NV 12VHPWR issues revisited

[coercitiv]

Damn, der8auer is giving us blockbuster level of entertainment. Well done, sir!

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I am 9 minutes in and - "the sense wires are senising themselves...nothing is sensed or measured"

 

[coercitiv]

I am 9 minutes in and - "the sense wires are senising themselves...nothing is sensed or measured"

He's trying to explain the obvious to the layman: putting labels on things does not make them behave like the name implies. The sensing pins do not measure or sense anything, they just make contact and increase the likelihood that power pins have good contacts well.

For example, when Nvidia says "user error", they don't mean that users made mistakes. Nope, they use the name "user error" as a code-name for bad connector and bad power delivery design. User Error is just a PR and marketing term

PS: I'm out of /s tags, will add one when they're back in stock.

 

[MrTeal]

He's trying to explain the obvious to the layman: putting labels on things does not make them behave like the name implies. The sensing pins do not measure or sense anything, they just make contact and increase the likelihood that power pins have good contacts well.

For example, when Nvidia says "user error", they don't mean that users made mistakes. Nope, they use the name "user error" as a code-name for bad connector and bad power delivery design. User Error is just a PR and marketing term

PS: I'm out of /s tags, will add one when they're back in stock.

The sense pins should more accurately be called config pins. They just indicate to the card the maximum power the power supply can deliver.

It's basically the exact same thing as the extra two pins on the 8 pin connector. Back in the GPU mining days I had a few server PSUs with a whack of 16ga 6 pin connectors, but most cards wouldn't run with just a 6 pin. I just jumpered the other two pins; problem solved. Functionally a 6 pin is a 6 pin rated at 75W, and an 8 pin is a 6 pin rated at 150W.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

He's trying to explain the obvious to the layman: putting labels on things does not make them behave like the name implies.

LOL yeah I got that. As he explained, this entire FUBAR mess is because they took a bad design and made it worse. Zero safety measures in place making what should not be technically possible, technically possible.

While there is the old adage that if you try to make something idiot proof, they just make a better idiot. The old design worked quite well as he opined, and if it ain't broke don't fix it. I personally think the whole dumb design is due to catering to the PCMR showcase build fad, and their OCD level obsession with cable management.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I personally think the whole dumb design is due to catering to the PCMR showcase build fad, and their OCD level obsession with cable management.

Yeah, they took the shortcut. A more sensible way would be to punch a hole in the mobo and have the connector at the bottom of the card next to the PCIe slot connector. Affix the cable with screws to that hole and when the card is inserted, the card's underside female connector naturally fits into the PSU's screwed in and secured male connector.

But the best is just giving these cards an external fat power brick.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Yeah, they took the shortcut. A more sensible way would be to punch a hole in the mobo

There is nothing sensible about that. How about do what adult Jimmy Neutron said, and go back to the tried and true method. If you need 4 cables plugged in? so be it. If buyers need to buy a new PSU designed for the new cards? so be it. If you are already spending $2500 or more on a card, you can pony up a few $$$ for a new PSU too.

 

[fastandfurious6]

high-end retail computing is entirely led by 'enthusiasts' of which 95% are gamers or as described above with OCD level obsessions with cable management and other absurdities...

all for that strange 'clean looking' PC tower picture with leds to post on reddit for useless reddit points

what have we all become?

 

[igor_kavinski]

what have they all become?

FTFY

A lot of us here have hardly anything in common with the Reddit crowd.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

high-end retail computing is entirely led by 'enthusiasts' of which 95% are gamers or as described above with OCD level obsessions with cable management and other absurdities...

all for that strange 'clean looking' PC tower picture with leds to post on reddit for useless reddit points

what have we all become?

I couldn't agree more. It'd also be great if we go back to sharing our stoke more, and complaining about everything and anything less. Then "we" would not have to complain about the complaining.

I am stoked that de8auer is pushing back against the PICNIC narrative. I recall many troubleshoots here in the past where the problem was someone forgetting to plug in the PCIe power cable/s or them not being fully seated. It never resulted in a melted socket or ruined card. That's the level of problem it should be, not a fire hazard.

 

[Heartbreaker]

He's trying to explain the obvious to the layman: putting labels on things does not make them behave like the name implies. The sensing pins do not measure or sense anything, they just make contact and increase the likelihood that power pins have good contacts well.

For example, when Nvidia says "user error", they don't mean that users made mistakes. Nope, they use the name "user error" as a code-name for bad connector and bad power delivery design. User Error is just a PR and marketing term

PS: I'm out of /s tags, will add one when they're back in stock.

User error was a big part of the problem back when GN duplicated melting with partial insertion, and then you could see that most of the melted connectors had marks indicating connectors weren't properly installed. It looks like these were most of the cases when this was happening a lot, after the initial wave when this became well know, the cases seemed to reduce drastically,

But it masked other problems. It also looks like there are some not so good cables as well, and not just from cheap sources. De8auers cable is a Corsair Cable for their PSUs, and when he replaced the cable, everything was fine. IIRC Jay also had a problem with his Corsair cable... That's a big concern.

NVidia connecting all the power wires to together, and thus having no kind of detection capability is kind of unbelievable, given the problems it had in RTX 4000.

I'm not buying anything for a while and the high cards are out of my price range, but it seems like it's best to avoid the high end FE cards and look for something like Asus cards that do have per-pin monitoring if buying high end this generation.

 

[amenx]

This is Jensens fault. I think he is a micromanager and cant resist involving himself in the design stages of his products. Bet he was the one favoring the sleek and compact form of the 5090 FE and over-ruling the best advice of his people to improve the connector design.

 

[fastandfurious6]

my assumption:

nvidia saw very little perf increase at same W in the top end desktop formats xx80 xx90 and grew desperate... had to juice in more power.... astronomical amounts of power just for a gpu.... they also had some yield issues cuz of some cutting edge TSMC tech.... last moment changes to accomodate all that and the whole ultra juice story didn't get enough QC

and even with all that extra power the results are still very disappointing...... what a failure

 

[igor_kavinski]

over-ruling the best advice of his people to improve the connector design.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. If 5090 is the BEST they could do, they really aren't the best. At least not anymore. Just fat slobs enjoying their riches.

 

[GTracing]

The cope on the r/Nvidia derbauer video post is hilarious.

The way he pushes the new cable in almost gently by jiggling his wrist shows alot of IQ there... You plug things like a switch, all in instantely you don't jiggle your wrist so the connector can make its way to the GPU that's completely stupid and wear the connector out even more and even faster making the pins inside moving and losing their optimal contact. I'm shocked nobody noticed this. He is too lazy to take out his gpu from his bench so he is already fucking the pins up on a brand new connector despite the already lame and awful Nvidia design.

 

[igor_kavinski]

and even with all that extra power the results are still very disappointing...... what a failure

They should sell 5090 SE 24GB with 350W TBP and slimmer AIB designs @ strict 4090 MSRP.

That's what I would do to make the best of a bad situation.

 

[fastandfurious6]

5090 going down in history as the fattest most thirsty PCIE card ever

 

[amenx]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. If 5090 is the BEST they could do, they really aren't the best. At least not anymore. Just fat slobs enjoying their riches.

I think they have very competent people. No one there would dare risk their job with the crap connector design unless they were over-ruled from above. ie, Jensen with his overly idealistic form-over-function vision of what the card could be.

 

[dacostafilipe]

Memes aside, could this be the start of issues at Nvidia in general?

I mean, they have almost 30.000 employees, is there really not a single person that looked at the 4090 cable issues and analysed the new cards? It's hard to believe ...

 

[igor_kavinski]

I mean, they have almost 30.000 employees, is there really not a single person that looked at the 4090 cable issues and analysed the new cards? It's hard to believe ...

They are probably not eating their own dogfood. Everyone there except the lowly testers are on data center hardware and the testers never get any respect because most executives don't want to hear about small issues like a connector. They are leaving the brunt of the responsibility on the AIBs. That's why ASUS had to fortify their 5090 against the inherent faults to reduce RMA rates or risk tarnishing their reputation due to Jensen's shenanigans.

 

[amenx]

5090 going down in history as the fattest most thirsty PCIE card ever

The FE is a 2 slot design. Thats the problem. No room for power connector safety features.

 

[pj-]

LOL yeah I got that. As he explained, this entire FUBAR mess is because they took a bad design and made it worse. Zero safety measures in place making what should not be technically possible, technically possible.

While there is the old adage that if you try to make something idiot proof, they just make a better idiot. The old design worked quite well as he opined, and if it ain't broke don't fix it. I personally think the whole dumb design is due to catering to the PCMR showcase build fad, and their OCD level obsession with cable management.

Painting with a wide brush there. I think that nicely sleeved/combed 2x or 3x 8pin cables look better than 12VHPWR, so don't blame me. Not everyone who cares about aesthetics in their PC is a minimalist and in fact a lot of the industry is built around the exact opposite; adding completely unnecessary stuff for fun/looks.

Since overclocking is basically dead, aesthetics and accessories are the main way people can personalize the centerpiece of what is often their main hobby. If anything, the two slot 5090 fe with smaller cable would be a better fit in a salvaged 2017 optiplex case that the no-fun-allowed people probably think should be used for everything, compared to a glass paneled full tower case where it would look too small

 

[gorobei]

i suspect some of this is less pure incompetence and more corporate hierarchy disconnect.
years ago i was reading/hearing about how nv compartmentalizes each group involved in the design/engineering/construction/software to prevent leaks and any one person(other than jensen) from knowing enough about a card generation to quit and go build a competing design for someone else. it seems odd that the power system engineers would be so removed from common sense to implement such a flawed system, so yeah the decision probably came from higher up and no one pushed back.

but the flaw is just a symptom of the "nv way".
back in the day nv would push well past the reticle size limit of tsmc guidelines and then blame tsmc when the chips failed. they are in this mess now because their "go to" solution to being ahead of amd for a non process size halving generation was to make the die size just that much bigger and to push the total power past the pcie cable limits for the extra edge. but that meant they ran hotter and louder.

marketing managed to get their fanbase to ignore the growing power draw, but the heat and noise had to be solved by making massive 2->3->4 slot coolers. the larger the cards got, the closer to the case side/glass they got and eventually ran out of room for the power cables to fit without the case side bending the cable plug. the growing power demands meant it was just a matter of time before catastrophy.

but rather than fix their size/power/cooler issues, nv changed the power cable(for the worse as buildzoid laid out)

i really hope amd and intel dont adopt the 12vhpwr cable and nv end up looking like the arrogant idiots they are.

 

[WelshBloke]

It's 600w going into an aic. That's never going to be good.

The basics is that everyone is expecting way too much in that there probably isn't a safe way to do that at the moment. The meme with the separate power supply socket on the backplate is probably the best solution tbh!

 

[Jan Olšan]

Yeah, they took the shortcut. A more sensible way would be to punch a hole in the mobo and have the connector at the bottom of the card next to the PCIe slot connector. Affix the cable with screws to that hole and when the card is inserted, the card's underside female connector naturally fits into the PSU's screwed in and secured male connector.

But the best is just giving these cards an external fat power brick.

Do not want.

This just means that the Nvidia SNAFU will burn your motherboard instead of the graphics card, because now the 12V "Melty Connector" 2x6 thing will be on your motherboard.