NVIDIA and ATI

[Rogodin2]

My original response to this 20 year old fanboy still rings true.

Besides your posts being inane they are invalid.

Try running one box with two HDs with fresh installs of two identical OSs but one with the card you want to compare and the card you will compare too on the same monitor with the same color calibration.

Do you really think that your shoddy comarision is going to ellicit any kind of positive response from a tech forum composed of older more mature and more educated tech geeks than yourself?

I bet since you've been around books since 3 you've memorized all 52 volumes of THE GREAT BOOKS OF THE WESTERN WORLD.

I'm actually suprised that rollo hasn't jumped all over you-since he likes to come across as the paternal deity of this forum.

rogo

 

[BFG10K]

There you go, switching the goalposts again BFG.

I'm not switching anything, you're assuming that the card is fault since it was the only thing that changed. All I'm saying is that it may or may not be.

Now you're getting it-

Actually that was sarcasm. Are you honestly trying to tell me that your 5800 is the same speed as a 9700 Pro? Because if you are then that is simply a delusion.

Our host speaks about AF

Looks like our host forgot about the tiny little detail of the Radeon being able to do 16x AF, a mode that can sample twice as many texels that nVidia's best method can. But don't let reality get in the way of your fantasies.

Sorry BFG. He's been too busy writing software for his business to game, so he doesn't care if he has a 9700Pro.

Then it sounds like he's the last person you should be using an example to back your claims.

Believe it or not, not everyone on the planet shares your idea that the only relevant settings for a VGA are with everything maxed. Some of us care about smooth animation and resolution too.

What settings anyone runs at are irrelevant. The fundamental principle is that you can't use CPU limited settings to test GPUs, any more than you can use a driveway to test car performance.

 

[nRollo]

Are you honestly trying to tell me that your 5800 is the same speed as a 9700 Pro?

No, I've been trying to tell you that the only difference for me has been the depth of AA/AF the 5800 can run, and that for me the higher depths of a 9700Pro are a non issue. As you say, the settings I run at are pretty much cpu limited. I didn't think performance was smooth enough at the settings you prefer, it's a matter of preference.

Then it sounds like he's the last person you should be using an example to back your claims.

I never did, only responded to you saying he's clueless. There's a difference between "busy" and "clueless". I don't know what you do, but that guy codes in several languages, writes commercial applications, and knows enough about hardware and networking that he's set up and administered whole business networks. He's been making a living in IT/IS for 20 years. So if you are going to say he is "clueless" and have me believe it, you'll have to show me something more impressive than you know some video card jargon and functionality.

The fundamental principle is that you can't use CPU limited settings to test GPUs,

I agree, but you can use UT2003 Flybys as indicative of fill rate, and the benchmarks are useful in that they show what kind of framerates you might expect with similar hardware, or perhaps how well a company's drivers are optimized for the game or API in question.

BFG, you make WAY too big a deal about a couple notches on the quality slider. You'd have to look fairly hard for the difference between your 8X16X Performance settings and the 4X/8X Quality settings I'm still cpu limited at. You need another hobby besides justifying your video card purchases.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: BoomAM
Just so im clear:
VGA = 640x480
SVGA = 800x600
XGA = 1024x768
UXGA = 1280x1024
??? = 1600x1200
??? = 2048x1536

IIRC:

12x10 = SXGA
14x10 = SXGA+
16x12 = UXGA
20x15 = QVGA

 

[rommelrommel]

I don't get not talking about the Doom 3 alpha??? Isn't this like not being allowed to say the earth is round?

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: Pete

Originally posted by: BoomAM
Just so im clear:
VGA = 640x480
SVGA = 800x600
XGA = 1024x768
UXGA = 1280x1024
??? = 1600x1200
??? = 2048x1536

IIRC:

12x10 = SXGA
14x10 = SXGA+
16x12 = UXGA
20x15 = QVGA

Thanks Pete.

Originally posted by: rommelrommel
I don't get not talking about the Doom 3 alpha??? Isn't this like not being allowed to say the earth is round?

Nope. According to my warning off the moderators, if the alpha is discussed, then there will be legal issues involved. In other words ID can take legal action against AT, which we dont want.

There's a difference between "busy" and "clueless". I don't know what you do, but that guy codes in several languages, writes commercial applications, and knows enough about hardware and networking that he's set up and administered whole business networks. He's been making a living in IT/IS for 20 years. So if you are going to say he is "clueless" and have me believe it, you'll have to show me something more impressive than you know some video card jargon and functionality.

Rollo.
Im not disagreeing with you here, cos we`ve already established that both of us are too stubern to comprimise with each other, but just cos whoever it was that you know that has been working in IT for 20 years, does not mean in any way he knows his stuff. He may well know how to code in several languages, me may well know how to write programs, he may well know how to network, but in now way shape or form would that mean he knows about video cards/Drivers.
Without sticking up for BFG10K here, he knows his stuff, and he may not have a qualification or job working with video cards, but he sure as hell knows alot. Look at the guy who makes the Omega drivers, he doesnt work for a company division that makes drivers does he? So going on your logic, cos he hasnt worked with drivers before and hasnt been payed to make them, then he knows nothing.
Look at me. I dont have a computer hardware qualification (yet, only a year to go!), but i know my stuff very well, my lecturers at college, have been working with computers for 15-20years as well, but they know squat. I can teach them. I correct them for gods sakes.
And the fact that "making a living in IT/IS" usually implys that hes been working mainly with software. By experiance, people who`ve worked in IT, studyed IT, or something else to do with IT, spend 99% of their "IT time", working with software, such as office suites and coding things. Someone who works in Computer Maintenence on the other hand, will know far more about Computer hardware and the way a OS/Drivers/BIOS/Other low-level software works, than someone whos worked in "IT".

 

[bluemax]

Hey BoomAM; Just be sure to have someone proofread your reports before you hand them in - your spelling is atrocious! :Q

And I know from experience, teachers REALLY don't like you showing them up in front of the class... they'll start grading you on a low curve just to spite you.

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: bluemax
Hey BoomAM; Just be sure to have someone proofread your reports before you hand them in - your spelling is atrocious! :Q

And I know from experience, teachers REALLY don't like you showing them up in front of the class... they'll start grading you on a low curve just to spite you.

I know. But i couldnt be arsed going back to change it. lol
My Lecturer, he doesnt really mind to be honest, but i tend to be a bit more diplomatic than most people.

 

[nRollo]

BoomAM:
Although this guy does make his living primarily by programming these days, he has been a computer gamer since before the 8086 days. While he doesn't keep up as much on video card hardware as he'd like these days, he wouldn't be "clueless" in this area either.
Besides this, the two posters who said he's "clueless" and I can't use him as "proof of my arguments missed the point entirely:
I wasn't quoting him as an authority on anything, or implying his willingness to give me back the 9700Pro somehow lessens it's value.
The point was that I didn't consider the difference between my 5800 non ultra and the 9700Pro big enough to switch back. (even if you throw in doing so at the time would have made me $115 richer)
The only thing I could have possibly gained is the ability to run 8XAA 16XAF in Performance mode. I consider the settings I can run the 5800 at close enough to that level of IQ that it wasn't worth my time, even if you throw in the $115.

 

[BoomAM]

I can see where you coming from there Rollo.
But computer technologys move on, so even if he was a avid gamer back in the day, the video card technology has moved on significantly since then, so while he may know which cards are fast and which are slow, his "deeper" understandings of the video card will be somewhat limited. For example. The 5800ultra and 9700pro situation. He, like many other IT personal, will consider the 5800Ultra to be faster, simply because he`s heard of nVidia alot more than ATI, and so, cercums to the hype of the card.

 

[BFG10K]

No, I've been trying to tell you that the only difference for me has been the depth of AA/AF the 5800 can run, and that for me the higher depths of a 9700Pro are a non issue.

That's fine but it doesn't make the two cards equal. The 9700 Pro is the better card.

I never did, only responded to you saying he's clueless.

I only called him clueless in the context of how you used him as an example of not wanting the 9700 Pro. If he has a 9700 Pro and he doesn't want it then he's either not a gamer or he doesn't have a clue how powerful the card is.

In either case he is not qualified to be used as an example to aid your argument.

BFG, you make WAY too big a deal about a couple notches on the quality slider.

No, the issue I have is with using invalid settings to compare video cards.

 

[nRollo]

No, the issue I have is with using invalid settings to compare video cards.

LOL. I say the only valid benchmarks to compare video cards with are D3 and no AA/AF. These are the only valid ones.





What? You don't believe me any more than I believe you that your idea of valid settings is the only rational perspective? Well. What is this world coming to when I don't believe BFG, who "knows his stuff", knows the only "valid" settings to compare video cards at? It's a dark day in the history of the world.....

 

[BFG10K]

I'll tell you what Rollo, let's do a CPU test of our systems. The test I propose is to read and write files to and from a floppy disk.

I'd also like to test your car and my car for performance but the test I'd like to use involves driving around on the grass in a small patch of a 4 x 4 garden.

And when we're done with that we can also test how bright our living room lights are but I propose that we each leave the dial on the lowest setting possible.


Whats the matter Rollo, why don't you think those tests are valid? Are you the only one who can come up with valid tests?

 

[hjs]

[edit]sorry, didn't read everything.

But i don't like nVidia anymore, you can't tell what it's real performance is nowdays. Is it real or is it cheated? so i want to get rid of my ti-4200 as soon as possible

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: hjs
[edit]sorry, didn't read everything.

But i don't like nVidia anymore, you can't tell what it's real performance is nowdays. Is it real or is it cheated? so i want to get rid of my ti-4200 as soon as possible

Your choice, but the "scandel" wasnt with the GF4 series, just the FX`s. We already know that the GF4 Ti4200s are great cards. There really is no point to getting rid of it.

 

[nRollo]

BFG:
I'm not going to argue for nVidia anymore.
They've done a disservice to all of us who bought 5800 cards by removing them from their list of products and disavowing all knowledge of them to market their (admittedly better) FX5900 line.
This has caused a devaluation of the 5800 line that is, in my opinion, totally unecessary. (although it does bring it more in line with it's price/performance ratio)
As one of the people affected by this, I take exception to it, and will no longer defend this company's actions.
Be surprised if I don't order a R9800Pro soon. I've emailed nVidia in regard to this matter, if they offer me a "trade up" I may try a 5900, which looks to be comparable in performance other than the 6X/16X setting.

To be clear:
I'm not dissapointed the 5800 product, I'm just annoyed they sold at a premium price a couple weeks ago, and nVidia's actions have devalued them.
I think the $250 pricerange they're at now is more than fair, the card is between a 9700 and 9700Pro in performance and is now priced accordingly.

What annoys me most about this is that nVidia has several cards they should be more ashamed of than this (e.g. GF "4" MX) and those are listed as legacy products. The 5800s offer superior performance to everything in the nVidia product line except 5900s and have been hidden away like Grandma's drinking problem due to a corporate decision to distance themsleves from the FlowFX, something the non Ultra line doesn't even share.

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: Rollo
.To be clear:
I'm not dissapointed the 5800 product, I'm just annoyed they sold at a premium price a couple weeks ago, and nVidia's actions have devalued them.
I think the $250 pricerange they're at now is more than fair, the card is between a 9700 and 9700Pro in performance and is now priced accordingly.

What annoys me most about this is that nVidia has several cards they should be more ashamed of than this (e.g. GF "4" MX) and those are listed as legacy products. The 5800s offer superior performance to everything in the nVidia product line except 5900s and have been hidden away like Grandma's drinking problem due to a corporate decision to distance themsleves from the FlowFX, something the non Ultra line doesn't even share.

The GF FX5800`s were radically overpriced due to nVidia rushing them out of the doors cos they were losing market share to ATI. Im sure with a month or more of designing, the GF FX5800`s wouldnt have been so pricy.