NVIDIA and ATI

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: BoomAM
ATI drivers still have their reputation, nvidias do not, so if a bug is found with an ATI driver, everyone instantly blame ATI and says that the drivers are crap. If the same problem was found with nvidia drivers, not many people would be bothered.

Example: Anandtech's Splinter Cell bit of the 5900U preview.

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: Lonyo

Originally posted by: BoomAM
ATI drivers still have their reputation, nvidias do not, so if a bug is found with an ATI driver, everyone instantly blame ATI and says that the drivers are crap. If the same problem was found with nvidia drivers, not many people would be bothered.

Example: Anandtech's Splinter Cell bit of the 5900U preview.

You mean thing where it doesnt actually AA? Thats a good example, if that was ATI, all hell would break loose, and people would instantly blame ATI, say the drivers are crap, ect, ect. But as its nvidia, very little as happened, people have commented, but have only said that its because nvidia know that FSAA doesnt work in SC. People still think that the best drivers out are the Detonators. They aint the best no more, They have an equal.
In order for people to finaly realise that ATI has good drivers, every driver release would have to be 100% bug free, and a 100% performance boost with each new one. And even then people would complain about them. And most of the people who still complain are people with nvidia cards, that dont know any better. Like the detonators have never had any problems with them. Yeah right, in my experiance, the detonators have been far worse and far more buggy than the ATI drivers that i`ve been using.

 

[MASTERT]

wow thanks for all the help guys
i came to this video forum thinking i would have too look on page 5 to see if anyone responded
but i looked and saw it right there on page 1

i am still not sure which one to buy
but i have narrowed it down to the
5800 - 9700 - 9700 Pro

9700 PRO
i found it for $265.00 at OC System.com (ATI Original i think)
I read this Post
and it looks like the 9700p doesn't run well with some games at 8X AGP but 4X is fine
doesn't seem like much of a problem

the 9700
i found for $199.00 at MWave.com (OEM - POWERED BY ATI)
and i think this is the ATi originial for $222.00
now this non-pro just has a slower clock speed and that is the only difference?
how much slower does that make it? big difference?

and last but not least the NVIDIA 5800
many people makin this one i couldn't find NVIDIA Makin it
i found Asus V9900 TD for $269.00 at Accupc.com
the MGS for $275.00 at Target-Sale.com
the MSI for $291.00 at CompuSaveInc.net

the question is which should i get the 9700 - 9700 Pro or the 5800?
and if its the 5800 who makes the best one?

what is the best site to buy this stuff from?

sound doesn't really matter to me just performance, reliability and longevity
and of course price
i think im leaning more towards the 9700

thank you guys for all the help

Master Tablu

 

[beserkfury15]

go for which ever is cheaper, and in this case the 9700pro. From all the arguments, the oc 5800 is around 9700pro speed, so basically the 5800ultra is almost equal to 9700pro. The catylist are great now, I've never owned an ATI card, but seeing it in action in my friend's computer was awesome. Playing games at 8xAA, and 16xAF, holy crap!!!

 

[Corporate Thug]

masterT, in my own experiances, i have had absolutely no problem running 9700pro in 8x agp. btw, be carful of ordering from OCsystem.com, read the resellers review. if you get lucky, you may be able to find a 9700 pro on clearance @ Best buy for $250

 

[BoomAM]

MasterT, you do know that you dont have to manually check if your posts been replyed to?
Just check "subscribe to thread" when posting or click on the left most icon under topic view, at the top of a thread, to subscribe, and you will get an email whenever you get a reply to your thread, or another thread that you`ve posted in.

 

[whitetiger]

actually i will go for 9700 pro, but hard to find on marekt, for compare Fx 5900 is equal 9800 np, if i am you, i will go for 9700 pro or 9800, this is fast enough. Fx 5900 is sooo big and stupid..haha..so weird..it's like twice as big as a regular video card, plus price is like hell...go for 9700 pro, first choice, then 9800 . price is much less than Fx 5900 and quality is not to far.

 

[MASTERT]

thanks for the help guys
i will get the 9700 Pro
anyone know the best place to buy this from?
Best buy sells them?

thats cool BoomAM i didn't know that

 

[BoomAM]

Anytime.

 

[BFG10K]

but the Drivers are messed up

No they aren't. From my personal and extensive experience I'd class the current Catalyst 3.5s to be at least as good as as the best nVidia drivers I've used.

Oh, and nVidia's current drivers are known to be cheating in a wide range of popular benchmarks to artificially inflate performance. In the real world a 5900 Ultra is no match for a 9800 Pro when the detail levels are cranked up.

 

[yhelothar]

Originally posted by: BoomAM

Originally posted by: Lonyo

Originally posted by: BoomAM
ATI drivers still have their reputation, nvidias do not, so if a bug is found with an ATI driver, everyone instantly blame ATI and says that the drivers are crap. If the same problem was found with nvidia drivers, not many people would be bothered.

Example: Anandtech's Splinter Cell bit of the 5900U preview.

You mean thing where it doesnt actually AA? Thats a good example, if that was ATI, all hell would break loose, and people would instantly blame ATI, say the drivers are crap, ect, ect. But as its nvidia, very little as happened, people have commented, but have only said that its because nvidia know that FSAA doesnt work in SC. People still think that the best drivers out are the Detonators. They aint the best no more, They have an equal.
In order for people to finaly realise that ATI has good drivers, every driver release would have to be 100% bug free, and a 100% performance boost with each new one. And even then people would complain about them. And most of the people who still complain are people with nvidia cards, that dont know any better. Like the detonators have never had any problems with them. Yeah right, in my experiance, the detonators have been far worse and far more buggy than the ATI drivers that i`ve been using.

you can't blame nvidia for them.. because those drivers aren't even official WHQL ones...
give me an example of OFFICIAL WHQL ones having a major problem like that...
let's see if you can remember any with issues off the top of your head... pretty hard huh?

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: virtualgames0
you can't blame nvidia for them.. because those drivers aren't even official WHQL ones...
give me an example of OFFICIAL WHQL ones having a major problem like that...
let's see if you can remember any with issues off the top of your head... pretty hard huh?

Of course i can. Just cos they arnt WHQL certified, doesnt mean that nvidia did make them, and authorise them for release.
I can name alot of issues that i had with my GF3Ti200 and WHQL drivers. I never use non WHQL drivers for my video cards.
In Rallisport Challenge, after a minute the computer would hard lock, this doesnt happen with my ATI 9700pro.
In X-Wing alliance, all the textures were white, which doesnt happen with my 9700pro.
In Jedi Knights 2, i would get missing textures quite often, which, guess what, didnt happen with my 9700pro. Funny that eh?

The fact is, wether people admit it or not, if nvidia had a major bug in their drivers, people would put it down to their other system drivers before changing drivers, ATI on the other hand, has to put up with pratts who instantly blame them, when its not their software that causes the problem.

 

[nRollo]

No they aren't. From my personal and extensive experience I'd class the current Catalyst 3.5s to be at least as good as as the best nVidia drivers I've used.

LOL, well that settles it, if they work on BFGs hardware and games, AND he has "extensive" experience", they MUST be good..........er, sure.


My own "perfect" experiences with ATI recently:
8500retail: Locked up randomly after fdisk/format, new drivers, new bios, new psu. Had to draw the line on "the problem is your Epox 8KHA+ motherboard" though- it worked flawlessly with a V5, GF3, GF4. Good job ATI!
9700Pro retail: When I bought it, I had a 8 month old 19" Sony monitor. Rolling wavey lines through my desktop, that I didn't have with the GF4 it replaced. Fdisk, format, drivers, bios, etc. still had the lines. Used the dvi to analog adapter trick, still had some lines, sometimes. Put GF4 back in- no lines. Put 9700 in, lines. Tried on 17" Gateway monitor, lines. Bought a 21" Nokia monitor from co-worker, no lines. Way to go ATI! Compatible with 1/3 monitors I own.
On UT, I had corrupted textures as often as not on maps like "Face" with the 9700pro.

Yep, nothing to see here. ATI works flawlessly, with any hardware, on any game. LOL

I could say I can't remember the last time I had a problem with a nVidia based card though.

 

[BoomAM]

Everyone has different experiance with different drivers, its just with ATI ones, the bad gets talked about more than the bad on nvidia drivers.
And i think BFG10K has been around the block enough times to know when drivers are good and when they are bad.

 

[nRollo]

And i think BFG10K has been around the block enough times to know when drivers are good and when they are bad.

Hmmm- so if BFG says it, it must be so?

I think I'll rely on my own experiences instead. I've been a computer gamer since 1988, and have made my living in IT/IS for the last 6 years. I think I can tell when I'm having compatibility and driver issues too, but even if I couldn't, I could link you to 100s of posts on Rage3d from people having the same problems I had.

You know why people don't talk about nVidia driver and compatibility problems as much? They don't happen as much.

I like ATI as much as nVidia, I've bought every retail product they've made that isn't crippled: Rage 32, MAXX, VIVO, 8500, 9700Pro. They have great IQ, now they have more efficient AA/AF, but they are buggier.

 

[BoomAM]

I never said that BFGs always right, i said that i think he knows, on his system, wether its a driver problem or not.
Looking at the Rage3D forums is a bit bias dont you think? considering that its all about ATI cards. The chance are that you would find a similar number of problems on a nvidia fan website.
nVidia drivers compatibilites do happen, alot, its just that people dont talk about them as much, or blow them out of proportion.
To be honest, i dont trust anyone whos been in the IT industry for more than 2 years, regarding. Cos 90% of them dont know what their talking about, I can literally teach my Computer Maintenence and Electronic Teacher the subject, cos he knows so little about computers, the same with my three IT teachers. Plus IT is more centralised around using the software, rarther than fixing hardware/software problems.
Im sure you do know what you on about, but i get the idea that you are one of the groups of people who still regard ATI drivers as trash, when they are not, you seem to be still holding on to the old and tired belief that ati drivers are rubbish and that nvidia drivers are perfect. I hate to burst your bubble, but ATI drivers are just as good, if not better than nvidia drivers at the moment. Its just, like i said, ATIs driver problems get blown out of proportion. nVidias do not.

 

[5150Joker]

The 9800 pro 128mb smokes the 256mb 5900 Ultra in 7/10 tests but really 8/10 if you discount the 3DMark03 score: http://www.ocaddiction.com/articles/video/fx_5900ultra_vs_radeon_9800pro/ You get superior performance, better AA and cheaper price w/the 9800 pro.

 

[BenSkywalker]

In Rallisport Challenge, after a minute the computer would hard lock, this doesnt happen with my ATI 9700pro.

In Jedi Knights 2, i would get missing textures quite often, which, guess what, didnt happen with my 9700pro. Funny that eh?

Which driver revision? I have both of those games, I'd like to see an example of these nV bugs that are close to the level of ATi's.

I think that a lot of the reason people don't trust ATi's drivers is the rabid ATi loyalists stating how great their drivers are. I listened to the BS on it and actually purchased an R300 based board and was truly shocked how bad their drivers were. All the older Lithtech engine games I had were unplayable due to input latency issues with the 3.2 drivers, Sacrifice suffered massive image corruption with all drivers from launch to 3.2s and then the Counterstrike/HL/OF/TFC/BS bug. These were the 'problem free' drivers I heard so much about. When you have people who defend such serious driver issues, going so far as to claim they don't exist, it creates a large group of people who simply won't trust other's perspective on how good the drivers actually are.

The difference between nV issues and ATi issues is that for some reason ATi's drivers are easy to reproduce on anyone's system. With every driver release we have ATi posting a full page of bugs that they have fixed, some of them full system hard lock bugs, despite the ATi advocates stating that the driver release was 'bug free'. If there was some honest analysis by ATi owners as to the state of their drivers, you may not have so many people refusing to believe anything good said about ATi's drivers.

 

[nRollo]

LOL- Ben, you're making all this up. If BFG says the drivers are trouble free, the drivers are trouble free.

<remembers trying to play "Giants" on his 9700Pro while wincing>

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Which driver revision? I have both of those games, I'd like to see an example of these nV bugs that are close to the level of ATi's.

If i recall correctly, the problems were with,
21.83 (creative)
27.50
30.41
And 40 something.

FYI i am not an ATI loyalist, my 9700pro is the first ATI card ive owned. My previous cards were a GF3Ti200, GF2GTS, GF2MX. Hardly an ATI fan boy am I?

The fact is you two are like alot of people here, who still belive that ATI drivers are crap and nvidia are the ones they should live upto. Wether you want to belive it or not, ATI are equal to nvidias now. And im speaking from using both types of drivers. Problems with ATI drivers are more publisised than nvidia ones, so to many people it seems like ATI drivers are bad. Which they are not.
Im not saying that they are perfect, but neither are nvidias, they probably have the same number of bugs in them that each other have.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Hardly an ATI fan boy am I?

Considering you state this-

Wether you want to belive it or not, ATI are equal to nvidias now.

I would have to say extremely rabid. I'm not speculating on things I've heard. I wasted $200 listening to people like you about ATi's drivers and was shocked at the poor state they were in. They were not just bad, they were unacceptably poor(up to and including Cat3.2s). And the problems I had, were all documented and admitted to by ATi, not these "I swear I had this issue in game x with a nVidia board one time on Tuesday on my POS VIA based Abit mobo" or some other such nonsense(infinite loop bug as an example)

If i recall correctly, the problems were with,
21.83 (creative)
27.50
30.41
And 40 something.

Don't have the problems with either game and the 30.41s(ran those for a while), don't have either the 27.50s or the 21.83(I wouldn't wipe my arse with CL's drivers ) haven't run in to any issues with any of the 4x.xx series drivers either on either game. Is there some particular area that it happens in?

Im not saying that they are perfect, but neither are nvidias

And I regularly ask people to list the problems with nVidia drivers and for some d@mn reason I can't reproduce them the overwhelming majority of the time. I have found that certain driver revisions don't support certain texture formats, although RivaTuner fixes it(yes, I tried Rage's Radeon tweaker and talked to numerous people trying to fix my problems including members of ATi's driver team with no luck, spent a month trying to work around the drivers before I realized setting a Ben Franklin on fire would have been smarter then buying into the 'ATi has good drivers' hype).

 

[rbV5]

Congrats BenSkywalker, you've reduced yourself from knowlegeable bias to myopic fanboi...either that or the vast majority of reviewers and users are liars, and your experience with your "card" is the norm. My experience with the ATI drivers has been very good, and IMHO the Cat 3.5 driver set is excellent. I don't doubt you had issues with your card, and I can name off a handful of issues with the drivers that I've had, not a single one a deal breaker and that includes every single driver set from the set on the CD that launched with the AIW 9700 right up to Cat 3.5, but it sure seems to me you could use a little honest analysis of your own. Get over it, ATI produced a damn fine card in the r300, the Catalyst drivers are very good and ATI is showing a commitment to its user base. The fact that ATI's software engineers try to help an idividual user, and regularly post at sights like Rage3D( and get flamed incessantly I might add) is proof to me that they are commited to their product. They may not be as great in every situation with every configuration as some folks make them out to be (drivers) but they're most certainly not as bad as you make them out to be.

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: rbV5
Congrats BenSkywalker, you've reduced yourself from knowlegeable bias to myopic fanboi...either that or the vast majority of reviewers and users are liars, and your experience with your "card" is the norm. My experience with the ATI drivers has been very good, and IMHO the Cat 3.5 driver set is excellent. I don't doubt you had issues with your card, and I can name off a handful of issues with the drivers that I've had, not a single one a deal breaker and that includes every single driver set from the set on the CD that launched with the AIW 9700 right up to Cat 3.5, but it sure seems to me you could use a little honest analysis of your own. Get over it, ATI produced a damn fine card in the r300, the Catalyst drivers are very good and ATI is showing a commitment to its user base. The fact that ATI's software engineers try to help an idividual user, and regularly post at sights like Rage3D( and get flamed incessantly I might add) is proof to me that they are commited to their product. They may not be as great in every situation with every configuration as some folks make them out to be (drivers) but they're most certainly not as bad as you make them out to be.

Rock on!
Well said.

 

[nRollo]

Why is it anyone who doesn't whip it out and pump up the jam at the mere mention of an ATI product gets dubbed an "nVidiot" or "fanboy"?

ATI "committed to their product?! Hardly. They never even acknowledged the rolling wavey line problem 100s of us had. They said the problem I had with the R8500 and my Epox 8KHA+ was due to inferior voltage regulators on that motherboard, but that same motherboard ran 3dfx and nVidia video cards without a problem.
ATI just seems to have more hardware and software compatibility issues than nVidia. <remembers UT and Giants, winces again>

ATI is committed to your money, like any other company.

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: Rollo
They said the problem I had with the R8500 and my Epox 8KHA+ was due to inferior voltage regulators on that motherboard, but that same motherboard ran 3dfx and nVidia video cards without a problem.

They probably ment that the voltage regulators caused problems with their card, a technical design fault.

ATI just seems to have more hardware and software compatibility issues than nVidia. <remembers UT and Giants, winces again

Hardware compatibility issues? nVidia has had them. And Software issues as well.