NVIDIA Asks Retailers To Stop Selling To Miners & Sell To Gamers Instead,(wccf)

[lixlax]

I agree that Nvidia is in a pretty good position right now. Volta is more or less ready to go and they can keep supplying Pascals until the bubble bursts. Then realease Volta at reasonable prices on people will still buy your cards since those are better than Pascals anyway.
AMD is in a much harder spot since their current cards aren't very competitive in gaming and they doesn't seem to have anything new/better planned for 2018.

As for used cards flooding the market- this is a risky business even if you can get those very cheap (for less than 50% of the normal price). I personally wouldn't touch a ex miner unless somebody gives those away for next to nothing, I got my fingers burnt twice and in the end still had to buy a new card (ofcourse many people got lucky as well and their cards didn't die so soon).
IF the craze ends in the coming months i'd be more than happy to replace my current card with a nice custom Vega 56 instead of a cheap ex-miner. It's like buying a 3-year old used car for a little less than other offerings of the same age but it has already driven 500000km.

I expect the AIB's that offer the longest warranty will be hit hardest because of the RMA's. At least few AMD only vendors (Sapphire and XFX) learned something from the last bubble and are making their cards with very easily replacable fans these days (so you don't have to send in a whole card if the fans are busted).

 

[Headfoot]

I don't see whats so terrible about ex-mining cards, as long as they have good fans with dual ball bearing or other long lifespan fan type. You can be pretty much guaranteed it was run in power limited mode, undervolted, temperature controlled, and actively monitored. It'll have more time on the fan, so thats why you'd need to be cautious about that, but I dont see how it is in any way worse than a used card from a gamer

 

[SMOGZINN]

I dont see how it is in any way worse than a used card from a gamer

It is not, in fact it is probably better. The gamers card was probably overclocked, and when not gaming was still run constantly to mine while still overclocked.

 

[bob4432]

Interesting idea. I hate the idea of large rebates because they screw it up way to often for my tastes, but it is a solution.

I like the current idea of giving big discounts on the card if bought with other hardware like how New Egg and MicroCenter is starting to do. It has got me thinking about upgrading my entire system instead of just a GPU upgrade.

I wonder if that trend is going to end up with a bunch of that hardware resold on ebay? If so that should depress the resell value of the secondary market. In a few months we might be able to pick up a cheap CPU and MB from this.

From what I have seen, at least with newegg (no microcenter around me), it looks to me like they are trying to get rid of old stock as they are pairing the higher end gpus (rx 580) with 1920x1080 or even 1680x1050 displays. I have yet to see them pair it w/ a 3840x2160 or even a 2560x1440 display, which is what one would think an upgrade for display to be. I have had a 1920x1200 display for a looong time, and if I was going to upgrade my display, I would definitely not get a lower resolution unit.

 

[airfathaaaaa]

It's going to be entertaining to watch how mad the retailers will be when Nvidia opens web-shops in all regions and stops shipping cards to retailers.

Nvidia found the perfect opportunity to cut out another middle-man.

Perfectly executed.

and who is gonna follow? evga only? cause surely the rest of the big ones will flip nvidia

 

[TeknoBug]

I don't see whats so terrible about ex-mining cards, as long as they have good fans with dual ball bearing or other long lifespan fan type. You can be pretty much guaranteed it was run in power limited mode, undervolted, temperature controlled, and actively monitored. It'll have more time on the fan, so thats why you'd need to be cautious about that, but I dont see how it is in any way worse than a used card from a gamer

A used card from a gamer usually has far less wear & tear than a used card from a miner.

 

[SMOGZINN]

A used card from a gamer usually has far less wear & tear than a used card from a miner.

That matters if that gamer was mining on the side. Gamers often overclock their cards, and then if they do some mining when not gaming (and why wouldn't you?) I doubt they turn the OC down for it.

 

[Hitman928]

That matters if that gamer was mining on the side. Gamers often overclock their cards, and then if they do some mining when not gaming (and why wouldn't you?) I doubt they turn the OC down for it.

If they're mining and then just taking breaks from mining to game, I think most people would consider that a miner. When people say cards from a gamer, they mean cards that haven't been used for mining, in which case they will have significantly better MTTF (mean time to failure) as a used card than a mining card, whether it took gaming "breaks" or not. The only exception might be if someone had a hard overclock on a gaming card and gamed like 70 hours a week.

 

[SMOGZINN]

If they're mining and then just taking breaks from mining to game, I think most people would consider that a miner. When people say cards from a gamer, they mean cards that haven't been used for mining, in which case they will have significantly better MTTF (mean time to failure) as a used card than a mining card, whether it took gaming "breaks" or not. The only exception might be if someone had a hard overclock on a gaming card and gamed like 70 hours a week.

I get what you are saying, but in reality someone selling a single card that they had in their 'gaming' machine that mined when not in use is going to call themselves a gamer and how would we know the difference. We can imagine that this is probably going to be fairly common in something like Anandtech's For Sale/Trade forum in about a year.

I think what I'm saying is that with a card that was obviously used in mining (like the seller has 50 of them listed) we pretty much know what we are getting. With the single card sold by a enthusiast we have no real idea. It could be a card that was used 10 hours a week or it could be one that has been overclocked to the max and running hot 24/7 for the last two years.

 

[Headfoot]

A used card from a gamer usually has far less wear & tear than a used card from a miner.

How? What specifically is "worn" and "torn"? Besides fans, like I mentioned earlier.

 

[Hitman928]

I get what you are saying, but in reality someone selling a single card that they had in their 'gaming' machine that mined when not in use is going to call themselves a gamer and how would we know the difference. We can imagine that this is probably going to be fairly common in something like Anandtech's For Sale/Trade forum in about a year.

I think what I'm saying is that with a card that was obviously used in mining (like the seller has 50 of them listed) we pretty much know what we are getting. With the single card sold by a enthusiast we have no real idea. It could be a card that was used 10 hours a week or it could be one that has been overclocked to the max and running hot 24/7 for the last two years.

I understand what you're saying and it's a fair argument, it's just different than the argument being made earlier. Identifying mining cards obviously is impossible unless the seller identifies them as such or is selling large batches of used cards all at once. But I know several people who have a gaming machine and then a mining machine with 2-3 cards in it so if they decide to sell the cards 1-2 at a time, you'd never know unless they tell you they were mining cards.

Either way, the relevant bit is that cards used for mining for any extended period of time will have shorter life spans on average as used cards than those used just for gaming (outside of some extreme examples). That fact is what people were referring to as not wanting to buy a second hand mining card vs a used gaming card and how it can cause a major disruption in the GPU market (both new and used) if mining profitability tanks

 

[Hitman928]

How? What specifically is "worn" and "torn"? Besides fans, like I mentioned earlier.

All the components on a graphics card, the GPU, VRMs, discrete caps, etc., all have a limited life span by and large determined by the amount of time that they are drawing current and the amount of current. So a card, run 24/7, even at reduced current, will have a significantly shorter lifespan than one run for an average gaming amount per day. There are also the fans which have to spin 24/7 which will die sooner as well. Which component dies first depends on the design and quality of the individual components.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I understand what you're saying and it's a fair argument, it's just different than the argument being made earlier. Identifying mining cards obviously is impossible unless the seller identifies them as such or is selling large batches of used cards all at once. But I know several people who have a gaming machine and then a mining machine with 2-3 cards in it so if they decide to sell the cards 1-2 at a time, you'd never know unless they tell you they were mining cards.

Either way, the relevant bit is that cards used for mining for any extended period of time will have shorter life spans on average as used cards than those used just for gaming (outside of some extreme examples). That fact is what people were referring to as not wanting to buy a second hand mining card vs a used gaming card and how it can cause a major disruption in the GPU market (both new and used) if mining profitability tanks

I think what it means is that the second hand market has recently become more dangerous for buyers in general. Hopefully we will see that reflected in price soon.

 

[Hitman928]

I think what it means is that the second hand market has recently become more dangerous for buyers in general. Hopefully we will see that reflected in price soon.

Yes, this is very true. I wouldn't expect to see much of a change until mining becomes far less profitable or AMD/Nvidia great increase their production (which I don't think will happen quickly at all).

 

[Headfoot]

All the components on a graphics card, the GPU, VRMs, discrete caps, etc., all have a limited life span by and large determined by the amount of time that they are drawing current and the amount of current. So a card, run 24/7, even at reduced current, will have a significantly shorter lifespan than one run for an average gaming amount per day. There are also the fans which have to spin 24/7 which will die sooner as well. Which component dies first depends on the design and quality of the individual components.

Is there any data to support this or is this just pure speculation? I suspect that a lower, constant load is less "draining" than overvolted, overclocked gaming GPUs even given the difference in % under load.

And realistically, the maximum lifespan of a GPU is about 5-7 years. If the lifespan gets reduced from 25 years to 23 years of use, its pretty irrelevant.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Is there any data to support this or is this just pure speculation?

Just look at a de-rating chart for a component, like a cap or a transistor / MOSFET or something, they have estimated lifespans, and they go by average and max temp. Longer running at higher temps == shorter lifespan.

 

[Headfoot]

But does it reduce lifespan in a realistically impactful way? Are we talking 25->20 years or 10 -> 5, thats what would matter to the used buyer, and to that effect I am not sure if there is any data available to us. The most powerful would be data showing higher RMAs (excluding Fan problems, because I think the fan wear and tear issue is well understood)

 

[Hitman928]

But does it reduce lifespan in a realistically impactful way? Are we talking 25->20 years or 10 -> 5, thats what would matter to the used buyer, and to that effect I am not sure if there is any data available to us. The most powerful would be data showing higher RMAs (excluding Fan problems, because I think the fan wear and tear issue is well understood)

That information is unfortunately impossible to know without data from the manufacturer or doing the testing yourself which is just a wee bit cost prohibitive. There is a white paper bouncing around that I've seen for I believe a Keplar generation Tesla GPU which reports a 25 year MTTF for the GPU (assuming 24/7 use).

My own anecdotal experience as well as general component knowledge is that your fans and power/voltage regulation circuitry is where you'll experience the most problems. The ASICs built on the premier nodes they use for GPUs are usually very reliable. The other components AIBs put on their boards to keep their margins as high as possible, not as much. In general I think you could tell a lot about expected lifetime from the amount of warranty provided as companies want to provide the most warranty possible to be competitive, without actually having to fulfill many warranty claims.

In my personal experience, again anecdotal, I've had 3/10 mining cards die on me within 2 years of operation, two of them brand new and 1 was strictly used for gaming for about 1 year before that. All underclocked and undervolted and kept as cool as possible. In my experience before mining, I hadn't experienced a single GPU failure (PC gaming for 20 years) except for 1 card that was 5 years old. Additionally, I know of about 5 gaming cards all the same age or older used by real life friends all but 1 of which are still working fine, and that one was a 7970 bought back in 2012 which just died.

So while this last paragraph was not statistically significant and just my personal experience, it is enough for me personally (as well as some basic electronic degradation knowledge) to be wary buying or recommending others buy a used mining card without taking that into account when looking at the price.

 

[happy medium]

A good article on the subject.

https://www.polygon.com/2018/1/26/1...rices-nvidia-amd-cryptocurrency-mining-stores

 

[Dribble]

You've got to laugh. There must be 1000+ posts on this forum castigating Nvidia for their decision to have a founders edition card, sell that directly and keep selling it for the lifetime of the card. Most of that was over them being overpriced. Now pretty well the only mid-high end cards you can buy (AMD or Nvidia) at rrp are those founders editions (direct from Nvidia). They are easily the cheapest cards on the market!

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Honestly, I have far more concern over heat cycling on leadless solder than I do on 'component drain' from constant use. I've most more vid cards (and other internal computer components) to solder cracking/failing than even fan bearing failures, over ~20yrs of doing this. I'd expect mining cards to last as long/longer than 'normal use' cards, if only because they basically operate in a static temp environment at all times.

 

[ZGR]

Honestly, I have far more concern over heat cycling on leadless solder than I do on 'component drain' from constant use. I've most more vid cards (and other internal computer components) to solder cracking/failing than even fan bearing failures, over ~20yrs of doing this. I'd expect mining cards to last as long/longer than 'normal use' cards, if only because they basically operate in a static temp environment at all times.

Isn't that similar to the infamous "RROD" (Red Ring of Death) on the Xbox 360? The rapid heating and cooling of the solder eventually caused failure iirc.

 

[thilanliyan]

Isn't that similar to the infamous "RROD" (Red Ring of Death) on the Xbox 360? The rapid heating and cooling of the solder eventually caused failure iirc.

Yes, and I think a similar thing was happening to the original "fat" PS3s.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Isn't that similar to the infamous "RROD" (Red Ring of Death) on the Xbox 360? The rapid heating and cooling of the solder eventually caused failure iirc.

Yes, it's also why 'baking' certain computer components can (on occasion) fix them for a limited time; it remelts the cracked solder to permit normal operation until the next time it fails (usually pretty shortly afterward).

Not saying non-heat cycled components can't fail... I'm sure if you left a random vid card in a box for a century, it wouldn't work when you fired it up, but I'd still wager on an underclocked constantly-run mining card over a card that flips between 35c and 85c dozens of times every day.

 

[MrTeal]

Yes, it's also why 'baking' certain computer components can (on occasion) fix them for a limited time; it remelts the cracked solder to permit normal operation until the next time it fails (usually pretty shortly afterward).

Not saying non-heat cycled components can't fail... I'm sure if you left a random vid card in a box for a century, it wouldn't work when you fired it up, but I'd still wager on an underclocked constantly-run mining card over a card that flips between 35c and 85c dozens of times every day.

Polymer caps like you see in GPU power supplies actually pretty short rated lives (like 1000 hours), but that's at rated voltage, current and temperature. I pretty much use Panasonic SP caps in most of my VRM designs, and they exhibit a 10x increase in rated lifetime per 20°C drop in temps. IE, 1000 hours at 125°C, 10k at 105°C, 100k at 85°C, etc.

Even outside heat cycling effects, for a lot of components running 1 hour a day in an OCed system near max temperature is going to cause more degradation than running 24 hours underclocked and 40°C cooler in an open air mining rig. Of course, if they're running 24 hours a day and also running hot, that's going to be an issue.