Nvidia are on a roll

[Gstanfor]

fox5, a few points.

in development at a time when 3dfx, matrox, and ati were all threatening to release similarly capable cards, [n]just none ever did[/b]

Thats the difference between nvidia and most of its competition - they are capable of delivering their designs to the marketplace, while the competition sit in their labs and fiddle and twiddle theoretically powerful designs that never see the light of day.

You're wrong. Nvidia doesn't own 'pixel shaders' and never did, if anything it was microsoft who was doing the licensing, which they weren't.

Do you think microsoft comes up with directx ideas sitting in a vacuum? They don't - they go ask the graphics companies what they can realistically bring to market and base Direct3D around that. DirectX7 & DirectX8.0 were nvidia led all the way.
Ati were furious at the time that nvidia's shader technology was used pretty much verbatim, with no input from them - that is why DirectX8.1 came about with pixel shader 1.4 to appease them.

 

[redbox]

Originally posted by: munky
If Nvidia has taught me anything about the g80 launch, it's not to trust what they say they're gonna do or how they will do it with regard to upcoming products. All this time they've been downplaying the importance of unified shaders and HDR+AA, while working hard to implement exactly those features. So if Jen-Hsun says he's not working on a cpu, you can bet your @$$ he really is working on a cpu.

Also, I dont expect NV to pull any magic tricks for the r600 launch, like moving to a 512 bit bus or adding extra shaders. If the g70-g71 transition has shown me anything, it's that Nv will try to maximize profit margins, even if it means giving up some performance/features lead to the competition. They can probably make up the difference in marketing anyways. And face it, the r580 was and is faster than the single-gpu g71 cards, it's not as dead even as some people would like to make it seem. There were rumors and expectations that a 32-pipe monster g71 would crush the competition, but I said it wouldn't happen, it did not happen, and I'm saying the same thing will not happen this time either.

What's more interesting is that we still don't know how the g80 performs in DX10 games, and maybe it wont even matter since the games just keep getting pushed back, but that certainly remains one aspect of the card about which we do not know anything.

QFT! I don't know where people are getting the idea that Nvidia is going to be brining out the super version of the G80 around the time of R600. To me it just seams like wishfull thinking.

 

[BFG10K]

3dfx's wasn't that good.

Actually it was. Even now rotated grid super-sampling is only available through Crossfire/SLI AA modes.

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
fox5, a few points.

in development at a time when 3dfx, matrox, and ati were all threatening to release similarly capable cards, [n]just none ever did[/b]

Thats the difference between nvidia and most of its competition - they are capable of delivering their designs to the marketplace, while the competition sit in their labs and fiddle and twiddle theoretically powerful designs that never see the light of day.

You're wrong. Nvidia doesn't own 'pixel shaders' and never did, if anything it was microsoft who was doing the licensing, which they weren't.

Do you think microsoft comes up with directx ideas sitting in a vacuum? They don't - they go ask the graphics companies what they can realistically bring to market and base Direct3D around that. DirectX7 & DirectX8.0 were nvidia led all the way.
Ati were furious at the time that nvidia's shader technology was used pretty much verbatim, with no input from them - that is why DirectX8.1 came about with pixel shader 1.4 to appease them.

Is it actually licensed though? I don't deny that microsoft seeks inputs from companies, and seeing as how nvidia was the only company with a modern product at the time and was in the xbox, I'm sure they primarily influenced the design of directx at the time (while dx9 was more ati influenced it seems). I doubt nvidia invented pixel shaders though, I'd bet, like almost everything else, SGI had them first. And ATI, Matrox, and 3dfx all had their own similar shader architectures around the same time period internally, with ati's seeing light first to some extent in the original radeon. (and going completely unutilized, like most features ati introduces)

Actually it was. Even now rotated grid super-sampling is only available through Crossfire/SLI AA modes.

Rotated grid super sampling isn't the end all be all. You want removal of jaggies? ATI and nVidia have MSAA methods that do that better. You want texture sharpening? You can throw on all sorts of anisotropic filtering using the performance you saved by not going super sampling. I don't think the Voodoo5 could even do true trilinear with FSAA on.
Maybe under equivalent settings, 4x FSAA and bilinear filtering, the Voodoo5 may have an IQ advantage, but it still went down to a quarter of its performance with that level of AA. I'd much rather just use MSAA (at this point, not as it was originally introduced) and throw on higher resolutions or better filtering.

3dfx was all set to abandon super sampling as well. Rampage was intended to use MSAA (so I really doubt the idea that it's an nvidia creation, even if they had a card out first that utilized it, they also had the first card out doing super sampling) and 128 tap anisotropic to make up for the lack of innate texture filtering. Their MSAA method was likely inferior to current methods though, and I believe their 128 tap anisotropic was roughly the equivalent of current 16x AF. (which still would have been extremely good for the time, rampage likely would have followed along with the previous few voodoo cards of providing the absolute best image quality at release....and releasing 6 months after the competition with no real performance advantage and lacking greatly in features)

 

[BFG10K]

Rotated grid super sampling isn't the end all be all.

It's darned close. The only thing better is sparse grid or stochastic but nobody has those modes for full screen yet.

You want removal of jaggies? ATI and nVidia have MSAA methods that do that better.

But they don't do it better because MSAA can't touch textures. 8xS has visibly superior IQ to 8xQ and 16xQ while 16xS is simply in a class of its own.

You can throw on all sorts of anisotropic filtering

Anisotropic filtering isn't the anti-aliasing of textures because it fights a different class of problems.

I'd much rather just use MSAA (at this point, not as it was originally introduced) and throw on higher resolutions or better filtering.

I've extensively tested a vast number of single card AA modes and I've come to the conclusion that 8xS and 16xS are the best. Higher resolutions are actually quite poor at fighting aliasing especially texture aliasing. Something like 1280x960 with 8xS looks better than 1920x1440 with 4xAA.

The fact is once you get used to gaming at full screen SSAA it's very easy to spot the limitations of MSAA.

As for better filtering G80 has currently the best consumer AF available but it's not even close to being a subsitute for the lacking xS modes.

3dfx was all set to abandon super sampling as well.

What vendors do or don't do doesn't change reality. 97.02 doesn't have the xS modes but that doesn't change the fact that they offer superior IQ over 8xQ and 16xQ.

 

[Gstanfor]

Of course features get licenced to microsoft fox5. Look no further than S3's S3TC - licenced as DXTC in DirectX (and as such able to be used by anyone developing a DX GPU).

 

[imported_Crusader]

Originally posted by: redbox
QFT! I don't know where people are getting the idea that Nvidia is going to be brining out the super version of the G80 around the time of R600. To me it just seams like wishfull thinking.

Why? Thats the word on the chinese streets.. and they were pretty reliable on G80 news.

I dont see why that would be wishful thinking?
It'd be a nightmare if you were on the other side.. esp if R600 can barely best G80 itself.

It could be the final nail in the coffin for AMD high end GPUs if they get pummelled this time, as they are trying to get on their feet- their video division gets creamed on the high end (with the midrange following)? The board of directors and investors arent going to smile upon that to much after an expensive aquisition (when the company formerly known as ati has other, more profitable divisions to develop).

Just a thought. But I dont see any reason why Nvidia couldnt do what they want to do, in response to R600?

Whats stopping them?

 

[Gstanfor]

3dfx was all set to abandon super sampling as well. Rampage was intended to use MSAA

Then why didn't we see the fancy new AA mode in NV3x or NV4x? nvidia owns all of 3dfx's IP...

 

[redbox]

Originally posted by: Crusader

Originally posted by: redbox
QFT! I don't know where people are getting the idea that Nvidia is going to be brining out the super version of the G80 around the time of R600. To me it just seams like wishfull thinking.

Why? Thats the word on the chinese streets.. and they were pretty reliable on G80 news.

I dont see why that would be wishful thinking?
It'd be a nightmare if you were on the other side.. esp if R600 can barely best G80 itself.

It could be the final nail in the coffin for AMD high end GPUs if they get pummelled this time, as they are trying to get on their feet- their video division gets creamed on the high end (with the midrange following)? The board of directors and investors arent going to smile upon that to much after an expensive aquisition (when the company formerly known as ati has other, more profitable divisions to develop).

Just a thought. But I dont see any reason why Nvidia couldnt do what they want to do, in response to R600?

Whats stopping them?

You have a point if R600 can barely best G80 then DAMIT will have a very hard time. But that is assuming quite a bit. It is rumored that the R600 is going to have a 512mb bus. That alone is going to put up a very good fight against the G80. ATI also has gone with lower manufacturing than Nvidia along with GDDR4. Yes G80 has the capability to support all of those, but Nvidia hasn't.

It's not as simple as Nvidia doing just as they wish. They have to have enough high quality chips to release an ultra product. Chances are they are going to want to move to 80nm or lower. This is going to take them a little bit of time.

This article seams to mention that Nvidia is going to be releasing another G80 derivitive around Feb. the same time ATI is rumored to be releasing R600. The article mentions that it could be either another cut down which seams likely as manufacturing matures. Or a dual gpu chip like the 7950GX2 which doesn't seam too likely given the power demand and size of the G80.

Do you have some links that show Nvidia releasing say an 8800gtx "ultra" type chip? I am just looking for more information on the new generation of chips.

redbox

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Of course features get licenced to microsoft fox5. Look no further than S3's S3TC - licenced as DXTC in DirectX (and as such able to be used by anyone developing a DX GPU).

I don't believe that was my comment.

What I'm questioning is whether nvidia licensed their pixel shader tech to Microsoft. Can you pull up any documents showing the licensing agreement; it's pretty easy to find documents on S3TC being licensed.

Then why didn't we see the fancy new AA mode in NV3x or NV4x? nvidia owns all of 3dfx's IP...

Huh? NV3x and NV4x did implement MSAA (and introduced new variations of it from the previous generations), but they did not implement any 3dfx 3d tech, there's no T-buffer or M-buffer in either product line.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: redbox

QFT! I don't know where people are getting the idea that Nvidia is going to be brining out the super version of the G80 around the time of R600. To me it just seams like wishfull thinking.

It could also be said that it's wishful thinking that the R600 will top the current G80. NVIDIA may have blind sided em this time and they will not have what it takes. I have no idea, but several people around here talk like the know the future with nothing to back it up.

As far as I'm concerned the R600 is just a rumor and will remain such until there is product on the shelf.

 

[redbox]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: redbox

QFT! I don't know where people are getting the idea that Nvidia is going to be brining out the super version of the G80 around the time of R600. To me it just seams like wishfull thinking.

It could also be said that it's wishful thinking that the R600 will top the current G80. NVIDIA may have blind sided em this time and they will not have what it takes. I have no idea, but several people around here talk like the know the future with nothing to back it up.

As far as I'm concerned the R600 is just a rumor and will remain such until there is product on the shelf.

Wait so you are saying you don't even believe that there is an R600 coming at all? Wow...just wow.

 

[ShadowOfMyself]

Someone is trying to reason with Crusader, Wreckage and Gstanfor all at once :shocked:

Now Ive seen it all

 

[Keysplayr]

Wreckage and redbox. Lets try to be real for about 8 or 9 seconds shall we?

We all KNOW R600 is on it's way, and also, by the time R600 comes to retail, there could very well be a refresh of G80 that is more powerful.

You guys just like to get on each others nerves. I gotta say, it's pretty silly for the rest of us to watch.

 

[redbox]

I backed what I said with an article. Did you read it? I don't doubt that it is possible that Nvidia could bring out an ultra version. Just I don't think they will be able to bring out an ultra version this soon. Feb is what four months away. I am expecting a show alot like what happened with the 7 series and the ATI x1800. It took Nvidia about 6 months last time to have enough yield with their chips to release a faster chip (not to mention the availiblity issues with that one), and they never did it with the g71. They just stuck two of them together. I just can't see them having good enough yields to outpace the 8800gtx in that amount of time. If anything I suspect we will see a cut down version put in between the gtx and gts. With the size of this chip and the power required I doubt we will see another Dual pcb experiment.

And those that think the Nvidia refresh will be out at around the time R600 is out? It was nearly ten months from the time Nvidia launched g70 to the time g71 came out. If anyone has any link that says the refreshes will be out in Feb I would be interested. I have just been hearing some crazy things from some people and wanted to know if there have been any links to back up some of the claims.

redbox.

 

[Keysplayr]

Well. Whatever happens, happens. My point is that it is no big deal no matter how things transpire. Anyway, for what it is worth, this seems to be a repeat of the last 3 gens. Nvidia is first to market with a new gen (since the 6800 debut) and ATI was suddenly late with their offerings. I really think they just like to sit back, wait for Nvidia to release their best stuff, and then postpone their own release just to see what they can possibly do to outrun Nvidia.
This happens all the time. I believe the 6 series was out well before the X800's, and the 7800's were out WELL before the X1800's, and now again, the G80 is out months before the R600. Whether this is intentional or not, Hell, I don't have any idea. But I doubt if we will ever see a release from AMD/ATI before and equivalent Nvidia launch. Last time ATI was first with a new gen was the R300 AFAIK. But I don't know if that was an anwer to GeForce 3 or 4 or was it just a step ahead of NV30. Dunno. Don't really care.

 

[Matt2]

I'd be weary of waiting for R600 because ATI's probably gonna release R620 (or whatever it is) 7 weeks after R600

 

[tvdang7]

Originally posted by: Matt2
I'd be weary of waiting for R600 because ATI's probably gonna release R620 (or whatever it is) 7 weeks after R600

lol might be true. but theres not other surprises really.
x1800 was normal then x1900 was shaders

something like that could happen if the initial r600 wasnt 80nm like everyone wants however
fingers crossed.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Do you think microsoft comes up with directx ideas sitting in a vacuum? They don't - they go ask the graphics companies what they can realistically bring to market and base Direct3D around that. DirectX7 & DirectX8.0 were nvidia led all the way.
Ati were furious at the time that nvidia's shader technology was used pretty much verbatim, with no input from them - that is why DirectX8.1 came about with pixel shader 1.4 to appease them.

And guess which graphics company led the development of DX9 and DX10? I'll give you a hint.... It wasn't Nvidia. In fact, Nvidia wasn't even CONSULTED when the DX9 specifications were drawn up. And, obviously, ATI has worked closely with Microsoft on DX10.

 

[coldpower27]

Originally posted by: Matt2
I'd be weary of waiting for R600 because ATI's probably gonna release R620 (or whatever it is) 7 weeks after R600

Doubtful, typically graphics card companies don't release a new GPU 2 - 3 months after unless the prior one was late already and the latter one is ontime/early.

R600 is supposed to come in around Mid March ish, if ATI's past high end launches from the year 2000 onwards are to be used as a guideline.

Considering the timeline I keep hearing is Feburary I think they are on time for R600.

As well considering when R600 is arriving it should be mildy faster then Geforce 8800 GTX. I don't expect anything higher then 10-20% at the most, more would be icing on the cake.

 

[schtuga]

Originally posted by: munky
If Nvidia has taught me anything about the g80 launch, it's not to trust what they say they're gonna do or how they will do it with regard to upcoming products. All this time they've been downplaying the importance of unified shaders and HDR+AA, while working hard to implement exactly those features


Quote:
D. Kirk: Our DirectX 10 GPU may be Unified-Shader, or not. Everyone thinks I said "we won't go there (Unified-Shader)." But what I said is just you can't know it until (our GPU) debuts.

. So if Jen-Hsun says he's not working on a cpu, you can bet your @$$ he really is working on a cpu.


I agree here,who knows what they may be planning,but I think if they do it will be for mobile/handhelds only

Also, I dont expect NV to pull any magic tricks for the r600 launch, like moving to a 512 bit bus or adding extra shaders. If the g70-g71 transition has shown me anything, it's that Nv will try to maximize profit margins, even if it means giving up some performance/features lead to the competition. They can probably make up the difference in marketing anyways. And face it, the r580 was and is faster than the single-gpu g71 cards, it's not as dead even as some people would like to make it seem. There were rumors and expectations that a 32-pipe monster g71 would crush the competition, but I said it wouldn't happen, it did not happen, and I'm saying the same thing will not happen this time either.

I agree here also,I think they will try to move to 65 process before adding 512 bit/1g gddr4 ram(june-sep),but one must also remember the 7800gtx 512,wasn't much,but they did have something to answer with none the less.And with the time they are being given now,whos to say the R600 doesn't launch until feb/mar,that's 3/4 months.

What's more interesting is that we still don't know how the g80 performs in DX10 games, and maybe it wont even matter since the games just keep getting pushed back, but that certainly remains one aspect of the card about which we do not know anything.

I agree again,I've heard(no links or spy knowledge)the R600 should be significantly better in next gen games,but heat is a problem and they are working on it.If Dammit could steal some of Nv's thunder with some leaked benches,don't you think they would,unless they can't due to not being ready, or it isn't a clear winner yet and needs some tweaking?


What I find the most interesting,is that ATI already have a US chip in the xbox 360 ,so they should have had a jump on the competition.Yet BAM,out of nowhere, Nv releases a unified chip,to great reviews a good 3 mos before ATI can compete.You can't say anything bad about ATI's tech,just how they have been managed.Hopefully AMD gets them on the right track.Because if they play catch up through 07 you can bet there will be changes made in the graphics dept.

 

[coldpower27]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Well. Whatever happens, happens. My point is that it is no big deal no matter how things transpire. Anyway, for what it is worth, this seems to be a repeat of the last 3 gens. Nvidia is first to market with a new gen (since the 6800 debut) and ATI was suddenly late with their offerings. I really think they just like to sit back, wait for Nvidia to release their best stuff, and then postpone their own release just to see what they can possibly do to outrun Nvidia.
This happens all the time. I believe the 6 series was out well before the X800's, and the 7800's were out WELL before the X1800's, and now again, the G80 is out months before the R600. Whether this is intentional or not, Hell, I don't have any idea. But I doubt if we will ever see a release from AMD/ATI before and equivalent Nvidia launch. Last time ATI was first with a new gen was the R300 AFAIK. But I don't know if that was an anwer to GeForce 3 or 4 or was it just a step ahead of NV30. Dunno. Don't really care.

Yeah, I don't think what ATI keeps doing these days is all that effective, in order for them to be more competitive they need to launch before Nvidia for once. They can't lawsyd be following Nvidia in introducing new stuff. Take a chance ATI!!! Go on you can do it!!

The X800 Series came about ~ 1 month after the 6800 was released though it should have launched around the same time as the 6800 series if ATI's average launch schedule timeframe is to be used.

The X1800 should have launched around June/July not October, that launch in particular was later then it should have been.

The X1900 launch was on time thankfully though and hence was before the 7900 launch which was also on time.

The Radeon 9700 was out early because ATI didn't work on a Radeon 8500 refresh while Nvidia refreshed NV2x technology a couple of times, hence being much later with NV3x, then anticipated, I am not even sure the Ti4800 Series would have ever came into existance if the 0.13 micron problems didn't surface with Nvidia for Geforce FX.

ATI could pull a early launch again if they wish to just launch R600 and then don't make any refresh of that and go straight to R700 from there. Though I would find that unlikely a the average trend these days has been the lengthening of product cycles rather then shortening them. As well as milking a architecture as much as possible before switching to a new one. Both of which make financial sense.

 

[coldpower27]

Originally posted by: redbox
I backed what I said with an article. Did you read it? I don't doubt that it is possible that Nvidia could bring out an ultra version. Just I don't think they will be able to bring out an ultra version this soon. Feb is what four months away. I am expecting a show alot like what happened with the 7 series and the ATI x1800. It took Nvidia about 6 months last time to have enough yield with their chips to release a faster chip (not to mention the availiblity issues with that one), and they never did it with the g71. They just stuck two of them together. I just can't see them having good enough yields to outpace the 8800gtx in that amount of time. If anything I suspect we will see a cut down version put in between the gtx and gts. With the size of this chip and the power required I doubt we will see another Dual pcb experiment.

And those that think the Nvidia refresh will be out at around the time R600 is out? It was nearly ten months from the time Nvidia launched g70 to the time g71 came out. If anyone has any link that says the refreshes will be out in Feb I would be interested. I have just been hearing some crazy things from some people and wanted to know if there have been any links to back up some of the claims.

redbox.

Well using Nvidia past high end launches since the year 2000 as a guideline, the average for them is on the order of magnitude of about 5 months, so a refresh could potentially happen in April anything closer then that would be early, which makes it fairly improbable.

I as well agree that Nvidia will be unlikely to release a Dual PCB single card solution ala the 7950GX2, with G80 technology in it's current form. Hell, 1 G80 has a die that is greater then 2xG71's. So 2xG80 seems really unlikely.

Though a Spring refresh in April on the 80nm node would be nice.

I think the Geforce 8800 GT has a decent probability of existing as the code the driver string already was shown to exist in one of the driver sets placed right between the 8800 GTS and 8800 GTX.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: redbox
With the size of this chip and the power required I doubt we will see another Dual pcb experiment.

Experiment? LOL. That "experiment" was the fastest single card last gen. The GX2 was based off of their mobile chip. There is no reason that when the 8800 mobile comes out that they can not make another GX2, in fact I bet they will. AMD 4x4 is Quad core + Quad SLI. Since AMD does not have the Engineering to create such a card, it's up to NVIDIA to continue to lead the way.

 

[A5]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: redbox
With the size of this chip and the power required I doubt we will see another Dual pcb experiment.

Experiment? LOL. That "experiment" was the fastest single card last gen. The GX2 was based off of their mobile chip. There is no reason that when the 8800 mobile comes out that they can not make another GX2, in fact I bet they will. AMD 4x4 is Quad core + Quad SLI. Since AMD does not have the Engineering to create such a card, it's up to NVIDIA to continue to lead the way.

Making a 7900GT with a PCI-Express lane divider and then attaching the SLi bridge for you isn't exactly complex engineering.

Don't know why anyone has so much love for a company - all they care about you for is your money (and I guess the free marketing that the BB trolls do for them).