nvidia=evil

[k0w]

As im sure its been stated before, yet some people need reminders.

Think about this for a minute.
-If it were not for Nvidia, where would we be today?
You have to remember that, Nvidia is a driving force in the graphics industry,
and if it werent for them, bustin' out a new card every six months or so,
ATI and whoever else would virtually have no competition.

So what, you say ? ... If there is no competition, why would they bother to
keep making new cards to be ahead of the rest ? - They wouldn't.
For anyone who is smart enough to realize that without Nvidia,
we'd still be back in the ice age. We need Nvidia to pressure other manufacturers,
so that new, more evolved, cards come onto the market; be it ATI or whatever.
Who do you think pressures ATI to produce these fantastic new cards?
YOU ? as a consumer ? ya... RIGHT ....

Yes, i dont agree with Nvidia cutting off Hercules (seens how i just bought a 3D Phophet III )
but, its all necessary. For all of you, that think Nvidia should die, take a minute to think
about where you would be, and what damn games you'd be playing.

Also remember this ... When a new graphics card comes out, alot of gaming companies
will try to design a game that works well on this new card. (GeForce III = Doom 3)
So, in theory, we may not have .. Tribes 2, Black & White, Doom 3, Duke Nukem Forever ..
Why ? .. because, if Nvidia hadn't made the commitment to strive ahead in the graphics industry,
we'd all be stuck with VooDoo 3's, and a crippled ATI card.

You want, new spectacular games ? ... graphics almost zen like ?
-Then you need Nvidia to pressure your favourite company to make these new,
mind boggling cards... Its simple.

Oh yes, and as for Windows (the ever so large conglomerate company)
- (1) Yes, its large.
(2) Yes, it almost monopolizes all of the OS district.

If you hate windows so much, why not go and learn BEOS, or Linux ? ...
WHY? ... because were LAZY, and we want other people to do it for us.
We all want an interface that we an access when were ripped out of our minds.
For anyone who gets drunk, or epped often, you know what i mean.
Windows may be a monopoly, but they do work hard to build it.
(*cough* even thought Windows ME has about as much skill as a dried dog turd)

So, in closing, i hope you all realize just what your bashing.
Think about the alternatives, if Windows, and Nvidia had never existed...

Enjoy,
-k0w

EDIT: Spell Check.

 

[powervr2]

what ???
LOL
nvidia was responsible for the evolution of homo erectus into homo sapiens?
LOL

"So what, you say ? ... If there is no competition, why would they bother to
keep making new cards to be ahead of the rest ? - They wouldn't.
For anyone who is smart enough to realize that without Nvidia,
we'd still be back in the ice age. We need Nvidia to pressure other manufacturers"

AND WE NEED OTHERS MANUFACTURERS TO PRESSURE NVIDIA

"so that new, more evolved, cards come onto the market; be it ATI or whatever.
Who do you think pressures ATI to produce these fantastic new cards?
YOU ? as a consumer ? ya... RIGHT ...."

WILL NVIDIA CONTINUES TO DELIVER A NEW PRODUCT EVERY 6 MONTH IF THERE WAS NO COMPETITION?
NOP...

what we were (at least some of us) saying all allong is that nvidia is a big bully that wants to kill (resorting to bad practices, not only with good products) all the competition to give us high prices for their's top product so we had to buy lausy geforce 2 mx type cards...


DO YOU THINK THAT IF NVIDIA WINS AND GET WHAT SHE WANTS (100% market share) NVIDIA WILL CONTINUE TO COMPETE AT THE SAME PACE ?
(COMPETING AGAINST ITSELF?) ya right...

 

[jobberd]

uh, he never said that the other companies should disappear. He was simply saying that Nvidia has done alot for the industry and will continue to do so, and to get rid of it now, or to have it never exist would definitely cripple the video card industry. Of course, you can say that about any video card company. If ATI, matrox, 3dfx, or kyro similar results would occur, but the difference is, no one goes around spouting "ATI is an evil company and must die!" or "Kyro must be given a red card!"

all this arguing started because you opened your mouth spouting off that Nvidia is evil and should not exist as a company because of its underhand tactics. Admit that you were wrong for saying so, and this will all be over. I am not saying that Nvidia has not done anything wrong, because they have, but they do not deserve to "die" for it.

 

[Axloz]

OK, without buying into this debate so much that I get chewed in the next 50 posts, I'd just like to say where my opinions of Nvidia come from.

Remember back a few years ago when the Voodoo2 was the biggest and baddest thing around, and then Nvidia brought out the TNT which was hyped up more than the voodoo2, thus becoming the new biggest and baddest thing in town?
I do.
Here in Australia, a 12mb voodoo2 was about $200(a bit more for a diamond or creative), the then-new 16mb TNT was about $300-$350 (depending on the manufacturer). Id just bought my lovely Celeron 300A and my Abit BH6 mobo and had bought an 8mb intel740 AGP card for it, as it was the cheapest agp based 3D card around. After realising that the i740 wasn't going to cut it for all my games (it didn't have Glide to run SpecOps) I realised I was going to have to go with one of the "big names" in video cards. I researched the voodoo2 and TNT for a while and the TNT was (on paper) the fastest thing out. My friend had bought one with his brand new P2 450 and was raving about it like nothing on earth. Anyway, I decided that because I already had my AGP slot taken by what was (and still is, LOL) a great 2D card that did some 3D stuff, Id buy a voodoo2, and I did. It was also $150AUD cheaper

Just after I got it and had installed it and had all the new games running (Half-life, SpecOps) me and my friend both went to a LAN party. As it turned out, my voodoo2 was MUCH better than the TNT. Not just the TNT in my friend's machine, but all the other TNTs at the LAN party! Keep in mind, I hadn't overclocked the 300A yet either. I was very surprised by this, and all the other guys with Voodoo2s also had a nice grin on their face. It seemed the hype surrounding the TNT was just based on the theoretical numbers that are always on the side of the boxes. Admittedly, the TNT drivers were better than the Voodoo2s, but if you knew how to fix it, you were fine.

From then on I never listened to the hype that surrounded any Nvidia products. As far as im concerned, they make great cards with A1 driver support, but they just dont feel as though they do what the magazine ads and promo benchmarks say they will.

Now that Im about to buy a new system, my options are the Nvidia GF2 GTS or the KYRO2. Going from my past experiences, I think ill get the Kyro2. Im not saying its better than the GF2s but Im sick of all the BS that surrounds a lot of video cards. I want to find out first-hand how the Kyro2 performs, then I will be able to decide whether I bought the right card or not. Either way, its going to run my games at good frame rates. Hell, my 12mb Voodoo2 is still running CS for me

I hope you all enjoyed my trip down memory lane . Lets hope that this new competition in the market makes buying video cards better for all of us.

 

[Archknight]

<< -If it were not for Nvidia, where would we be today? >>



I don't know how you define competitions, but there is still players in the market like ST, ATI, S3, Matrox....... each have their ups and downs. Nvidia have their parts played in the progress in this industry, but without Nvidia the industry wouldn't come to a stand still. The consumers will demand better quality games, and game developers will meet the demands and the vid card companies will try to meet the demand also. And who knows, 3dfx might not go belly without Nvidia, almost infinite possibility can take place, no one can make that claim.



<< we'd still be back in the ice age. >>



Oh! the ice age.....really, in the eye of an Nvidiot anything other than Nvidia is nothing.

<<For all of you, that think Nvidia should die, take a minute to think
about where you would be, and what damn games you'd be playing>>

First of all I don't think Nvidia should die. I think we will still playing Serious Sam, tribes 2 or Giants, haven't you realise that these games can play at a V3.

<<(GeForce III = Doom 3)So, in theory, we may not have .. Tribes 2, Black &amp; White, Doom 3, Duke Nukem Forever ..Why ? .. because, if Nvidia hadn't made the commitment to strive ahead in the graphics industry,we'd all be stuck with VooDoo 3's, and a crippled ATI card.>>


You mean DX8 = Doom3, GF3 mearly the first card that support this features. Stuck with V3, ha, the V5 was in planning long before the GF1 is out.

<<If you hate windows so much, why not go and learn BEOS, or Linux ? ...
WHY? ... because were LAZY, and we want other people to do it for us.
We all want an interface that we an access when were ripped out of our minds.For anyone who gets drunk, or epped often, you know what i mean.>>

You meant yourselves right, LAZY that's why you fell deep in love with Nvidia(as your logics stated). What kind of interface Nvidia or Windows offered that ripped your minds out, I wonder! For the alcohol I can understand. Who said anything about hating Windows, and other people do what you want at windows but you have to do it yourselves on BeOS or Linux. No you don't need windows, you need to hire a tech to play your games for you.

<<So, in closing, i hope you all realize just what your bashing.
Think about the alternatives, if Windows, and Nvidia had never existed...>>

With the exception of PowerVR2's few overkills I don't see anybody else bashing Nvidia for what they are not. If Nvidia and Windows does not exist I am sure somebody will filled that space, after all who don't want to make money. In return hope you realize why you are defending Nvidia.

Axloz : Thanks for the experience.

Nvidia always worked up their paper figures.

 

[jobberd]

With the exception of PowerVR2's few overkills I don't see anybody else bashing Nvidia for what they are not
dont forget ironduke

Axloz : Thanks for the experience.
ditto

Nvidia always worked up their paper figures.
thats true, but lots of other companies did this as well, such as ATI and matrox

 

[k0w]

First off, id like to thank Jobberd for understanding my post.

Second, Powervr2 - Caps lock is overrated.

In simplicity, i was merely stating that Nvidia, (even though its large, and somewhat cut-throat, as are many other companies), have done alot for the graphics industry... nuff said. I admit that some of my ideas were wrong, yet some
were quite valid.

&quot;nvidia was responsible for the evolution of homo erectus into homo sapiens?&quot;

- I was referring to the graphics industry, not evolution.

&quot;... there is still players in the market like ST, ATI, S3, Matrox ...&quot;

- When was the last time you saw Matrox come out with a product that was widely talked about as being the best
thing to happen to graphics?

&quot;You meant yourselves right, LAZY that's why you fell deep in love with Nvidia(as your logics stated). What kind of interface Nvidia or Windows offered that ripped your minds out, I wonder!&quot;

- I never said I was lazy. I said anyone that hates Windows should take the time to learn linux, but not many do because they dont want to be bothered. I myself duel boot my systems with Linux and Windows. They each have strengths.

1. &quot;..If Nvidia and Windows does not exist I am sure somebody will filled that space..&quot;
2. &quot;..after all who don't want to make money..&quot;
3.
- English isn't one of your strengths, is it ?

&quot;..Nvidia always worked up their paper figures..&quot;

- Are you stating, for the record, that Nvidia is a pathological liar, and that we should all stereotype them as being so?

&quot;..almost infinite possibility can take place, no one can make that claim..&quot;

- I agree. Yet, according to your &quot;logic&quot;, how do you KNOW that your ideas arent false ?
Maybe 3dFX would have gone bankrupt, maybe ATI would have taken over the world, we dont know.
Therefore, you can't tell me what ARE, and what AREN'T possibilities.

&quot;..you need to hire a tech to play your games for you..&quot;

- Despite what alot of people think, Linux is quite easy to learn as long as you understand some
fundamentals of programs. Linux is nice, but it just doesn't have the playablilty of Windows.
Being that Linux doesn't support alot of games out on the market.

&quot;..he never said that the other companies should disappear. He was simply saying that Nvidia has done alot for the industry and will continue to do so, and to get rid of it now, or to have it never exist would definitely cripple the video card industry. Of course, you can say that about any video card company. If ATI, matrox, 3dfx, or kyro similar results would occur, but the difference is, no one goes around spouting &quot;ATI is an evil company and must die!&quot; or &quot;Kyro must be given a red card!..&quot;

- Exactly to the point, and very well said.

Thanks again Jobberd,

-k0w

EDIT: Oops !

 

[BaDNaN0TH0N]

i myself am quite pleased with nvidias 6month cycle, its kept the other companies on their toes. just means more products to chose from and it also means that the competitors have to release a card of their own.
so they dont want hercules to sell kryo cards, big deal i dont think this is an evil policy. they are just saying 'pick a side'.
and right now they have the best card on the market(true its pretty expensive). and as soon as i get enough money, im gonna get me a nice gf3.

 

[k0w]

&quot;i myself am quite pleased with nvidias 6month cycle, its kept the other companies on their toes.&quot;

- I completely agree with BaDNaN0TH0N.

-k0w

 

[BaDNaN0TH0N]

yay! someone agrees with me!
bad thing about the 6month cycle is that your vid card gets outdated in 6months. my geforce 256 sdr is old news now, and its barely 1 year old. to think i payed $150 for it. well by the end of the summer i should have raised enuf for a shiny new geforce3! or something that is dx8 optimized

 

[jbirney]

again, 6 month product cycle is bad. Why? Games take much longer to develop than 6 months. Case in point, TnL. We are just starting to see TnL come into games. TnL cards have been out for almost 2 years. Now we have a 3rd gen of TnL which is NOT compatable with the static TnL (ie programable vertix ops wont run on static TnL units). A game developer has a choice, most of them want to write code to take advantage of the Dx8 specs. But they know that only a small precent will be using these cards. So the have to decide how to code. It will take some time before we see any Dx8 games oit there, and by that time we may have 2 new versionsof GF3(-refresh and a GF4).

Don't get me wrong, progress is a good thing. But they are gonna get them self burned sooner or later..

 

[k0w]

Very good and valid point, and i agree; to a point.
However, many of us dont upgrade our video cards every six months.

-k0w

EDIT: Oops!

Also, you have to keep in mind that, games start with an idea.
Now, as for some games liking a certain card more, thats nothing new.
However, games do grow with time (ie, whilst building the game, a new card comes out
with new options, features, and it likes compressed textures, or it prefers 32bit colour).

This is relatively easily done by gaming companies. They will &quot;evolve&quot; this game
according to the demand, and the newer functionalities on the market.
So, when they release the game, there is a wide variety of cards supported.
As well as OpenGL being the universal language of video cards.
I do agree, though, that the 6 month update is a little excessive, but this is business.

Ready for work, and full of coffee,

-k0w

 

[jobberd]

and do remember, the 6-month cycle doesnt always bring in new features and such. after the tnt2 was out, the next cyle simply brought forth the tnt2 ultra/pro. after that came the geforce, which basically brought out TnL. After that came the geforce2 GTS, which was a geforce2 with many enhancements, but nothing that was new like TnL. Then after that came the geforce2 mx/pro/ultra. In a span of 2 years, the only new technology brought forth was the TnL engine. Plus, I don't find it bad that there is a 6-month cycle. Even if they incorporate new technologies for each card that comes out, that simply gives game developers the choice to put that into their game. By the time the game has come out, the technology will most likely already be a standard (case in point, TnL). But I do agree with the static TnL bit

 

[Mingon]

<< my geforce 256 sdr is old news now, and its barely 1 year old >>



dont you mean 2 years? i bought my gts 1 year ago and got my geforce ddr 7 months before that. my how time flies, I have had my elsa gts ultra for about 7 months now and hopefully it will last another 6-12

 

[memphist0]

First I don't like nVidia either but I bought a GF3, if you have the funds nothing compares to it right now.

The problem I have with the 6 month cycle is their cards seem to be rushed. An example the GF2 is/was a great video card but as everyone here I'm sure has seen/heard that it had some flaws that a little bit more testing could have solved. I'm talking about the 2D problems many seemed to have, the horrible image quality with texture compression and some driver compatibility problems(which they did fix). By rushing their own cards to market it makes other companies like 3dfx and ATi look bad when they take the time to smooth out the wrinkles.

An example the V5 beat the GTS and Radeon in compatibility and image quality, bugs fixed, but was crucified by all reviewers for not being out 6 months earlier.

Another thing is ATi, STM and 3dfx attempt(ed) to innovate somewhat, Hyper-Z/ TBR/ T-buffer(fsaa) and all I see nVidia do is meet specs for the newest API, but they do make it run faster than anyone else.

In nVidia's defense they seem to be slowing the product cycle slightly to fix some problems with their cards. They could have released the A3 revision of the GF3 and risked that only a small percentage of buyers would have stability problems, but they didn't the A5 came out and current GF3 owners got a nice little overclocking boost. Also, the image quality seems greatly improved with the GF3 over the GF2s not just in DX8 games/benches but even last year's games.

I would like to see a KyroIII and hope they succeed in the gamers market but I hardly think that the holy savior of video cards. Its also interesting to see how now that nVidia isn't the underdog how the perception of them has changed. What will happen if AMD becomes huge and starts doing the same thing Intel?

 

[BaDNaN0TH0N]

<<

<< my geforce 256 sdr is old news now, and its barely 1 year old >>



dont you mean 2 years? i bought my gts 1 year ago and got my geforce ddr 7 months before that. my how time flies, I have had my elsa gts ultra for about 7 months now and hopefully it will last another 6-12 >>



well i bought my sdr a year ago, i like to buy vid cards when they bellow $200. (or i try to atleast) right now im in no rush, my sdr performs great i get 60+fps in all the games i play with 1024x768 res. sure theres no fsaa but it dont matter, as long as it runs nice and smooth and looks purty its all good

 

[Archknight]

Oh! yes I forgot ironduke.

<<Nvidia always worked up their paper figures.
thats true, but lots of other companies did this as well, such as ATI and matrox>>

I think I should stated that more clearly - Nvidia's theoritical fillrates is what I am talking about and Nvidia is the one that hype the most about this. Yes ATI and the others do it too, just not as great as Nvidia.

<<&quot;... there is still players in the market like ST, ATI, S3, Matrox ...&quot;

- When was the last time you saw Matrox come out with a product that was widely talked about as being the best
thing to happen to graphics?>>

The graphic industry is more than just gaming right, the matrox is still being praise for thier 2D and dualhead. Matrox is staying away from gaming market, the G550 is not a really new card, but maybe someone will like the new headcasting technology, who knows. S3 have their small share in the mobile market, someone had a thread in here about the good 2D quality of the Trident.

And I apologize about the part that said you were LAZY, it is I who misunderstanded the message in the first place, I am sorry.

Yes, english is not my strength.

 

[jbirney]

<< Now, as for some games liking a certain card more, thats nothing new.
However, games do grow with time (ie, whilst building the game, a new card comes out
with new options, features, and it likes compressed textures, or it prefers 32bit colour).
>>




Not always true. To get any benifits from TnL for example, that has to be coding into the engine very very early on. At some point they have to freeze the design of the engine and this will fix the card requirements for the most part. Agreed its now up to the mappers to fix the size of the maps, number of polys, textures, ect that will aslo effect the cards prefromance. But you can not take code that you have been working on and make changes to it an expect it to run well. Take DX8 and TnL. In order to get the proper benefits, you have to re-write your hole 3d engine and that is not an easy task.




<< . By the time the game has come out, the technology will most likely already be a standard (case in point, TnL). But I do agree with the static TnL bit >>



No, my point is if it take 18 month on average for a game to go from start to finnish, but video cards are running on a 6 month features increase. Then a new or better version of a feature may come out that will render the previous version obsolete. Again take TnL. Static TnL is just one case were a feature came out, and before it was really used, a new and better version, programable TnL, came out to make static TnL obsolete. No one wants to do Static TnL. But there is now a HUGE install base of Static TnL cards out there. So game developers are gonna to have to make some adjustments to handle all of the static TnL units.

Plus there are many features that come on cards that get seledom used and thus dont become standards..like 3DFX T-buffer stuff (yea FSAA is a T-buffer effect, but I was talking about motion blurr, Soft Shadows DOF, ect)


Like I said, moving forward is a good thing. Moving too fast or faster than the consumer needs is not a good thing. And no I don't upgrade with every new release..once a year for me...