Nuclear Physics Theory: What would happen?

Spikesoldier

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 2001
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What would happen if one were to take a pure plutonium sphere the size of a basketball, and throw it into an active volcano?
 

LongTimePCUser

Senior member
Jul 1, 2000
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I think that a sphere of plutonium that size would have already exceeded critical mass.
In other words, as you start to walk to the volcano, it would explode.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
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You would score the winning point and then die a few hours later if by some miracle the thing didn't already explode. All it takes is a ball about the size of your two fists to reach critical mass.
 
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Sunny129

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2000
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I think that a sphere of plutonium that size would have already exceeded critical mass.
In other words, as you start to walk to the volcano, it would explode.
You would score the winning point and then die a few hours later if by some miracle the thing didn't already explode. All it takes is a ball about the size of your two fists to reach critical mass.
but why does simply meeting or exceeding the critical mass cause an explosion? is it that the spontaneous fission of some of the plutonium atoms (and therefore the release of some free neutrons) is enough to start the fission chain reaction on its own?
 

tommo123

Platinum Member
Sep 25, 2005
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maybe it's like hydrogen? enough pressure/heat kickstarts the fusion process off?
 

aphelion02

Senior member
Dec 26, 2010
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I would swoop in to grab the plutonium from you; and sell it to Iran, North Korea, and other rogue states for billions.
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
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but why does simply meeting or exceeding the critical mass cause an explosion? is it that the spontaneous fission of some of the plutonium atoms (and therefore the release of some free neutrons) is enough to start the fission chain reaction on its own?
particles decay all the time, in the case of plutonium and uranium it's enough to begin the chain reaction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_fission

after that you generate neutrons that hit atoms and you get even more of them.

So yeah, if you have critical mass the volcano doesn't matter.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
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but why does simply meeting or exceeding the critical mass cause an explosion? is it that the spontaneous fission of some of the plutonium atoms (and therefore the release of some free neutrons) is enough to start the fission chain reaction on its own?


One way to think about it is that the atoms are unstable and constantly exploding. The entire atom doesn't blow up, but bits and pieces fly off. We call this radioactive decay and when it is just a few atoms the explosions are too small for people to notice. However, put enough exploding atoms together and you get a chain reaction where one exploding atom causes the next one to explode and so on until the whole mess goes boom.
 

Veramocor

Senior member
Mar 2, 2004
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I think that a sphere of plutonium that size would have already exceeded critical mass.
In other words, as you start to walk to the volcano, it would explode.

The plutonium of that size would be critical and start a chain reaction given off neutrons and radiation, however, it would not explode. The heat of the nuclear reaction would expand the basketball until it was no longer critical.

That is why you need explosives around the plutonium sphere to compress it such that you counteract the expansion force. The explosives have to be perfectly timed and positioned.


Dumping the plutonium basketball into the volcano would just melt it and dilute it into the magma.
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
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I'm sure that in 1985 plutonium is available in every corner drug store, but in 1955 it's a little hard to come by.
 

kevinsbane

Senior member
Jun 16, 2010
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You would die a quick death in the next few days. As said above, that much plutonium would be above critical mass. Would probably explode violently, but not kiloton style mushroom cloud effect. If it didn't explode, you would receive a lethal dose of radiation poisoning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core

That core was much smaller than a basketball, and emitted enough radiation in a half second of criticality that the guy died in 9 days.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,709
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I remember reading a Hardy boys book (it was one of the later series of books... hardy boys casefiles) about this. AFAIK it was a story that took place over three novels and had the evil guy planning on putting a nuke into a volcano in the south pacific. Blowing the nuke up on a plate boundary would cause half of California to fall into the ocean and cause earthquakes and volcanos to go nutso all around the pacific rim. Or so the story went anyways.
 
Mar 10, 2005
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I remember reading a Hardy boys book (it was one of the later series of books... hardy boys casefiles) about this. AFAIK it was a story that took place over three novels and had the evil guy planning on putting a nuke into a volcano in the south pacific. Blowing the nuke up on a plate boundary would cause half of California to fall into the ocean and cause earthquakes and volcanos to go nutso all around the pacific rim. Or so the story went anyways.

no, that was one of those really shitty superman movies
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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but why does simply meeting or exceeding the critical mass cause an explosion? is it that the spontaneous fission of some of the plutonium atoms (and therefore the release of some free neutrons) is enough to start the fission chain reaction on its own?

At critical mass, exactly one neutron per fission is able to induce one more fission. You get a stable chain reaction, which carries on at a steady rate. This is how nuclear reactors are operated.

Above critical mass, more than one neutron released per fission is able to induce more fission - hence you get a exponentially accelerating chain reaction.

The critical mass is dependent on the surface area/volume ratio and other geometric factors. In a narrow, long cylinder, there's a high chance that neutrons exit the material without inducing fission. A sphere provides the most efficient surface area/volume ratio, so neutrons have the lowest chance of escaping without inducing another fission - and therefore the critical mass is lowest for a sphere. The critical mass can also be lowered, by using neutron reflectors to allow escaped neutrons to return to the fissile material.

Because the chain reaction depends on something starting the chain, there is potentially a brief delay before an uncontrolled reaction begins, once a supra-critical core is assembled. The amount of delay depends on how many background neutrons are present in, or around, the core. Neutrons are available from spontaneous fission of the fissile material, or from a variety of radioactive interactions (e.g. interactions between atoms and alpha particles, or gamma rays. A beryllium atom hit by an alpha particle will emit a neutron, or a deuterium atom hit by a high-energy gamma ray will emit a neutron).

In the case of ultra-highly enriched U235, the spontaneous fission rate is negligible, and the isotopic purification process will remove most other contaminants. Such weapons grade uranium has may experience a significant delay of many microseconds before a rapid chain reaction begins. The traditional design uses 2 hemispheres of material assembled into a sphere using explosive charges - this relatively slow assembly process is satisfactory, as the core will have assembled fully before the chain reaction begins, leading to a very powerful explosion. Some designs have had problems, because the mechanical shock of core assembly led to the core bouncing apart before the chain reaction began, leading to a failed detonation. Later designs included neutron generators (usually mixtures of an alpha emitter and beryllium, which were activated by an explosive charge) to ensure that the chain reaction initiated.

A similar problem can be seen in nuclear reactors started for the first time on fresh fuel. There may not be enough neutron generating contaminants in the fuel, to get the chain reaction started in a reasonable period of time, while appropriate levels of control are maintained. Therefore the first starting of a nuclear reactor may require 'startup rods' which contain neutron generating materials (e.g. alpha emitter/beryllium mixtures, or small amounts of plutonium-238). If used fuel is present in the reactor, then startup rods aren't required, as the partially irradiated fuel will produce enough neutrons via spontaneous fission, alpha/gamma interactions, etc.

In the case of plutonium, Pu-240 has a high spont. fission rate, and Pu-238 exceedingly high spontaneous fission rate. These contaminants introduce huge numbers of neutrons into a plutonium fissile core. The core assembly technique above won't work for Pu, as the chain reaction will begin well before the cores are fully assembled, giving a weak explosion - estimated at about 1 kiloton. Therefore a much faster method is required - hence plutonium cores are imploded from a low-density form into a high-density form using a series of shaped high-explosive charges.
 

kevinsbane

Senior member
Jun 16, 2010
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In the case of plutonium, Pu-240 has a high spont. fission rate, and Pu-238 exceedingly high spontaneous fission rate. These contaminants introduce huge numbers of neutrons into a plutonium fissile core. The core assembly technique above won't work for Pu, as the chain reaction will begin well before the cores are fully assembled, giving a weak explosion - estimated at about 1 kiloton. Therefore a much faster method is required - hence plutonium cores are imploded from a low-density form into a high-density form using a series of shaped high-explosive charges.

Couldn't you use pure Pu-239 for this thought experiment? Granted, the mechanics wouldn't change that much (the ball of Pu would blow up in your hands, or, barring the highly unlikely chance of that not happening, you would receive a lethal dose of radiation in the time it would take to pick it up).

Of course... a ball of plutonium the size of a basketball would weigh ~58 kg; good luck throwing that.
 

Sunny129

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2000
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Because the chain reaction depends on something starting the chain, there is potentially a brief delay before an uncontrolled reaction begins, once a supra-critical core is assembled. The amount of delay depends on how many background neutrons are present in, or around, the core. Neutrons are available from spontaneous fission of the fissile material, or from a variety of radioactive interactions (e.g. interactions between atoms and alpha particles, or gamma rays. A beryllium atom hit by an alpha particle will emit a neutron, or a deuterium atom hit by a high-energy gamma ray will emit a neutron...

...In the case of plutonium, Pu-240 has a high spont. fission rate, and Pu-238 exceedingly high spontaneous fission rate. These contaminants introduce huge numbers of neutrons into a plutonium fissile core. The core assembly technique above won't work for Pu, as the chain reaction will begin well before the cores are fully assembled, giving a weak explosion - estimated at about 1 kiloton. Therefore a much faster method is required - hence plutonium cores are imploded from a low-density form into a high-density form using a series of shaped high-explosive charges.
this answers my question. thanks Mark. i'm actually more familiar with detonation methods than i am with why the nuclear reaction begins. but you've since cleared that up. i also found a diagram depicting the two methods of detonation of a fission bomb which, as you mention, depends on the type of core used (courtesy of Wiki):




*EDIT* - i see i i got some shorter answers to my question earlier in the thread - thanks everyone...just wanted to confirm that it had something to do with nuclear decay...
 
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WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
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What would happen if one were to take a pure plutonium sphere the size of a basketball, and throw it into an active volcano?

Just how would you handle a white hot liquid ball of radiation spitting metal, besides as noncritical pieces joined at the last moment? What would it do? Blow a small bite in the huge crater of an unactive volcano. Probably go unnoticed in an active eruption measured in megatons per second.
 

DirkGently1

Senior member
Mar 31, 2011
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but why does simply meeting or exceeding the critical mass cause an explosion? is it that the spontaneous fission of some of the plutonium atoms (and therefore the release of some free neutrons) is enough to start the fission chain reaction on its own?


Runaway fission reaction is why. Take your sub-critical, golf ball sized lump of fissile material however, and dump that in a Volcano and you've basically just got a dirty bomb. (Then your hands and other valuable appendages will rot off, not unlike a particularly nasty case of syphillis).

I do rather enjoy these thought experiments
 

Sunny129

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2000
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Runaway fission reaction is why. Take your sub-critical, golf ball sized lump of fissile material however, and dump that in a Volcano and you've basically just got a dirty bomb. (Then your hands and other valuable appendages will rot off, not unlike a particularly nasty case of syphillis).

I do rather enjoy these thought experiments

i already understand that a fission reaction occurs, but you didn't actually explain what starts the reaction. in other words, the transition from a sub-critical mass to a super-critical mass of fissile material only explains when the reaction occurs, not why it occurs or what specifically starts it...

...but that ok b/c my educated guess was [in part] correct, and was already confirmed by Mark R.
 
May 11, 2008
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You would die a quick death in the next few days. As said above, that much plutonium would be above critical mass. Would probably explode violently, but not kiloton style mushroom cloud effect. If it didn't explode, you would receive a lethal dose of radiation poisoning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core

That core was much smaller than a basketball, and emitted enough radiation in a half second of criticality that the guy died in 9 days.

Interesting article about the scientist who died : Louis Alexander Slotin.
About the radiation accident : What i do not understand is why they did not make a simple apparatus to lower the half hemisphere from a save shielded distance. I mean they used scintillation counters to monitor the radiation. It makes no sense to be that stupid, they knew how dangerous it was.
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Interesting article about the scientist who died : Louis Alexander Slotin.
About the radiation accident : What i do not understand is why they did not make a simple apparatus to lower the half hemisphere from a save shielded distance. I mean they used scintillation counters to monitor the radiation. It makes no sense to be that stupid, they knew how dangerous it was.

The principles of 'safe working practices' weren't well developed at that time. There was still a lot of belief that even dangerous things 'were safe if you were careful'. As long as you took care not to make a mistake things would be fine.

This is how early skyscrapers were built - there was no scaffolding, no safety nets or supports. Men just walked along the girders, carrying bricks and tools. Occasionally, some fell off or got blown off by wind.

The realisation now is that you can't rely on humans to get it right all the time, and that you have to have a contingency plan. This is taught at all levels, and is second nature to most people now. It wasn't then.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,420
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People were amendable to more risk pretty much across the entire universe of industry and life. Everything was more risky in general. And many times, the 'cowboy' types got things done (e.g. think test pilots who like to push the envelope). And lest we forget the "old" tradition of the scientist who tested everything on themselves first. No pain, no gain.
 
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May 11, 2008
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The principles of 'safe working practices' weren't well developed at that time. There was still a lot of belief that even dangerous things 'were safe if you were careful'. As long as you took care not to make a mistake things would be fine.

This is how early skyscrapers were built - there was no scaffolding, no safety nets or supports. Men just walked along the girders, carrying bricks and tools. Occasionally, some fell off or got blown off by wind.

The realisation now is that you can't rely on humans to get it right all the time, and that you have to have a contingency plan. This is taught at all levels, and is second nature to most people now. It wasn't then.

That does not make sense. It was very well known how dangerous radiation is. It is noted that even Fermi mentioned to the guy he would be dead within a year... Of course it was known that radiation was dangerous and while building skyscrapers at the time is something people did who had no alternatives for a job. It is not nice to know but it is true.

No, it seems to me when reading the quoted page, that he was tempting fate because he lost his friend Harry Daghlian during a similar accident six months prior. But even if that was the case, the use of simple safety tools made sense. It seems as with many technologies, that hazardous accidents must happen before people with common sense are listened to. Taking away the danger from perhaps emotionally troubled individuals or stressed out individuals.

It had been ominously augured by a very similar tragedy six months earlier. Harry Daghlian, Slotin's friend and laboratory assistant, had fallen victim to "the invisible killer". Deeply saddened by the mishap, Slotin spent many hours at his assistant's bedside during the month it took Daghlian to die. Thomas Brock quotes from a June 1946 letter from Emily Morrison, Philip Morrison's wife, to a friend. It reveals the "series of strange coincidences" involved in both mishaps: "Both Louis' and Harry Daghlian's accidents occurred on Tuesday the 21st; both used the same piece of material; and both died in the same room in the hospital." After the 24-year-old Daghlian's death, Nobel Laureate Enrico Fermi warned Slotin that he wouldn't last a year - "if you keep doing that experiment." Following the Daghlian accident two tiny spacers were developed to prevent the beryllium spheres from closing completely together. It was hoped that this would prevent similar incidents. But Slotin preferred a hands-on approach to experimentation. Raemer E. Schreiber, a Slotin colleague who still lives in Los Alamos, stated in a 1993 letter to the author: "I'm quite sure that several of us knew that he was using the Pu [plutonium) hemispheres for demonstrations of simple critical assemblies, but were not aware of his unsafe method until it was too late. After all, he was the expert in this work. But he should have never made the assembly by lowering the upper section down onto the lower one so a slip would close the gap and make the system supercritical. He should have fixed the upper assembly in position and raised the lower section gradually to increase the reactivity. Then if anything slipped, the assembly would open harmlessly. Louis knew this, of course, but apparently thought he could get by with the simpler assembly."

Slotin's death ended all hands-on critical assembly work at Los Alamos. We immediately started work on a remote control system with the critical assembly equipment and the operating crew separated by roughly a quarter mile. We had no more criticality deaths or injuries. Tributes, of all sorts, came in following Slotin's death. On 14 June 1946 the Los Alamos Times published "Slotin - A Tribute", a poem by associate editor Thomas P. Ashlock.

http://www.atomicheritage.org/index.php/component/content/92.html?task=view
 
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