NV35 pictures here

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Originally posted by: TROGDORdBURNINATOR
actually, if you want to talk 4 pipes you should be comparing it to the FX5800 Ultra (BURN)

lol

 

[Megatomic]

Originally posted by: NFS4
(AGP) 9700 Pro
(1) Modem
(2) NIC
(3) Sound Card
(3) TV Tuner
(5) USB / Firewire header

Only 5 PCI slots on my board (like most other boards these days)


Yup, I ain't got room for CRAP!

It looks like you'd benefit from an AIW card and an SB Audigy 2 w/ firewire. That'd free up 2 slots right there.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Leon

Given the meager heat output of the Radeon 9600 Pro on a .13 micron process

Radeon 9600 4 pipeline card, with 80 million transistors vs 120 million on Radeon 9800. Might as well comment on heat output of FX5200, which only requires passive heatsink and yet it is .15 micron.

Leon

But you forget that a Radeon 9600 Pro is about 98% of the speed of the .15 micron 9500 Pro with a much lower amount of heat production.

It's highly plausable that a .13 micron top-of-the-line ATI part would have nearly the same amount or slightly higher heat output than a 9800 Pro. But it still wouldn't require two slots.

Of course this is all speculation....

 

[TROGDORdBURNINATOR]

It looks like you'd benefit from an AIW card and an SB Audigy 2 w/ firewire.

The firewire implementation on the Audigy 1 and 2 is not good enough. It only provies 5a and is thus useless for a number of devices including the ipod which charges from it. Think of it as non-powered USB.
Also, some people like to upgrade their GPU more often than their TV tuner.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: TROGDORdBURNINATOR

It looks like you'd benefit from an AIW card and an SB Audigy 2 w/ firewire.

The firewire implementation on the Audigy 1 and 2 is not good enough. It only provies 5a and is thus useless for a number of devices including the ipod which charges from it. Think of it as non-powered USB.
Also, some people like to upgrade their GPU more often than their TV tuner.

Yep, I've got three powered Firewire ports with my current mobo. And I've had my Hauppage WinTV 401 tuner for a LOOOOOOONG time. No way am I getting rid of it. ANd there's no way in hell that I'm putting up with Creative's drivers.


Either way, you guys buy whatever you want. I know I will

 

[Megatomic]

Originally posted by: TROGDORdBURNINATOR

It looks like you'd benefit from an AIW card and an SB Audigy 2 w/ firewire.

The firewire implementation on the Audigy 1 and 2 is not good enough. It only provies 5a and is thus useless for a number of devices including the ipod which charges from it. Think of it as non-powered USB.
Also, some people like to upgrade their GPU more often than their TV tuner.

I wasn't offering a serious upgrade plan to NFS4, he is sharp enough not to need my help. I was playing devil's advocate over his fully packed system. He COULD free up slots if he wanted to use the GF FX 5900 Ultra.

 

[Leon]

But you forget that a Radeon 9600 Pro is about 98% of the speed of the .15 micron 9500 Pro

Not true. At stock speed, using AA and AF, Radeon 9600 is 20-40% slower than Radeon 9500.

 

[Pariah]

For the 6 people in this country using 5 PCI devices, I don't think NVidia cares about you since you make up such a small percentage of users. In this age of including everything and the kitchen sink onboard there is practically no one who can't spare one PCI slot. It's never a good idea to have that many devices in a highend gaming rig anyway which is what this card is targetted at.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Originally posted by: Leon

But you forget that a Radeon 9600 Pro is about 98% of the speed of the .15 micron 9500 Pro

Not true. At stock speed, using AA and AF, Radeon 9600 is 20-40% slower than Radeon 9500.

Exactly, and also keep in mind some of us 15 years old here (me) have dad's who don't want any overclocking, but somehow I'm gonna overclock my 2.4C once I get it and not tell him for like 4 months

 

[TROGDORdBURNINATOR]

I wasn't offering a serious upgrade plan to NFS4, he is sharp enough not to need my help. I was playing devil's advocate over his fully packed system. He COULD free up slots if he wanted to use the GF FX 5900 Ultra.

Okay...well he COULD also need a lot more slots. Like if he had a mia soundboard in addition to, say, the motherboard header for his nforce 2 soundstorm.
He could need a hardware mpeg encoder if he's working with video.
He could want a real, fully functional raid implementation with a PCI card, too.
So...he could need less or more PCI slots. What's your point?

Should people build the rest of their systems around a videocard and sacrifice functionality/performance or just buy a single slot videocard?

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Leon

But you forget that a Radeon 9600 Pro is about 98% of the speed of the .15 micron 9500 Pro

Not true. At stock speed, using AA and AF, Radeon 9600 is 20-40% slower than Radeon 9500.

I meant to say when overclocked (check out the results from HardOCP and Firing Squad). Even still, the 9600 Pro is a much cooler running chip than the 9500 Pro.

The 9600 Pro retail is pretty much guaranteed at least an extra 100MHz core clock overclock as is witnessed by a recent post by one of our members here on the forums.

 

[Sharkmeat]

Did you notice the graphic overlay (painting overlay) on the heatsink in the large picture view.Poor graphis work,hope the card works better LOL.

 

[TROGDORdBURNINATOR]

The attitude here seems to be that the two slot design is okay because "the 6 people" that need all PCI slots and the few people with small form factor PCs are such a minority.

Well, guess what? You start cutting away segments of your potential market and soon it will shrink to nothing.

Also, Small form factor PCs are gaining market share like crazy and with Microsoft's push to integrate the PC into the home theatre this will only accelerate. But why not alienate all those potential customers? They don't really need a high end gaming card. They don't know what they want. Nvidia knows what they want.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Originally posted by: TROGDORdBURNINATOR

I wasn't offering a serious upgrade plan to NFS4, he is sharp enough not to need my help. I was playing devil's advocate over his fully packed system. He COULD free up slots if he wanted to use the GF FX 5900 Ultra.

Okay...well he COULD also need a lot more slots. Like if he had a mia soundboard in addition to, say, the motherboard header for his nforce 2 soundstorm.
He could need a hardware mpeg encoder if he's working with video.
He could want a real, fully functional raid implementation with a PCI card, too.
So...he could need less or more PCI slots. What's your point?

Should people build the rest of their systems around a videocard and sacrifice functionality/performance or just buy a single slot videocard?

Thats where you get a second computer and a high end server class motherboard for $400 to save on the raid and not to mention all the other things it comes with. If a video card is that powerful, then yes a person should build a person around their card because the advantages of that video card outweigh the advantages of those other cards.

 

[Megatomic]

Originally posted by: TROGDORdBURNINATOR

I wasn't offering a serious upgrade plan to NFS4, he is sharp enough not to need my help. I was playing devil's advocate over his fully packed system. He COULD free up slots if he wanted to use the GF FX 5900 Ultra.

Okay...well he COULD also need a lot more slots. Like if he had a mia soundboard in addition to, say, the motherboard header for his nforce 2 soundstorm.
He could need a hardware mpeg encoder if he's working with video.
He could want a real, fully functional raid implementation with a PCI card, too.
So...he could need less or more PCI slots. What's your point?

Should people build the rest of their systems around a videocard and sacrifice functionality/performance or just buy a single slot videocard?

If they are a gamer, YES. Why build high powered video cards anyways if not for the gamers? You might say for the graphics workers but they typically are gamers as well or they use pro cards like a Quadro or the FireGL.

Basically you can give up on the arguement that the card is flawed due to taking up 2 slots. No one but you and the 6 guys Pariah mentioned is buying it.

 

[TROGDORdBURNINATOR]

Yeah, or the customer could just stick with the setup that he has and get a card that only uses one slot, say, from the competition.

Besides, raid integrated into even ATX server boards can't match a high end PCI solution if for no reason other than the number of channels. What if he wants more than the board has, anyway? Still need a PCI card. Somtimes you might stick 3 pro boards plus general soundcard in a system for multi tracking.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Originally posted by: TROGDORdBURNINATOR
The attitude here seems to be that the two slot design is okay because "the 6 people" that need all PCI slots and the few people with small form factor PCs are such a minority.

Well, guess what? You start cutting away segments of your potential market and soon it will shrink to nothing.

Also, Small form factor PCs are gaining market share like crazy and with Microsoft's push to integrate the PC into the home theatre this will only accelerate. But why not alienate all those potential customers? They don't really need a high end gaming card. They don't know what they want. Nvidia knows what they want.

Well then those people can buy an ATI card. Not everyone will go for Nvidia or ATI, each has its own place in the market. For a home theatre, the 9800 Pro AIW card will do, for gaming, the top card at the time will do. People with small form factor PC's are usually people looking for something decent, small, and low heat. THey aren't looking for a server class computer packed into a small box with less space than a large Cereal box.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Originally posted by: TROGDORdBURNINATOR
Yeah, or the customer could just stick with the setup that he has and get a card that only uses one slot, say, from the competition.

Besides, raid integrated into even ATX server boards can't match a high end PCI solution if for no reason other than the number of channels. What if he wants more than the board has, anyway? Still need a PCI card. Somtimes you might stick 3 pro boards plus general soundcard in a system for multi tracking.

Well then you get one of those Fire GL things for workstatios because if he can afford all that a workstation card with high performance and one slot usage shouldn't be a problem.

 

[TROGDORdBURNINATOR]

Basically you can give up on the arguement that the card is flawed due to taking up 2 slots. No one but you and the 6 guys Pariah mentioned is buying it.

It's a negative. Most people will agree that when you have two top end cards: one with 2 slots, and one with only 1 slot, the 1 slot design is preferable.

I don't know how you can defend something that is clearly a con rather than a pro or even a neutral. It matters to some people especially the booming small form factor market (also LAN boxen.)

If you have two high end card, one with 1 slot, the other with 2, it's perfectly legit to criticize the 2 slot design.

 

[TROGDORdBURNINATOR]

Well then you get one of those Fire GL things for workstatios because if he can afford all that a workstation card with high performance and one slot usage shouldn't be a problem.

yeah, once again, nonsensical. Why would he go through the extra hassle to work around a flawed design? Why not just get the card from the competitor and NOT do that? It's a con, it's not alright.

 

[Megatomic]

Originally posted by: AgaBooga

Originally posted by: TROGDORdBURNINATOR
The attitude here seems to be that the two slot design is okay because "the 6 people" that need all PCI slots and the few people with small form factor PCs are such a minority.

Well, guess what? You start cutting away segments of your potential market and soon it will shrink to nothing.

Also, Small form factor PCs are gaining market share like crazy and with Microsoft's push to integrate the PC into the home theatre this will only accelerate. But why not alienate all those potential customers? They don't really need a high end gaming card. They don't know what they want. Nvidia knows what they want.

Well then those people can buy an ATI card. Not everyone will go for Nvidia or ATI, each has its own place in the market. For a home theatre, the 9800 Pro AIW card will do, for gaming, the top card at the time will do. People with small form factor PC's are usually people looking for something decent, small, and low heat. THey aren't looking for a server class computer packed into a small box with less space than a large Cereal box.

Thanks, you just saved me a lot of typing. It's all about what you are doing with your PC. SFF PCs were not designed to be high end professional 3D video/ sound editing rigs. It's fortunate that they can be made into decent LAN boxes IMO.

 

[TROGDORdBURNINATOR]

Also, N64 has a real point. The 9600 could be released with a higher clock easily matching the 9500pro for performance with a fraction of the heat generation and size. We can see this just from overclocking.

From this, we can deduce that ATI could also release a .13u version of R350 top end which will also run cooler and likely hit a much higher frequency...all while not robbing the user of a PCI slot plate.

 

[chizow]

There's no point in doubting whether or not that's working silicon. Its been rumored for over a month that nVidia would be debuting NV35 at E3, which is next week.

As for taking the first PCI slot, don't start that crap again. First of all, every mid-tower ATX form factor case I've seen has 7 expansion back plates, so even if your board has 5 PCI slots, there should be a free back plate that isn't tied to a PCI card. Use your headers there. There's also myriad front bay controllers that can serve as USB/Firewire headers as well. If you use all 6 PCI slots and the AGP, good for you, you've got a lot of legacy hardware and the NV35 isn't for you. Get used to losing PCI 1 until PCI-X or PCI-Express become ISA. Some of ATi's AIB partners have also produced iterations of the R300/R350 that take the 1st PCI as well. As perfect as Windows and ACPI is

, believe it or not, people still have problems with resource sharing. Don't use such a pathetic excuse as a reason not to buy a card you wouldn't for other reasons. We all know you don't like nVidia, big deal.

The R9600pro needs every bit of that 130MHz OC to outperform the R9500pro, but what happens when you OC the 9500pro? Oh yah, it once again stomps the 9600pro in the areas that count, with a few exceptions in non-bandwidth fillrate settings where it edges out the 9500pro. No surprise as the 9500pro is a loss leader @ $200 with a full-blown R300 core....its really no wonder why there were widespread shortages of the 9500pro; ATi wanted to get RV350 out the door ASAP because they were probably growning tired of eating the margin on the 9500pro.

Chiz

 

[TROGDORdBURNINATOR]

It's fortunate that they can be made into decent LAN boxes IMO.

Except with Nvidia's top of the line cards. For that they have to go ATI now.

 

[Megatomic]

I'm not defending the card using 2 slots I'm just not finding it a fault considering the market segment the card is aimed at.