NRA in turmoil, gun manufacturers going bankrupt, Thanks Trump

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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
We don't change things like our Constitution, or any laws really, on the hope that they will solve some problem. It requires at lest SOME evidence that it will likely achieve the desired results. And it has to not be overly burdensome on the rights of law abiding citizens. We don't pass laws in this country on feels and hopes.

Yes, it is a damn shame that we have no evidence that strict gun control works. It would be really helpful if, just as a crazy example, every other modern nation did it first so we could see if it works or not. We really need to study this more closely to see if removing guns from circulation would work to stop people from using guns to commit mass murder. How would we do such research. Impossible! Give up.

First off, fuck you for trying to imply that gun-owners are bigots, misogynists and anti-democratic. And don't tell me you're not. If you want to debate at least do it honestly.

I'm not implying that. I'm a gun owner. I'm stating flat out that our founding fathers were bigots, misogynists and anti-democratic by the standards that we now hold. I'm flat out stating that they made a shit ton of mistakes and sometimes it is best to simply ignore what they intended.

Secondly, the will of the American people changed those archaic laws for the better. We've grown s a culture and equality is the law of the land now. This is a good thing.

Yup, and we have a chance to do that again.

Thirdly, we have plenty of gun control laws on the books and murder is already illegal. It's even punishable by death in many places. But sick/evil/criminal folks still kill regardless.
Exactly my point. You can't stop people from killing, that is not the goal, that was never the goal. All you can do is limit how many they can kill before you can stop them.

But I'm not supporting disarming the 99.9+% of law-abiding gun owners who are not the problem just so you can test out your theory that the sick/evil/criminal folks will follow our example.

You know this can be said about anything? Most people are not criminals, so why bother having laws at all? Why bother outlawing murder since murders will not follow the law?
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
well regulated voters arent in the constitution.
But gun rights for citizens sure are. Seems you only like the parts of the constitution you agree with. If you have the votes to change it go ahead. Otherwise, respect democracy.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
Reactions: DarthKyrie

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
i mean no wonder the gun industry is in a bad place. This poser has like 40 guns already. Like how many more can he buy?
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,852
8,314
136
We don't change things like our Constitution, or any laws really, on the hope that they will solve some problem. It requires at lest SOME evidence that it will likely achieve the desired results. And it has to not be overly burdensome on the rights of law abiding citizens. We don't pass laws in this country on feels and hopes.
Says you, obviously a constitutional law scholar. Wherefore is your credence? This term I keep hearing "law abiding citizens" creeps me out every time I hear it. It's a smoke screen that people use to hide behind. Seems that way more than 1/2 the perpetrators of mass murders with guns are in the possession of guns that were purchased "legally." They were "law abiding" until they weren't. Guns shouldn't be available for anyone anywhere to "own" legally. They should be tightly regulated to that degree.

Someone blew some smoke up your ass.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
But gun rights for citizens sure are. Seems you only like the parts of the constitution you agree with. If you have the votes to change it go ahead. Otherwise, respect democracy.

No they aren't; the word 'gun' doesn't even appear in the constitution.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Says you, obviously a constitutional law scholar. Wherefore is your credence? This term I keep hearing "law abiding citizens" creeps me out every time I hear it. It's a smoke screen that people use to hide behind. Seems that way more than 1/2 the perpetrators of mass murders with guns are in the possession of guns that were purchased "legally." They were "law abiding" until they weren't. Guns shouldn't be available for anyone anywhere to "own" legally. They should be tightly regulated to that degree.

Someone blew some smoke up your ass.

"law abiding citizen" is just the no true Scotsman fallacy. It would be comical if it didn't have horrible outcomes. These people are shit, willing to let children die so they can polish their poser ass guns and dream about killing the government in some weird power fetish.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
Says you, obviously a constitutional law scholar. Wherefore is your credence? This term I keep hearing "law abiding citizens" creeps me out every time I hear it. It's a smoke screen that people use to hide behind. Seems that way more than 1/2 the perpetrators of mass murders with guns are in the possession of guns that were purchased "legally." They were "law abiding" until they weren't. Guns shouldn't be available for anyone anywhere to "own" legally. They should be tightly regulated to that degree.

Someone blew some smoke up your ass.

My credentials? Can't debate the subject so attack your opponent?

In America every person is entitled to due process under the law and is considered innocent until proven guilty. Law abiding citizens are folks who haven't broken the law. I don't understand why you are so shocked that you can't just strip citizens of constitutional rights when they've committed no crime. It boggles my mind. And , yes, everyone is considered law abiding until they've broken the law. You don't need to be a constitutional scholar to understand these simple concepts. They are the building blocks of our (relatively) free society.

Or are you suggesting we allow the government to strip away citizen's constitution rights without evidence of a crime and legal due process? You would actually want that??? What if they go after free speech next? Or the right to freely assemble? Or freedom of religion?

What creeps me out is when folks are willing to give up their hard-won rights for the illusion of safety. But I'm talking to the wind because you are so anti-gun that you'd give anything to see it happen, even if all you achieve is disarming those who've done nothing wrong.

Then again, if you have the votes to strike the 2A from our constitution please go ahead and do it. I respect democracy and the voice of the people. Why don't you?
 
Last edited:

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
My credentials? Can't debate the subject so attack your opponent?

In America every person is entitled to due process under the law and is considered innocent until proven guilty. Law abiding citizens are folks who haven't broken the law. I don't understand why you are so shocked that you can't just strip citizens of constitutional rights when they've committed no crime. It boggles my mind. And , yes, everyone is considered law abiding until they've broken the law. You don't need to be a constitutional scholar to understand these simple concepts. They are the building blocks of our (relatively) free society.

Or are you suggesting we allow the government to strip away citizen's constitution rights without proof or evidence or due process? You would actually want that??? What if they go after free speech next? Or the right to freely assemble? Or freedom of religion?

What creeps me out is when folks are willing to give up their hard-won rights for the illusion of safety. But I'm talking to the wind because you are so anti-gun that you'd give anything to see it happen, even if all you achieve is disarming those who've done nothing wrong.

Then again, if you have the votes to strike the 2A from our constitution then go ahead and do it.

You are assuming its a constitutional right. Well regulated militia means something.

You are in luck though. With the stolen supreme court this will never be an issue. More children will die while you enjoy your poser lifestyle.
 
Reactions: Muse

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,034
2,613
136
My credentials? Can't debate the subject so attack your opponent?

In America every person is entitled to due process under the law and is considered innocent until proven guilty. Law abiding citizens are folks who haven't broken the law. I don't understand why you are so shocked that you can't just strip citizens of constitutional rights when they've committed no crime. It boggles my mind. And , yes, everyone is considered law abiding until they've broken the law. You don't need to be a constitutional scholar to understand these simple concepts. They are the building blocks of our (relatively) free society.

Or are you suggesting we allow the government to strip away citizen's constitution rights without proof or evidence or due process? You would actually want that??? What if they go after free speech next? Or the right to freely assemble? Or freedom of religion?

What creeps me out is when folks are willing to give up their hard-won rights for the illusion of safety. But I'm talking to the wind because you are so anti-gun that you'd give anything to see it happen, even if all you achieve is disarming those who've done nothing wrong.

Then again, if you have the votes to strike the 2A from our constitution then go ahead and do it.
I think there are plenty of perfectly safe countries that don't have rampant gun proliferation and also don't have to worry about government oppression. The idea that an armed populace is a free populace is a complete myth. The UK, Denmark etc are even more free than we are by most standards, have been around as countries for much longer and certainly are much less armed. Go ask a British citizen of he's afraid the government is coming for his rights because he doesn't have an AR 15 and he will laugh in your face and walk away quickly.

The 2a was meant to serve as defense against an oppressive government and it has morphed into something completely ridiculous. Even more so if you actually use your gun rights to "defend yourself against the government" you are going to jail. Period. So stop spouting that horse shit. 99% of gun owners are buying them for fun. Let's be honest. I don't have a problem with people having guns for fun but let's not make it seem to be some holy crusade to protect other people's rights or something.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
they lay in bed jacking off t the idea that they will kill government employees one day. These are the "law abiding citizens" like wtf?
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
"law abiding citizen" is just the no true Scotsman fallacy. It would be comical if it didn't have horrible outcomes. These people are shit, willing to let children die so they can polish their poser ass guns and dream about killing the government in some weird power fetish.

Yeah, the concept of there being a difference between folks who obey the law and folks who break the law is a no true Scotsman fallacy. Riiiight. Fuck individual responsibility and holding people accountable for their actions. Better to blame and judge the whole group based on the bad actions of a small few. Some folks try to do that to minorities, LGBTQ, women and other groups. I think it's called ignorance and discrimination.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
No they aren't; the word 'gun' doesn't even appear in the constitution.
No, it's there. You don't have to trust me, you can read it for yourself. HINT: (they may not have actually used the word "gun.")
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Yeah, the concept of there being a difference between folks who obey the law and folks who break the law is a no true Scotsman fallacy. Riiiight. Fuck individual responsibility and holding people accountable for their actions. Better to blame and judge the whole group based on the bad actions of a small few. Some folks try to do that to minorities, LGBTQ, women and other groups. I think it's called ignorance and discrimination.

hey everyone we will obey the laws as long as we like them. But if you pass a law we dont like we will kill you. Yee haw Im smart man.

We law abiding poser hillbilly alt right trash says so.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
You are assuming its a constitutional right. Well regulated militia means something.

You are in luck though. With the stolen supreme court this will never be an issue. More children will die while you enjoy your poser lifestyle.
I think you should melt down all your computers, tablets and phones to make a body shield for a 3rd-grader to keep in his backpack. The life you save would be worth us missing out on your thoughtful arguments.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
hey everyone we will obey the laws as long as we like them. But if you pass a law we dont like we will kill you. Yee haw Im smart man.

We law abiding poser hillbilly alt right trash says so.
I sense much anger in this one. I hope he doesn't own a gun.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
I think you should melt down all your computers, tablets and phones to make a body shield for a 3rd-grader to keep in his backpack. The life you save would be worth us missing out on your thoughtful arguments.

Damn. Thats a pretty cold thing to say about some little kid dying scared and alone. Do you consider yourself a good person? Because you arent.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
i alwasy thought that gun owners actually cared that kids die but I guess they are so desensitized that they literally don't care. That would explain the total lack of action to solve the problem.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
you can have a fucking well maintain musket bitch.

I'm saving up for one, but it will have rifling in the barrel and technically not be a musket. Muskets are smoothbore. It will probably be a flintlock Pennsylvania style long rifle with a full stock.

I've also got a .50 caliber percussion Hawken style rifle, but I had to mail it off to my machinist father to have him drill out a buggered up barrel screw. I'm a terrible gunsmith. And I've got a couple of really cool cap and ball pistols. An 1858 Remington style New Army and an 1851 Colt style Navy, both in .44 caliber.

If you ever make it to North Idaho you should come over and we'll go up to the range.

But, to address your point, then I guess free speech only applies to the spoken and written word, and not any other forms of communication that have been invented since. We all gotta play by the same rules.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
Damn. Thats a pretty cold thing to say about some little kid dying scared and alone. Do you consider yourself a good person? Because you arent.
You are the one denying him his life-saving shield. That mythical kid needs it badly!!! Think of the children!!!
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
all of those cildren lost their lives so you can go play in the woods with your cock.
 
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