you have to spend more money.

There is a newer one from Maxwell, can't find it, but did find this one:

for them pushing the 960.

People have to realize that 980+ owners are the major minority, most people game under at or under 1080p.

 

[AtenRa]

That "Gamers' Sweet Spot" image is from over 6 years ago, my how things change. Back then, the most expensive graphics card was $500 and there was ample competition...

Wonder what an updated chart would look like, since to get more performance you have to spend more money.

This one is only 3 years old,

and this one early this year,

There is no more than 15% market share at the >300$ price point today.

 

[crisium]

That "Gamers' Sweet Spot" image is from over 6 years ago, my how things change. Back then, the most expensive graphics card was $500 and there was ample competition...

Wonder what an updated chart would look like, since to get more performance you have to spend more money.

Agreed, it is grossly outdated.

Even AMD recently said 84% buy $100-$300. And even then, it makes you wonder how the 970 is leading the steam charts when it has been $330 for most of its life.

At any rate there is no way in the modern era only 14% buy more than $200.

That would mean in 2012 dGPU sales that GTX 660, 660 Ti, 670, 680, Radeon 7850, 7870, 7950, 7970 combined added up to a pathetic 14%. All of these cards were $200+ that year. Just what exactly were people buying in 2012?

Take it to 2014- early 2016, and that means 14% included every variant of Hawaii, some Tongas, GTX 970 (Steam favourite) and above, some GTX 960 4GB models, etc. What are people buying that outnumbers all those combined 6:1? 750 Ti is a good seller, but please.

The chart hearkens back to ye olde days of $199 GTX 560.

 

[AtenRa]

Ok this is the latest data,

Mainstream to performance is $99 to $299.

https://www.jonpeddie.com/publications/add-in-board-report

 

[Bacon1]

Ok this is the latest data,

Mainstream to performance is $99 to $299.

https://www.jonpeddie.com/publications/add-in-board-report

FYI what those segments are:

Enthusiast segment

Compared to the overall PC market, the Enthusiast segment accounts for only a relatively small number of unit shipments. However, those systems are among the most expensive and deliver very healthy margins. Enthusiast-class AIBs deliver the highest possible performance and offer the enthusiast or hobbyist the ability to tweak the AIB (e.g. with special cooling and clock
manipulation) to exceed the published specifications.

Enthusiasts pay very little attention to price tags. If the PC or AIB promises the best gaming experience they will be bought, and MSRPs in the category aren’t declining. In fact, recent topend PCs and AIBs on the market have been gaining in price. In our analysis we use Enthusiast AIB’s as the cornerstone but also account for Enthusiast systems as a pricing segment with averages of $2,199 for desktops and $1,977 for notebooks. The minimum ASP to be included in the Enthusiast class is $1800 and this includes a display factor adjusted for gaming motivation and purchasing frequency.

The Enthusiast segment is also referred to as the Extreme segment by some suppliers.

Performance segment

The Performance computer segment isn’t so clear-cut. Some like JPR treat it separately from the higher end Enthusiast category, and others include the Enthusiast category within the Performance segment.

There is overlap between the two, but one of the major points of distinction is that performance machines are sold into the broader markets, advertised as machines for entertainment or high-end professional use. In addition, they are equipped with newer, high-performance graphics chips, but typically not the most powerful.

Often, the performance sector AIBs are the previous generation’s Enthusiast AIB, but they are also built up on lower-cost GPU derivatives of the current top-end GPU part. In our analysis we use Performance AIB’s as the cornerstone but also account for Performance systems as a pricing
segment with averages of $1,551 for desktops and $1,348 for notebooks. The minimum ASP to be included in the Performance class is $1000 and this includes a display factor adjusted for gaming motivation and purchasing frequency.

Mainstream segment

The mainstream category is the largest unit volume and the lowest performance segment. The AIBs used in these systems can be either specially designed (to reduce cost), older generation models, or special versions with GPUs that are higher end but have not passed all the tests to be in the higher classifications (this is one way GPU suppliers manage fab yields and inventory costs.) Mainstream systems and AIBs offer solid capabilities for Internet, gaming, and office productivity applications. We include Value PC’s and GPU’s in the Mainstream segment.

Regardless of their budget people of all economic levels love video games and they serve to influence PC purchases even at the lowest level.

In our analysis we use Mainstream and Value AIB’s as the cornerstone but also account for Mainstream systems as a pricing segment with averages of $775 for desktops and $579 for notebooks. The maximum ASP to be included in the Mainstream class is $1000 and this includes a display factor adjusted for gaming motivation and purchasing frequency.

The Mainstream segment is also referred to as Entry Level or Value segment by some suppliers

http://www.jonpeddie.com/download/P...Performance-PC-Gaming-Market-TOC-Exec-sum.pdf

So those price segment #'s aren't for the GPU itself, but the full system.

 

[frozentundra123456]

What does that matter to you and me? We're talking about perf/$ and improvements for the end user. Who gives a fling crap about which makes the most money? Only Employees, shills and shareholders would care.

So which one are you accusing me of being? FYI I hold no stock in AMD, nVidia, or intel, and I am retired from the federal government, so I guess that means I am a shill, right?

Edit: by the way the title of the thread was that it was "genius" for AMD to go for the "mainstream" performance level. I would assume "genius" would be a strategy that would make a lot of money for the company.

 

[sweetusernames]

Agreed, it is grossly outdated.

Even AMD recently said 84% buy $100-$300. And even then, it makes you wonder how the 970 is leading the steam charts when it has been $330 for most of its life.

At any rate there is no way in the modern era only 14% buy more than $200.

That would mean in 2012 dGPU sales that GTX 660, 660 Ti, 670, 680, Radeon 7850, 7870, 7950, 7970 combined added up to a pathetic 14%. All of these cards were $200+ that year. Just what exactly were people buying in 2012?

Take it to 2014- early 2016, and that means 14% included every variant of Hawaii, some Tongas, GTX 970 (Steam favourite) and above, some GTX 960 4GB models, etc. What are people buying that outnumbers all those combined 6:1? 750 Ti is a good seller, but please.

The chart hearkens back to ye olde days of $199 GTX 560.

I honestly believe that. My view may be skewed by living in a third world Asian country but here a vast majority of gamers here are playing off of iGPUs or GT 740s. I'd love to call sampling bias on Steam Hardware survey but don't know where to start. (I actually never knew steam hardware survey existed until I started reading tech forums.) Also PC gaming is more than Steam, there's League of Legends, LOTS of MMOs, and Blizzard games. Also games like CrossFire are pretty popular.

I can see cards like 750 Ti, 950, 960, 370, 380 outselling cards above them them by huge margins. I don't think the average person looking to play some MOBA, MMO, or FPS is gonna want anything more than that, really.

 

[guachi]

I just got TW:Warhammer and it can run on my Phenom II X4 965 and 5870.

The game defaulted to 1200x800 at low settings when I started it but I changed to 1900x1200 at medium and the game plays okay so far with small/medium battles.

My hardware is ancient and the game is playable, though I think it actually looks worse than TW: Shogun 2 in the graphics department at medium settings.

(I'm waiting for my mobo and CPU that got me the game for free. Electrons travel faster than the FedEx truck. Also waiting for a 480 to be in stock to purchase.)