Sorry in advance, this is going to be a big post as I didn't see this thread until recently.
<<<how can you say that nvidia can't create a competitive product? if it wasn't for nvidia, i doubt powervr and the kyro2 would have existed>>>
????...would you like to shed some light on that statement jobberd because it makes no sense to me. PowerVR were making vid cards before Nvidia, there architecture is totally different to anything Nvidia has ever used. So how could Nvidia have brought about PowerVR or Kyro's existence??
<<<That is probably exactly what would have happened. ATI has always been a stagmenting company. Only recently have they started to contribute to the industry. STM only got back into the PC market because Sega died. At least NVidia is still focused on both the console and the PC market while at the same time expanding there product line.>>>
Not true, STM have nothing to do with Sega. When Sega agreed to use PowerVR chips in their arcade machines and Dreamcast console the licence for those chips (Neon250) was with NEC who manufactured the chips. So it was NEC who decided not to be in the PC market and to instead go with the safety of sega's arcade and Dreamcast systems. STM only took over the manufacturing of PowerVR designs with Kyro so its just wrong to say that STM only came into the market because Dreamcast died or that they would be stagnent and not bother with the market if Nvidia wasn't so competative. I mean what sort of sense does that make anyway, if Nvidia wasn't hear that would make it all the more easy for STM to brake into the industry so why wouldn't they, are you saying their simply in the graphics card industry to challenge Nvidia and nothing more?
<<<Ignorant people automatically see the company on top as some how wronging them. It's the same mentallity that people get when they're less financially endowed than other people.>>>
And some ignorant people miss the point completely, this isn't about a company being big its about a company being a complete ass all the time.
<<<While some actions of NVIDIA, Intel(now more recently since losing marketshare) and MS(long history of this in particular) are not the most "sporting" of a company that is topdog at the moment, they certainly aren't the bad guy just because they happen to make a better product.>>>
What the hell are you talking about???, what does this have to do with Nvidia making better products, its about uncompetetive unfair practices like the Kyro II PDF file and wandering around computer shows like a dictator telling people that they better not dare show Kyro II boards or else, IMO companies should have to make a good product, put it on the shelf and make sure its better then the other cards on the shelf not try to stop the better cards getting to the shelf in the first place. Sure they can be underhanded and do nasty uncompetative things that in the end hurt everyone buying graphics card but if they get caught then they better also be ready to make enimies.
<<<I was just posting a comparison. I dont agree that any company is evil.. there is no such thing as its all legal business marketting.>>>
Why do you associate legality with good and bad?, there not the same thing. Its legal to have abortions but millions of people feel that is evil (not me but I'm just making a point). Its also perfectly legal for a consumer like powervr2 to dislike a company when there trying to restrict consumer options.
<<<As this clearly shows, modern DX8 games get a huge benefit out of hardware T&L, and high end CPU's are not enough to compensate for this. Without T&L, at these high detail settings, the sim is not playable, but with T&L it is playable.>>>
You've made the fatal mistake of taking Geforce numbers with and without HW T&L and assuming that is the same as a none HW T&L card like Kyro II. I've seen lots of strange numbers from Geforce cards in the past that makes me think that when HW T&L is deliberatly turned off on Geforce cards there slower then other none HW T&L cards. Its almost as if Nvidia deliberately did this to make the gap from HW T&L to SW T&L bigger, I don't know if this still happens with Geforce cards but whether it does or not you should not try to compare its SW T&L numbers to a Kyro II.
<<<powerVR2: Do you or do you not admit the GTS is faster than a Kyro II in most of today's and any foreseeable future games?>>>
That all depends on what resolution you play at, what system you using and if you care about images quality (if you do that would rule out the GTS's 16bit numbers). For the second part of your question powervr2 would need to be some kind of time traveller because you never know how a game will run on any specific chip until you try it.
<<<Do you admit that Kyro II's driver is still unstable and is currently trying to prove itself stable?>>>
Rubbish, its one of the most stable cards I've ever had, it and the Voodoo5 and Kyro 1 are in the same league of stability followed by geforce and then Radeon (I've had them all).
<<<When you look at these two features, and the fact Kyro II arent much more cheaper than GTS, it will appear as a not very likely strong competitor>>>
That depends where you live.
<<<but even us must admit that the nVidia products are currently vastly superior>>>
I'm sorry but thats total crap, the Geforce 3 is superior simply just because its faster and has more features but not all Nvidia cards are even as good never mind vastly supperior.
<<<Btw, what does the Kyro II has that a Radeon LE shipping at $65 cant match?>>>
Well its much faster, mor stable in Win98 and allot more stable in Win2k, it has more reliable FSAA and faster FSAA, it has much better looking 16bit and far better stencil buffering support.
<<<However, you keep forcing your opinion on others>>>
He's simply giving his opinion, he did't put a knife to your throat and force you to aggree.
<<<This article is absurd. People want to make money. Since STM makes nvidia make less money, they want STM gone. Simple as that. Whats to say they should be benevolent and just let STM develop so they can take away more of nvidia's profits? There is no way that they can keep evyerone from buying a kyro ii so its just easier to reduce the supply. Hell, if I or just about anyone else here was Nvidia, we would want to make more money and get rid of competition.>>>
Thats like saying that someone who marries someone for there money and then waits till they die and gets there forune is perfectly nice for doing that just because they want the money. Wanting more money doesn't suddenly make something ok or right, its as simple as this, Nvidia are using dirty tactics to try to limit a innovative product, therefore all there doing is hurting the consumer (me) I now dislike Nvidia for what there doing. Are you saying that me or powervr2 can't dislike Nvidia for what we feel are dirty tactics and can't voice or dislikes for those tactics? Yes its over the top to say there evil, of course there not and I'd go so far as to assume that powervr2 doesn't really mean that there evil, he's simply exagerating, there certainly a nasty underhanded company though.
<<<I for one am just happy that ST has been able to pick themselves back off from the floor and release the Kyro series cards. That PVR chip Matrox used in the M3d card, and the Neon 250 were sure lacking.>>>
STM have never been on the floor as it wasn't STM behind those chips, it was NEC.
<<<The KryoIII sounds like it could become the next 3DFX VSA-100 deal. Great technology on paper, but when it comes to actually releasing the product, whoops!>>>
Any logic behind this?, does IMGTEC or STM resemble 3dfx's situation?...nope, does the Kyro II resemle VSA-100 in any way?...nope, its not even the same arcitecture, so what is the basis of your assumption that it on't come out on time. Were have STM ever earned the rep of not being able to deliver with PowerVR products? They brought out Kyro 1 and then a few months latter they brought out Kyro II, why should Kyro III be so late (Kyro II 200mhz will replace normal Kyro II for the same price in a couple of months BTW).
<<<What if ATI bought Kyro and actually developed tile rendering in the context of the Radeon?>>>
Well firstly ATI couldn't buy Kyro as Imagination technologies don't sell there designs they licence them. Secondly even if they bought the single design for Kyro it wouldn't give them the patents for all the TBR tech that IMGTEC have aquired over the years.
<<<well, one of the reasons that the Radeon performs as good as it does is because of its hyper-z, which is similar to tile base rendering. Therefore, adding tile base rendering to a radeon would not have as much of a profound impact as it would if you incorporated it onto a geforce2.>>>
If Radeon had TBR it'd be at least twice the speed it is now.
<<<So you see, I'm not doubting their ability to create the product, but their ability to bring it to the market in a timeframe that will position it in a mid to high performance place.>>>
The PowerVR engineers don't bring the chip to the market. The PowerVR engineers create the design for the product and then the 3rd largest semi-conducter company in the world (STM) get the licence for the design and make the chips and sell them to companies like Hercules. Why would you doubt that a company thats much bigger then Nvidia can't bring out a chip on time?
<<<Well, I didn't say ATI buy ST, I said ATI buy Kyro, the product from ST. But that aside I have to admit I had no idea ST was that big. But the fact that they are makes this situation even more frustrating: if they've got that much market clout why aren't they throwing it behind the Kyro to integrate TBR with a T&L engine, higher clock speeds and faster memory bandwidth? It seems with all those elements properly integrated they would blow NVIDIA out of the water. So it looks as if they're just toying around with graphics, sort of like Xerox was toying around with graphical interfaces... Is ST going to be the company to bring TBR all the way to market or will there need to another "Apple", (like ATI?) come along and make real us of it?>>>
Firstly STM don't own Kyro so they couldn't sell it if they wanted too, Imagination Technologies (a British company) designed and still own Kyro they simply licence that product to STM. Imagination Tech would never actaully sell Kyro or any other TBR product because any company buying it would want the patents for TBR too and there's not a chance they'll sell that. STM are putting there money behind all that stuff you mentioned. They didn't want to include HW T&L into Kyro II, they seem to be making an entire product line as quickly as possible, first Kyro 1 then soon after Kyro II and before the end of the year Kyro III a card that will be about 200% faster then Kyro II and will include allot more then extra fillrate and mem bandwidth, it will also include HW T&L and some stuff that you'll all just have to wait and see