Now We All See the Genius of AMD Going Lowend First

[The Alias]

That's the same point I am talking about with the 1070, $380 msrp, vs the fury x, $650, as this is the same issue here and you need to compare the 1080 to it to be even close really unless the 1070 ti is released.



Except the 1070 did beat the fury x and even the titan x until this vulkan update and even then the list of games supporting it is absolutely tiny so unless that is fixed and dx 12 still continues to be the main runner it wont be as big a issue as even though amd does clearly get a boost in dx 12 right now it's not a big enough deal to be a issue with nvidia until we see what vega does in 2017.

The rx480 is a replacement for 380/960 class cards not 390/980 class cards. So your original question should be why doesn't the 480 outperform the 970? To which your answer would be it already does. However that would not fit the way you're trying to spin things now would it?

 

[poofyhairguy]

The problem for AMD is that nVidia will soon have a competitor for the 480 and lower range, while AMD will not have a competitor for 1080/1080Ti/Titan for many months yet. And based on the results of the power use of the 480, they may have a very difficult time ever matching nVidia on the high end. They played their cards well, but calling it "genius" is a bit much, when you have no competitive product in the most profitable segment.

Seems like their chances of matching Nvidia will be easier in the Directx12 era.

I mean sure you are correct best case would be a high-end GPU that beats the 1080 in current Directx11 games but that isn't possible. AMD tried and failed with Fiji.

I admire a poor kid who plays his cards right and becomes a millionaire more than a millionaire's kid who becomes a multiple millionaire because the guys managing his trust fund are smart. But that is just me.

 

[Newbian]

The rx480 is a replacement for 380/960 class cards not 390/980 class cards. So your original question should be why doesn't the 480 outperform the 970? To which your answer would be it already does. However that would not fit the way you're trying to spin things now would it?

Except I clearly said in a previous post it applies to a step up in cards for the newer gens to as we see the rx 480 does with the 390 / 970 for the most part and the 1070 beating titan x and even 980 ti unless it's heavily oc and even then that's just for base 1070 currently and it not oc or in 6+ months as it should be even higher for the 1070 so the 1070 does it similar by beating their step ups just like the rx 480 does.

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

Eh? the 480 and the 1070 are NOT in the same category or price, why do you think that AMD should be having a product that can beat something that costs more than double? Yes, it would be nice for consumers, but, that isn't what is going on here.

You are saying that AMD should have a "gameworks" type of library, and stuff that into the DX12 specs?
No way would MS allow or even want to do that! It makes 0 sense to do such a thing on a standard library.

No but they're similar in terms of enabled die size ...

The way I see it AMD needs to atleast match Nvidia in terms of perf/die space in the case of DX12/Vulkan etc or else they have a dead end with their architecture cause Nvidia is relentless when exceeding AMD's expectations and Pascal is a very good overclocker so that aspect will most likely transfer to their new microarchitectures as well since they prefer more narrow GPU designs ...

Yes, I think AMD should have a GameWorks equivalent if it means making them more competitive and they took that first step by pushing async compute in DX12 despite AMD having the minority share in both integrated AND dedicated GPUs so there's no reason to believe that ISVs can't play favourites ...

Afterall, AMD getting into consoles is for their own other corporate interests ASIDE from profits ...

For AMD, consoles are seen as an INVESTMENT, not something that they can sustain on so they expect to be paid back in terms of hardware features exposed in APIs along with engine level optimizations on PC ...

AMD should try to get a stronger influence of the D3D12 spec if they can since that was the whole point of their console wins ...

 

[3DVagabond]

Oh, they do have a long term plan. But I used to doubt whether they can remain afloat until their plan pays off. With the PS4 Neo & Scorpio on Polaris APU, that's no longer an issue.

The first phase really is console GCN optimization making its way to PC games. Even DX11 titles, if optimized for GCN, especially in shader code and wavefront scheduling, means a big difference (Battlefront, Far Cry Primal, Rainbow Six etc) for GCN performance on PC. Interestingly, as soon as you optimize for GCN, you neuter Kepler badly (~33%) and slightly neuter Maxwell.

This has meant that NV needs to sponsor the PC port and get devs to optimize it back, which is where GameWorks closed libraries came in. It's NV's code. The game has to be able to run it well so the game's optimization needs to cater to GW.

If AMD & NV don't sponsor the port, you get a game optimized for GCN naturally due to the console development.

DX12 & Vulkan is the next phase, and we're entering that era nowadays.

The final phase will be multi-small dies, think Navi, on an interposer, presenting as a single GPU to DX12 & Vulkan. It's basically multi-GPU but without the latency penalty and overhead.

Good video series for those who aren't aware of AMD's plan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ktLeS4Fwlw

I put the lack of driver optimizations by nVidia as the reason for the massive tanking of Kepler. It didn't just start with Doom. nVidia is so sure of their position that not only do they charge exorbitant prices (successfully I might add) for their mid range GPU but they actually tack on an extra $50 to $100 for the first release reference models. They want to give nobody a reason to hold onto their old cards. Not only do they want them to dump their old cards for their new ones, but they want them to dump their "new" ones for even newer ones in a few months. And they have gotten away with it the prior 2 gens and are simply rinse/repeating this gen. And why not if people are willing to go along? Blows my mind that the masses continue to fall for it.

Those who have $1k-$1.5K to spend on cards every few months that's fine for. I don't understand the bulk of the buyers being willing though.

 

[3DVagabond]

I disagree that that they don't need to launch higher end cards soon. All those people waiting for something faster than a 290 or 980 have no choice really but nvidia. I myself would rather buy a 1070 right now if the ethereum mining results were better on win10. Amd is not giving me a choice to buy their cards.

There are always people who need a new card.It's not like the GP104 is going to saturate the market and sales for that segment are going to stop.

 

[3DVagabond]

Yeah, I'm sure the 3.5GB RAM-gate fiasco around the GTX 970 was a tending topic for a while, too. GTX 970 is now the single most popular GPU on Steam, with the GTX 960 (which many on these forums and elsewhere have constantly derided) in second.

Anyway, we'll see how it all plays out, but I have to agree with the general sentiment put out there by renderstate: the RX 480 was hyped to the moon and it disappointed (I remember even you were disappointed in it despite having bought a pair of the cards). In many ways, the GTX 1060 turned out to be everything that some of the optimists around RX 480 had hoped for.

Now we get one game in which the developer clearly put a ton of extra work into writing a code path for AMD, and all of a sudden we have people coming out and saying that NVIDIA is about to lose market share big time and AMD will be the prime beneficiary.

I missed this. Where did you read it?

 

[3DVagabond]

If that was true then why doesn't the rx 480 beat the 980 ti?

Just because one card is a newer gen does not mean it will beat all of the last gen cards instantly especially with such a huge price / performance difference.

They can beat the cards they are paired up in price or even a step up as we saw with the 1070 beating the 980 / titan and even the ti unless the ti was very oc.

Or in the case of the rx 480 beating the 970 is many cases and it being in the 390 / 390x area.

It's not the release price. It's the price they both are currently selling for. You can currently buy Fury X for $400. It's $420 for a 1070. The Fury X is cooler and quieter thanks to it's AIO liquid cooling (Or doesn't that matter anymore?).

We start seeing more results like this and the 1070 could be in trouble.

 

[coercitiv]

We start seeing more results like this and the 1070 could be in trouble.

From the ashes of Vulkan, a new card is... reborn.

 

[krumme]

It's not the release price. It's the price they both are currently selling for. You can currently buy Fury X for $400. It's $420 for a 1070. The Fury X is cooler and quieter thanks to it's AIO liquid cooling (Or doesn't that matter anymore?).

We start seeing more results like this and the 1070 could be in trouble.

Well 1070 is not im trouble because a fiji hbm is faster but because a 480 is only 10% slower.

If low fps is better on vulcan and framevariance is better 480 is already the better gaming experience.

 

[krumme]

This is just the 7870 beeing faster than 680. The difference is just the wave of new dx12 vulcan games comming so fast this time.

Its damn crazy to buy pascal now just on the brink of new engines driving the new gen of aaa games.

 

[sweetusernames]

The real surprise here to me is 1070 vs R9 Nano in Doom Vulkan, a 16nmFF chip being so close in power efficiency to a 28nm chip.

 

[coercitiv]

Its damn crazy to buy pascal now just on the brink of new engines driving the new gen of aaa games.

1070/1080 are not crazy options, they are the only option.

It's one thing to cheer for the really nice results GCN is getting in new games, and a completely different animal to say buying Pascal is crazy.

We may have a heated competition with 1060 vs. RX 480, but that's about it.

 

[Reid Hershel]

The real surprise here to me is 1070 vs R9 Nano in Doom Vulkan, a 16nmFF chip being so close in power efficiency to a 28nm chip.

this. D:

 

[krumme]

1070/1080 are not crazy options, they are the only option.

It's one thing to cheer for the really nice results GCN is getting in new games, and a completely different animal to say buying Pascal is crazy.

We may have a heated competition with 1060 vs. RX 480, but that's about it.

Yep should have written if your priority was comming aaa dx12/vulcan games. If your priority is your existing dx11 library then ofcource 1070 makes sense if you have the money.

A meager 10% difference does not make sense. It just doesnt. But ofcource it depens on what is priority but i guess most buy gfx for the comming aaa games and then its imo crazy to go 1070.

Back when discussing mantle i expected Maxwell to have more features fitted for thin api. Then it turned out it didnt. And it was a surprice to me pascal didnt do it either. For maxwell it didnt really matter because hey 2 years passed wihtout much happening. But now its dx12/vulcan time.

It is imo crazy to buy 1070 if your priority is the new sleeve of games.

 

[Flapdrol1337]

The real surprise here to me is 1070 vs R9 Nano in Doom Vulkan, a 16nmFF chip being so close in power efficiency to a 28nm chip.

If you'd underclock/undervolt a 1080 to r9 nano performance I doubt it'd be close.

 

[Thinker_145]

Yep should have written if your priority was comming aaa dx12/vulcan games. If your priority is your existing dx11 library then ofcource 1070 makes sense if you have the money.

A meager 10% difference does not make sense. It just doesnt. But ofcource it depens on what is priority but i guess most buy gfx for the comming aaa games and then its imo crazy to go 1070.

Back when discussing mantle i expected Maxwell to have more features fitted for thin api. Then it turned out it didnt. And it was a surprice to me pascal didnt do it either. For maxwell it didnt really matter because hey 2 years passed wihtout much happening. But now its dx12/vulcan time.

It is imo crazy to buy 1070 if your priority is the new sleeve of games.

Now now let's not go bonkers crazy here. Doom is just one game and 1070 is still nevertheless faster than RX 480. Some benchmarks are showing a bigger difference so I dunno what's up with that. We always have had titles favouring one company let's not get ridiculous. There are only 3 games with Vulkan and only 1 game which shows such a difference, that should be enough to not go overboard with these results not to mention nobody knows what the future support will be.

What alternative do you suggest other than buying a 1070? It's still faster than 480 and if you wanna cherry pick benchmarks I could show you games where the 1070 is 90% faster than 480, OC vs OC the difference can go to 100% in certain titles.

The Fury X? Well ya talking about future proofing and a card with 4GB ram? Excuse me if I don't take that seriously.

 

[vissarix]

:awe:LMAO Geniuses of Amd?:awe:

Amd doesnt have a plan, they are just overwhelmed by Nvidia.

they released a semi-fail rx480 which will have to compete with a faster and more power efficient gtx1060....also they doesnt have anything to counter the gtx1070, gtx1080...thats just terrible for them, it couldnt get worse then this.

 

[Silverforce11]

:awe:LMAO Geniuses of Amd?:awe:

Amd doesnt have a plan, they are just overwhelmed by Nvidia.

they released a semi-fail rx480 which will have to compete with a faster and more power efficient gtx1060....also they doesnt have anything to counter the gtx1070, gtx1080...thats just terrible for them, it couldnt get worse then this.

Well you're actually wrong. It was worse than this a few quarters ago. They have been slowly gaining marketshare, all on obsolete 28nm stuff. Let's see how the figures for Q3 and Q4 marketshare stack up.

Then you can perhaps be man enough to come back and apologize for wrongfully trolling, again.

 

[itsmydamnation]

I honestly have to wonder what the supply side is like for NV? There are alot of customers for those 14nm TMSC wafers to go around and NV already has 1 massive chip , 1 quite large chip and soon with gp106 a medium sized chip.

On the other side of the fance AMD look to be having no issues supplying 480 chips and with how small the cutdown is between 480 and 470 you have assume good yields..........

 

[Flapdrol1337]

Now now let's not go bonkers crazy here. Doom is just one game and 1070 is still nevertheless faster than RX 480. Some benchmarks are showing a bigger difference so I dunno what's up with that. We always have had titles favouring one company let's not get ridiculous. There are only 3 games with Vulkan and only 1 game which shows such a difference, that should be enough to not go overboard with these results not to mention nobody knows what the future support will be.

What alternative do you suggest other than buying a 1070? It's still faster than 480 and if you wanna cherry pick benchmarks I could show you games where the 1070 is 90% faster than 480, OC vs OC the difference can go to 100% in certain titles.

The Fury X? Well ya talking about future proofing and a card with 4GB ram? Excuse me if I don't take that seriously.

Sure, if you want something faster than a 480 I guess nvdia is the obvious choice.

But if you don't the 480 is the better buy since amd is selling them for prices that are competitive in dx11 games, while having a big bonus in some dx12/vulkan games.

 

[guskline]

Perhaps the phase "Necessity is the Mother of all Invention" is applicable to this thread.

Sr. VP Raja and others realized that AMD was way behind, and apparently kicked some tails to get where they are.

I applaud AMD and RTG for taking this tack, their other choice was to wither away.

From my own perspective, I decided to opt for a GTX 1080 now instead of "waiting for Vega".

From my knowledge of AMD (I bought an AMD 386/40 to hop up my Intel 386/33!), I have seen them slip to "wait for this and that"

The RX480, despite some early PCI-E issues, appears to be a compelling product, performance and price wise for AMD/RTG.

Nvidia isn't "asleep at the switch; they know this.

I would caution my AMD brethren that false hope about Vega forging AMD ahead will likely be dashed by the GTX 1080TI or whatever Nvidia calls it.

Raja is very smart trying to gain market share first and then focus on the high end.

 

[William Gaatjes]

The genius plan is the consoles wins if you even consider it to be when their not exactly thriving right now, it's not AMD getting first to the lower end ...

The hardware that dominates consoles will dictate gfx APIs and game development ...

The new console hardware updates especially from Microsoft are much needed wins at AMD's discretion as it'll make it easier for them to petition for more newer GCN hardware features into the core of DirectX ...

What AMD doesn't need is the holier than thou attitude that some people here paint them for, what AMD needs is a non-vendor agnostic gfx API from Microsoft on the PC space so that means bringing more features from Xbox's customized DirectX API to PC ...

You are forgetting the input from AMD working together with Sony. Although many see Sony as an outsider when it comes to the pc camp, Sony has a lot of experience in game development and analyzing bottle necks in hardware and software. CELL programming for the PS3 has been in the end a real boost in developing proper hardware and software with as little bottle necks as possible for Sony. AMD (ATI, RTG, ArtX) , being one of the industry leaders in graphics, has alot of experience in the same field.
Microsoft adopted what was clearly for them a very cheap but ready available advantage. A very smart move indeed.

 

[Silverforce11]

@guskline

AMD doesn't need to win on the PC. They just need to be competitive. Without Vega that just isn't happening at the high end for them, yet.

But if AMD is competitive on the PC, with their domination of consoles, it's a good position to be in. Certainly Zen and Polaris/Vega could be much better than the years prior on Faildozer and Hawaii/Fiji.

 

[Glo.]

AMD is doing what Nvidia did with Maxwell. GTX 750 Ti was huge hit.

RX 480 and especially RX 470 are phenomenal value for what they offer in price/performance.