NVIDIA and ATI

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: Extrarius
NVidia really makes me wonder. How can you possibly get a 15%+ speed increase every single release? Eventually, you would run out of optimizations until the CPU etc changed drastically, which hasn't happened for a long time really.

I wondered that, but then i realised.
What they mean is +15% speed increase, is if your old drivers were the ones labled "standard vga graphics adaptor". lol

 

[BFG10K]

For what exactly? Are they faster?

Uh, for the bug fixes of course. Unless you're saying that nVidia's drivers are 100% perfect and all they do is just increase the speed.

although that pales in comparison to the massive performance boost the FX 5800 saw from newer drivers.

Yes, static clip planes, application detection, shader subsitution, ignoring requests for Z clearing, and reduced FP/AF precision will increase speed. It's called cheating.

Which IQ issues?

Read some NV30 reviews and you'll see them everywhere.

It introduces significant artifacts, namely excessive texture aliasing, but it looks great in screenshots so it is deemed to have 'better' IQ

I don't test screenshots, I test games. I've already mentioned a number of times that I thought the R300's 16x performance AF looked better than the Ti4600's 8x full AF. The Radeon has more shimmering from a negative LOD for sure but I run at very high resolutions and it almost eliminates it completely. The nett result is an extremely good looking image.

And that resolution is available to me because the 9700 Pro is faster on its own and because ATi's AF runs extremely fast and looks awesome at the same time.

 

[BFG10K]

The only point of the post you are quoting is the poster I was replying to had said the drivers must be ok, because you say they are. You are knowledgeable, but your experiences are only useful in that they "prove" you have no issues with ATI compatibility.

I was saying is that in my experience the drivers are at least as good as nVidia's are. What others are saying is irrelevant to this comment.

I'd never even dream of claiming the drivers work perfectly for anyone because such a scenario will never exist with any vendor. Ever.

Err, yes, but that's not really relevant to this discussion because the way it's does not meet AGP 2.0 spec is that the slot is positioned too close to some tall capacitors.

Right, so if Epox ignored the spec externally then isn't it all the more likely that they also ignored the spec internally where nobody could visibly "see" it?

I said I've never heard of this hardware fault on nVidia based boards, and I heard of it a LOT on ATI.

You've never heard of nVidia cards with 2D image quality problems? Oh pu-lease.

Me either, but you note I said "UT" not "UT2003", and same as I had on my MAXX, I has missing and corrupted textures in UT with the 9700Pro with some drivers/patch combinations

Same deal with UT. The only issue I've had was with the Catalyst 2.5s where the game wouldn't launch under OpenGL mode. All other drivers worked perfectly with it.

was parodying a common position these days, no offense intended.

A common position which I didn't take. Also if we're also going to talk about common positions then we should discuss how all systems running with ATi cards and have problems are automatically pointed at ATi while systems with nVidia cards that have problems are blamed on something else. I'm saying that the fair share of blame must go to either scenario for both vendors.

There driver updates are about speed, not "Giants won't run because the developers are on the take from nVidia".

Right, then I must've been dreaming when Serious Sam 2 was hardlocking my system with one of the official 4xxx WHQL drivers from nVidia, the same system that later ran the game perfectly on my 9700 Pro right from the work go.

LOL After 7 months with the 9700Pro, and a few weeks with the 5800, I can't tell the difference.

That's like saying "I can't tell a difference between my GF2 MX and 9800 Pro when I run it at 320 x 240!".

IIRC you had some fear of running high detail settings on your Radeon so it's no surprise your CPU limited, low-detail settings on your 9700 Pro look the same on your slower 5800. Try running it at real detail settings and then get back to us.

 

[Mem]

Right, so if Epox ignored the spec externally then isn't it all the more likely that they also ignored the spec internally where nobody could visibly "see" it?

Actually it was just one tall capacitor that`s very near the end of the AGP slot that will block some video cards,ironically the 9700 works and fits fine with the Epox 8KHA+ because it does not have any capacitors at the bottom right end corner of the card(fan side) that you see on most Nvidia cards now,this capacitor was to allow extra stability while overclocking the cpu/board.

Infact Epox will remove the capacitor if it interferes with the fitting of your AGP card at your request,since it will not effect normally stability if it`s removed,btw the board uses a 3 phase power supply for OC stability.This was the only problem with the board,remember you`re talking about one of the most stable KT266A boards(btw I`m using one at the moment so should know ) .

Two more points I forgot to meantion,first it was not all Epox 8KHA+ boards that had this problem since there was a few different REV models,second point is I remember there was a BIOS update for a Radeon card quite awhile back(I can`t remember which model).

 

[Compddd]

I remember when I bought a Ti4600 for a filler card till the 9700 pro came out. Had constant infinite loop errors with the Ti4600, really happy when my work got the 9700's in and I was able to return that pos 4600. Haven't had any problems with my 9700 or 9800 now. ATI and Nvidia, they both have there share of driver bugs.

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

was parodying a common position these days, no offense intended.

A common position which I didn't take. Also if we're also going to talk about common positions then we should discuss how all systems running with ATi cards and have problems are automatically pointed at ATi while systems with nVidia cards that have problems are blamed on something else. I'm saying that the fair share of blame must go to either scenario for both vendors.

Well said. Ive said that all along in my posts in this thread. nVidia will always get "let off" for a bug in their drivers, ATI are practically hung if someone notices that same bug in their drivers.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Had constant infinite loop errors

That was a VIA issue, not nVidia.

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Had constant infinite loop errors

That was a VIA issue, not nVidia.

I thought it was a nvidia issue?
Cos i never saw posts saying "my via mobo drivers are causing an infinite loop error".
It was always "my nvidia drivers are causing an infinite loop error, but becuase i have a nvidia card/drivers i`ll blame it on someone else, so my drivers wont get bad press"
LOL.

 

[BenSkywalker]

I thought it was a nvidia issue?

Take any system that has the problem running nVidia graphics cards. Don't touch a single thing except update to the latest VIA drivers. The problem will be gone.

 

[Mem]

It was always "my nvidia drivers are causing an infinite loop error, but becuase i have a nvidia card/drivers i`ll blame it on someone else, so my drivers wont get bad press"

I remember this happened on my VIA/Nvidia combo(only happened once)anyway at the time I read that some ATi users were having the problem as well,even some owners with SiS ,Intel boards were having the "infinite loop problem" ,some were blaming VIA others Nvidia and even hardware components like PSU,ram etc were being blamed for at the time..

Anyway whatever the real cause, it has been fixed or seems to have gone away for 99% of users now on whatever hardware combo they may have.
I think this ATI vs Nvidia thread is getting out of hand,I`m sure there`re both happy/unhappy owners on both sides.
Do I think ATi is perfect?No,do I think Nvidia is perfect ?No.

In the end we can decide which one we prefer, just be thankful we still have two big companies to choose from in the gaming world.
Getting computer hardware and software to work together will always cause some problems sooner or later ,it`s a sad fact.

 

[chsh1ca]

Here's the two major beefs I have with my MSI GeForce3 Ti200 Pro-VT128 (128MB) using various drivers, currently using the 31.00s because the 4x line seems to actually degrade my performance slightly. The rig is listed as Optimus in my sig. Latest bios (where applicable) and drivers for everything else.

- When starting ANY OpenGL game in Windows, the whole 2d quality goes into the toilet in Windows after I exit said games. Noted in Unreal Tournament, Unreal Tournament 2003 Demo, Warcraft III (OGL Mode), Tactical Ops (UT based), GLQuake. Examples of worsening image quality include the Start button graphic becoming simply a black rectangle, and all my icons being blurred. Granted, this isn't much of an issue since I generally only use Windows for certain games anyway.
- When playing certain games in DirectX mode, I got some severe clipping which did not occur in OpenGL mode. It was bad with Warcraft III to the point where I was getting footmen who looked like grass people, which is why I set WCIII to use OGL Mode. I also have a problem with NHL 2002 and clipping, but it is tolerable. My friend with an original Radeon 64MB VIVO has NHL2002 as well, and it looks just fine on his system. I contacted MSI with this problem, and the sum of their suggestion was to upgrade to the latest DX (which I have).

Oh but wait, we're not discussing REAL problems right? These problems can't possibly be real since I don't see anything on nVidia's site about them. The thing is, for me, a graphics card is a major purchase, and I can't afford to upgrade whenever something doesn't work immediately, otherwise I would slap a Radeon 9500Pro in its place immediately and 'take my chances'. Besides, if I ended up having a problem with the card, I could drive to ATI's head offices and complain to them.

 

[nRollo]

BFG:

Right, so if Epox ignored the spec externally then isn't it all the more likely that they also ignored the spec internally where nobody could visibly "see" it?

Hmmm, I retract my statement that Rogo has possessed you- he'd never say anything this totally illogical! In answer to your question, no I'd never assume because they put a capacitor too near the slot the wiring of the slot was wrong as well, why would I? Besides, it worked great with my nVidia and 3dfx based cards.

Same deal with UT. The only issue I've had was with the Catalyst 2.5s where the game wouldn't launch under OpenGL mode. All other drivers worked perfectly with it.

Hmmm, lucky you. Others don't necessarily share your charmed life though:
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=968e4a420fc272e715a7f88a55080117&threadid=33680610&highlight=Unreal+Tournament

Unreal Tournament (not UT2003) performance or lack of it on the Radeons is well documented both in these forums and also elsewhere on the web, notably forums such as PlanetUnreal and Beyond Unreal. The main issues have been crashing and non-starting in D3D and texture errors and gradual FPS choking in OpenGl.

Yep, ATIs drivers kick butt...

You've never heard of nVidia cards with 2D image quality problems? Oh pu-lease.

No, I've never seen 100s of posts about people with GeForce cards having gray bars rolling across their screen like I have for the ATI 9X00 series.

That's like saying "I can't tell a difference between my GF2 MX and 9800 Pro when I run it at 320 x 240!".

I think there's a "little" difference between 11X8X32, highest detail levels, quality 4XAF that I run UT2003 at and 320X240, but if you don't, good for you.

IIRC you had some fear of running high detail settings on your Radeon so it's no surprise your CPU limited, low-detail settings on your 9700 Pro look the same on your slower 5800.

LOL, I would have run the 9700 at higher settings if it was powerful enough to do so. Of course, the fuzzy banding introduced by your "Performance" settings wasn't an option. The 5800 slower? I'll put it this way, the guy I sold the 9700Pro to hasn't even installed it, and has told me I could have it back if I like. It's not in my box, because there isn't enough difference to make the change worth my time.

Try running it at real detail settings and then get back to us.

Here we go again, for some reason you think the settings you run are the only "real" settings. Most people would say 4XAA 8XAF is a "real" setting, it's what all the reviewers use. I've posted lots of links to benchmarks that show a 5800 at Ultra speeds is in the same league as a 9700 Pro. All you can do is bleat,"Waaah. 8XAA! 16XAF! Performance mode! Ignore the banding and stuttering, these settings bolster my argument!"

 

[BoomAM]

Rollo.
Your referals to Rage3D shouldnt actually be used as is a bit bias.
People on the rage3d forums are bound to be posting about ATI problems, its a primarily a ATI message board. ATI even responds to that message board over others.
BFG10K could use the same arguement against you and refer you to a nvidia bias website, like nvnews, and no doubt you`ll find loads of nvidia board complaints to "bolster" BFG10K`s arguement.
So using a website/message board that is heavily bias towards one company or another, to "bolster" your arguement, is just plain daft.

 

[rbV5]

Unreal Tournament (not UT2003) performance or lack of it on the Radeons is well documented both in these forums and also elsewhere on the web, notably forums such as PlanetUnreal and Beyond Unreal. The main issues have been crashing and non-starting in D3D and texture errors and gradual FPS choking in OpenGl.

Firstly, why would anyone play UT in D3D unless you had too? Secondly, being one of my favorite games, I play it quite alot it runs well even on my AIW 7500 in OpenGL. D3D has always worked very well for me, but while the OpenGL renderers could use some work, the visuals with the high resolution and high detail textures are worth the hassle IMHO. The main issue for me has been the crap OpenGL renderers, not ATI's Opengl drivers.

The 5800 slower? I'll put it this way, the guy I sold the 9700Pro to hasn't even installed it, and has told me I could have it back if I like.

He sounds like a bright fellow also

Gawd, do you know what a persuasive argument is?

 

[Rogodin2]

Rogo2 is here to replace rogo1 since rogo1 had to move and lost all his passwords for forums because his email was deleted by msn.



Almost all of Bens claims are unfounded (rage3d has a large poster base but not at all indicative of the amount of cards they are selling) and based on a few instances when compared to the number of cards sold-thereby making his statement-"Ati makes broken drivers"-invalid at its most lucid and ludicrious at its worst.

I respect ben's knowledge of the technology behind the cards-but I don't respect his logic.

BFG was posting according to the mind meld I unleashed on him.



rogo

 

[Rogodin2]

It's also inane for anyone OTHER than the supervisor of dell's tech support or msn's tech support to lay down a blanket statement that "ati's drivers suck, or nvidia's drivers suck."

We aren't all 10th graders here.

rogo

 

[nRollo]

He sounds like a bright fellow also

Gee, I don't know rbV5. He has a comp sci degree from a Big 10 college, and 20 years experience as a programmer and systems analyst. He was a partner in a successful software development firm, then started his own. Do you think what video card he uses really qualifies as grounds for you to question his intelligence? Or could it just be he has more important things on his mind than how many fps he gets at 3dmark?

Gawd, do you know what a persuasive argument is?

I don't know rb, to me the fact that I could have had my 9700Pro back, and $125 back in my pocket after returning the 5800 to the vendor and the $225 to my friend, is a fairly strong indication the 5800 is about as good.
Weigh the equation in your mind rbV5:
Before this deal, I had a R9700Pro and $125 more cash. I could have went back to that, supposedly "superior" VGA and $125 richer.
If you told me you kept your cheesy XP2100 instead of trading it for a P4-2.66 and a $100, and you had used a P4 2.66, I'd be fairly convinced the P4 didn't make that much difference in performance?
That's just me, I usually assume people don't intentionally screw themselves.

 

[chsh1ca]

Originally posted by: Rollo
I don't know rb, to me the fact that I could have had my 9700Pro back, and $125 back in my pocket after returning the 5800 to the vendor and the $225 to my friend, is a fairly strong indication the 5800 is about as good.
Weigh the equation in your mind rbV5:
Before this deal, I had a R9700Pro and $125 more cash. I could have went back to that, supposedly "superior" VGA and $125 richer.
That's just me, I usually assume people don't intentionally screw themselves.

Have you not realised that trying to use your sensibilities as 'proof' backing up your own claims is rather hollow and mostly just humourous? Remember Rollo, whether you were factually screwed or not -- which is a bunch of rubbish anyways, both cards are fine -- you of course don't believe you intentionally screwed yourself, so obviously how can you be proven wrong right? Excellent logic there. You are really too funny.

 

[nRollo]

I disagree chsh1ca. I was well aware I had screwed myself when I went from the GF3 to the R8500, and jumped right back to the GF4 the week they came out. I was well aware I'd screwed myself for speed when I went from the GF2 Pro to the VIVO, but liked the VIVO enough to keep it a few months.
Similarly, if the 5800 was as slow and low IQ as BFG seems to think it is, my hand would be on the button right now buying a 5900 or 9800.

Only weak doofuses need to delude themselves that they made the "right" choice, I pretty much call it like I see it and go about my business.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Almost all of Bens claims are unfounded

Which issue? Name one. I'll back up my claims gladly that the issues I bring up are ATi driver based issues. Make sure you don't confuse what I've said with anyone else though, quote something I stated that isn't an ATi driver problem despite my claims in this thread.

 

[Rogodin2]

"Which issue? Name one."

For one the GTA3 that you claimed was mentioned on the gta3 website troubleshooting faq which I could not find.

I've played both GTA3 and GTA3 vice city on my 8500 and 9700 and didn't have problems and since it's not listed here-

gta3 pc troubleshooting faq

I don't quite understand your complaint, and the forum doesn't count since you didn't mention it.

And in this quote I don't quite know how to reply since you are so vague and imply that CS is broken-I want impirical proof outside of a tiny forum like rage3d or anandtech to validate your claim that it is broken-

"I buy four to five new games a month on average, about half of them are PC games on average(though it fluctuates, this month I bought six PC games and only one for my consoles). I expect every game I buy to work with my vid card period. Are you saying that is too much to ask? I expect that my vid card drivers will never hard lock my system."

It's hard to respond if you only list one game and imply others without posting the exact problems you are having.

What I'm demanding of you is the premises to support claims that "ati's drivers are broken with certain games". You would have to give me valid data based on at least a 20% user base that shows that CS or GTA3 has artifacts with the graphics card that you are blaming accross all other hardware and software variables (this would require clean installs with up to date OSs).

If you can do this then I will accede.

rogo

 

[chsh1ca]

Originally posted by: Rollo
I disagree chsh1ca. I was well aware I had screwed myself when I went from the GF3 to the R8500, and jumped right back to the GF4 the week they came out. I was well aware I'd screwed myself for speed when I went from the GF2 Pro to the VIVO, but liked the VIVO enough to keep it a few months.
Similarly, if the 5800 was as slow and low IQ as BFG seems to think it is, my hand would be on the button right now buying a 5900 or 9800.

Only weak doofuses need to delude themselves that they made the "right" choice, I pretty much call it like I see it and go about my business.

So you're saying you have a proven track record of making poor choices, as evidence to back up your claims further? LOL, that IS funny! I must say Rollo, you have a unique approach. I've never seen someone attempt to prove a point by essentially saying "Well yeah, but I've been a fool before -- a few times even!"

The GF2Pro to VIVO in terms of raw performance is kinda of an absurd leap. Hell, I loved my Radeon VIVO, but I never went around thinking it was the best card looking only at performance. GF3 to 8500 is a waste of performance. I kinda find it amusing that you won't bother looking at the numbers for the FX5800 are on par with/slower than the R9700Pro. It makes me think that perhaps you are just not wanting to be the fool a third time.

 

[BenSkywalker]

For one the GTA3 that you claimed was mentioned on the gta3 website troubleshooting faq which I could not find.

The fansite you listed is what you consider the official FAQ for GTA3....? OK, we'll see what Take2 themselves actually has to say on the matter-

We have also found that Nvidia GeForce cards seem to work better with this game than any other card. Certain cards, especially those from ATI, seem to exhibit more slowdown problems.

That's what Take2 has to say on it. But wait a second, I said there were issues with the AGP aperture setting, didn't I. I guess that would make me look pretty stupid and all if it wasn't on Take2's website-

I have done all the changes you gave me and the game is still choppy. We have found on some systems changing the APG Aperture setting in my BIOS from 64 to 4 fixed this lag issue. But we can not assist with Bios settings, you will have to consult your system manufacturer to see if you have this Bios setting.

And in this quote I don't quite know how to reply since you are so vague and imply that CS is broken-I want impirical proof outside of a tiny forum like rage3d or anandtech to validate your claim that it is broken-

Resolved Game Issues
This section provides information on game issues that have been resolved in the latest release of CATALYST?.

The display corruption noticed around the wheels in the game FI Racing Championship is now resolved
The health meter not being drawn in the game Bounty Hunter is now resolved
Texture corruption in the game Combat Flight Simulator 3 is now resolved
The binocular view not displaying properly in the game Project IGI2 is now resolved
Objects flickering in and out of view when playing Deadly Demo is now resolved
The display corruption noticed in Battlecruiser Millennium when placing the mouse cursor over the menu buttons is now resolved
The ground color not displaying correctly when playing the Jurassic Park demo is now resolved
The display corruption noticed when playing Heli Heroes is now resolved
The texture disappearing in the game AirStrike3D is now resolved
The General Protection Fault error appearing when playing Unreal 2; The Awakening is now resolved
The system not responding with playing the game SimCity 4 is now resolved
The system not responding when task switching between an OpenGL game and the desktop is now resolved
Full Screen Anti-Aliasing not being available when playing Anarchy Online is now resolved
The system failing to respond after pressing the ESC key when playing Half-life Counter Strike is now resolved

Link.

It's hard to respond if you only list one game and imply others without posting the exact problems you are having.

All Half-Life powered games for starters.

What I'm demanding of you is the premises to support claims that "ati's drivers are broken with certain games". You would have to give me valid data based on at least a 20% user base that shows that CS or GTA3 has artifacts with the graphics card that you are blaming accross all other hardware and software variables (this would require clean installs with up to date OSs).

What posts are you reading? I wasn't talking about artifacts, one was about mouse latency and CS was about the game hard locking.

But, i had very bad mouse latency issues with my GF3. In DeusEx, and GTA3, and ProjectIGI.

Is what I replied to. There are actually numerous different ways to try and work around it, the game is extremely buggy. I listed the one that worked for me. Of course, Take2 says GTA3 was running better on then current nV boards then it was on then current ATi boards, that should be thrown out completely?

I have ATi's release notes and Take2's own quotes to back me up for the issues you bring up. As I stated, I will back up my claims.

 

[LordOfTheBlings]

my goodness, who has the patience to read all this stuff? cliff notes people, cliff notes

btw, is it worth an extra $150 for the 256MB version of the 9800 PRO? i'm really struggling with this decision...

 

[mchammer187]

Originally posted by: LordOfTheBlings
my goodness, who has the patience to read all this stuff? cliff notes people, cliff notes

btw, is it worth an extra $150 for the 256MB version of the 9800 PRO? i'm really struggling with this decision...

no