nVidia GT200 Series Review Thread

[Munky]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
they should just put a "+" after each card to designate that it is now 55nm; we could have 8800gt+, 9600gt+, eventually even gtx 280 ultra +.

Or, they could just add a "+" to their existing products, while changing nothing, and hope the new name confuses enough people to increase sales.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
they should just put a "+" after each card to designate that it is now 55nm; we could have 8800gt+, 9600gt+, eventually even gtx 280 ultra +.

Or, they could just add a "+" to their existing products, while changing nothing, and hope the new name confuses enough people to increase sales.

Seems to be a good enough strategy that AMD has already adopted it with an upcoming 4850+ part. Wonder why they chose to mimic NV when they already have a great mechanism in place, like 4855.15 or 4892.6......honestly I don't know why people bother to focus on naming conventions, its been proven time and time again that both sides are equally capable of producing confusing/ridiculous naming schemes.

But ya right now I'd have to agree the 260 is kinda dead in the water before it even got launched. I'd also expect 280 prices to drop into the $550-600 range with MIR taking it down a bit more.

 

[bryanW1995]

well, I think that we can all agree that nvidia really has no choice but to drop the gtx 260 to $299 unless stock levels are VERY low. the gtx 280, however, has a significant advantage as they can use it to exert strong influence over the market until 4870x2 arrives. As the undisputed high-end champ, they can keep it at $550-$599 until that day arrives, and there's no guarantee that it will actually launch as planned. gddr5 availability is critical for everybody right now. if nvidia were smart they'd "announce" a gddr5 version of gt200 at 256 bit now and buy up every bit of gddr5 on the market. That would put amd back for a while and allow to nvidia to continue to collect relatively high margins on gtx 280 at least.

 

[taltamir]

I was actually thinking the same thing... nVidia could annouce their intent to use GDDR5 and buy all of it...

In the short run, it will cripple AMDs stock.
In the long run, it will make GDDR5 cheap and plentiful as everyone will quickly migrate to producing it (since it is "the future" and used by the only two graphics makers).
Which is better for AMD since their new chip is GDDR5 compatible (i dont know if the G200 is) AND it also requires it for the necessary bandwidth. The G200 on the other hand uses the 512bit bus for the bandwidth, and while GDDR5 will further increase it, such an increase is not yet needed, so it will not exhibit a performance increase (or a justifiable one) from that.

So in the long term, it makes more sense not to do so.

 

[woolfe9999]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
if nvidia were smart they'd "announce" a gddr5 version of gt200 at 256 bit now and buy up every bit of gddr5 on the market. That would put amd back for a while and allow to nvidia to continue to collect relatively high margins on gtx 280 at least.

And if AMD has half a brain, they have contracts with the memory manufacturers which guaranty their place in line for x amount of GDDR5, as it becomes available. And if they don't have such contracts, they deserve whatever they get.

- woolfe

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
they should just put a "+" after each card to designate that it is now 55nm; we could have 8800gt+, 9600gt+, eventually even gtx 280 ultra +.

Or, they could just add a "+" to their existing products, while changing nothing, and hope the new name confuses enough people to increase sales.

Ok Munky. What would you have named the 55nm 9800GTX to less confuse consumers?
According to you, nothing has changed. In other words, the card is still 65nm, same clocks, same temps, same power consumption. Right? Or aren't all those things still the same?

 

[ChronoReverse]

The GTX+ is supposed to 55nm

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: ChronoReverse
The GTX+ is supposed to 55nm

That is correct. I just wanted to pick Munky's brain for a better name, since he thinks the + will confuse consumers.

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
they should just put a "+" after each card to designate that it is now 55nm; we could have 8800gt+, 9600gt+, eventually even gtx 280 ultra +.

Or, they could just add a "+" to their existing products, while changing nothing, and hope the new name confuses enough people to increase sales.

Ok Munky. What would you have named the 55nm 9800GTX to less confuse consumers?
According to you, nothing has changed. In other words, the card is still 65nm, same clocks, same temps, same power consumption. Right? Or aren't all those things still the same?

I don't think he was refering to the 9800GTX+, he was joking about how bad nVidia's naming has gotten and how it can confuse customers (such as 8800GTX outperforming 9800GTX). 9800GTX+ is sort of stupid IMO, but it accurately describes the product as it is basically an overclocked 9800GTX.

The 9800GTX+ isn't really impressive IMO, it doesn't seem like 55nm has done much at all for nVidia. The power consumption @ same clocks is pretty much identical between G92 and G92b. The 9800GTX+ consumes much more power than the 9800GTX despite being on a 55nm process. Granted performance has improved, but nVidia is not getting any better performance/watt here.

nVidia's biggest problem is going to be the GTX 260 though, for now at least. The 9800GTX+ can stand against the HD 4850 pretty well, it just needs slightly lower prices (9800GTX+ should be $199, 9800GTX should be $179 or so). The GTX 260 is going to be outperformed (sometimes) or at least equalled by the HD 4870, while it will cost $100 more and it is not possible for nVidia to lower prices to the $299 level. Not if they intend to make a profit at least. The GTX 280 is going to be in a bit of trouble when the 4870 X2 comes, but for now it will be fine as long as the price is brought down a bit.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
they should just put a "+" after each card to designate that it is now 55nm; we could have 8800gt+, 9600gt+, eventually even gtx 280 ultra +.

Or, they could just add a "+" to their existing products, while changing nothing, and hope the new name confuses enough people to increase sales.

Ok Munky. What would you have named the 55nm 9800GTX to less confuse consumers?
According to you, nothing has changed. In other words, the card is still 65nm, same clocks, same temps, same power consumption. Right? Or aren't all those things still the same?

I guess the sarcasm of my post wasn't that obvious...

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: woolfe9999

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
if nvidia were smart they'd "announce" a gddr5 version of gt200 at 256 bit now and buy up every bit of gddr5 on the market. That would put amd back for a while and allow to nvidia to continue to collect relatively high margins on gtx 280 at least.

And if AMD has half a brain, they have contracts with the memory manufacturers which guaranty their place in line for x amount of GDDR5, as it becomes available. And if they don't have such contracts, they deserve whatever they get.

- woolfe

ever heard of hector "the genius" ruiz? he probably worked it all out on a handshake, just like tom cruise in jerry mcguire.

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
they should just put a "+" after each card to designate that it is now 55nm; we could have 8800gt+, 9600gt+, eventually even gtx 280 ultra +.

Or, they could just add a "+" to their existing products, while changing nothing, and hope the new name confuses enough people to increase sales.

Ok Munky. What would you have named the 55nm 9800GTX to less confuse consumers?
According to you, nothing has changed. In other words, the card is still 65nm, same clocks, same temps, same power consumption. Right? Or aren't all those things still the same?

I don't think he was refering to the 9800GTX+, he was joking about how bad nVidia's naming has gotten and how it can confuse customers (such as 8800GTX outperforming 9800GTX). 9800GTX+ is sort of stupid IMO, but it accurately describes the product as it is basically an overclocked 9800GTX.

The 9800GTX+ isn't really impressive IMO, it doesn't seem like 55nm has done much at all for nVidia. The power consumption @ same clocks is pretty much identical between G92 and G92b. The 9800GTX+ consumes much more power than the 9800GTX despite being on a 55nm process. Granted performance has improved, but nVidia is not getting any better performance/watt here.

nVidia's biggest problem is going to be the GTX 260 though, for now at least. The 9800GTX+ can stand against the HD 4850 pretty well, it just needs slightly lower prices (9800GTX+ should be $199, 9800GTX should be $179 or so). The GTX 260 is going to be outperformed (sometimes) or at least equalled by the HD 4870, while it will cost $100 more and it is not possible for nVidia to lower prices to the $299 level. Not if they intend to make a profit at least. The GTX 280 is going to be in a bit of trouble when the 4870 X2 comes, but for now it will be fine as long as the price is brought down a bit.

I really thought that 9900gtx would have made more sense. It's a performance bump, but more importantly it's a completely new die. They could sell that since it IS more efficient than a comparably clocked 9800gtx and should theoretically oc a little bit higher, too. It would certainly have made more sense than throwing mathematical equations at us, and it would also have made a LOT more sense than 640>320 but <512.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
they should just put a "+" after each card to designate that it is now 55nm; we could have 8800gt+, 9600gt+, eventually even gtx 280 ultra +.

Or, they could just add a "+" to their existing products, while changing nothing, and hope the new name confuses enough people to increase sales.

Ok Munky. What would you have named the 55nm 9800GTX to less confuse consumers?
According to you, nothing has changed. In other words, the card is still 65nm, same clocks, same temps, same power consumption. Right? Or aren't all those things still the same?

I guess the sarcasm of my post wasn't that obvious...

Sorry bud. I detected no sarcasm on that one. It's high time I took my detector in for calibration!

 

[lopri]

From our boss..

Originally posted by: Anand Lal Shrimp

Originally posted by: ashegam

When can we expect 55nm 200 models?

NVIDIA probably started working on the 55nm shrink of GT200 as soon as the chip was done, so you can expect a die-shrunk version of it as soon as 6 months but I'd expect one in early 2009.

Discuss.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: lopri
From our boss..

Originally posted by: Anand Lal Shrimp

Originally posted by: ashegam

When can we expect 55nm 200 models?

NVIDIA probably started working on the 55nm shrink of GT200 as soon as the chip was done, so you can expect a die-shrunk version of it as soon as 6 months but I'd expect one in early 2009.

Discuss.

I'd be surprised if Nvidia didn't introduce a 55nm g200 in the Nov - Dec 2008 timeframe. They can't afford to milk the 65nm g200 for long, not with the pressure Ati is bringing this round. Sort of reminds me of how AMD was underestimating Intel before the Core2 launch.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
they should just put a "+" after each card to designate that it is now 55nm; we could have 8800gt+, 9600gt+, eventually even gtx 280 ultra +.

Or, they could just add a "+" to their existing products, while changing nothing, and hope the new name confuses enough people to increase sales.

Ok Munky. What would you have named the 55nm 9800GTX to less confuse consumers?
According to you, nothing has changed. In other words, the card is still 65nm, same clocks, same temps, same power consumption. Right? Or aren't all those things still the same?

I don't think he was refering to the 9800GTX+, he was joking about how bad nVidia's naming has gotten and how it can confuse customers (such as 8800GTX outperforming 9800GTX). 9800GTX+ is sort of stupid IMO, but it accurately describes the product as it is basically an overclocked 9800GTX.

The 9800GTX+ isn't really impressive IMO, it doesn't seem like 55nm has done much at all for nVidia. The power consumption @ same clocks is pretty much identical between G92 and G92b. The 9800GTX+ consumes much more power than the 9800GTX despite being on a 55nm process. Granted performance has improved, but nVidia is not getting any better performance/watt here.

nVidia's biggest problem is going to be the GTX 260 though, for now at least. The 9800GTX+ can stand against the HD 4850 pretty well, it just needs slightly lower prices (9800GTX+ should be $199, 9800GTX should be $179 or so). The GTX 260 is going to be outperformed (sometimes) or at least equalled by the HD 4870, while it will cost $100 more and it is not possible for nVidia to lower prices to the $299 level. Not if they intend to make a profit at least. The GTX 280 is going to be in a bit of trouble when the 4870 X2 comes, but for now it will be fine as long as the price is brought down a bit.

You seem to be confusing a few basic tenets of mathematics here... so let me help.
You make the following statements:
1. Performance improved.
2. Power consumption stayed the same.
3. Performance per watt stayed the same.

These are contradictory due to simple laws of math. If A increases and B stays the same then A/B increases, it does not stay the same.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: munky
I'd be surprised if Nvidia didn't introduce a 55nm g200 in the Nov - Dec 2008 timeframe. They can't afford to milk the 65nm g200 for long, not with the pressure Ati is bringing this round. Sort of reminds me of how AMD was underestimating Intel before the Core2 launch.

IMO I think G200 was taped out long time ago, since we are actually seeing them in plentiful numbers, even in where i live. I suspect that they were probably working on getting acceptable yields since due to the large monolithic nature of G200 probably had bad initial yields, hence releasing this 1.7months after G80.

That being said, an optical die shrink should take up to no less then 3 months? no? Unless nVIDIA wants to change something regarding their current G200 architecture, an optical shrink requires nothing but getting the same 65nm chip (in its same layout) to 55nm without anything being touched.

So i agree with munky that we will see 55nm versions of G200s rather soon. Straight from the horse's mouth, they've said G92b being around for 9~12months but seeing as how HD4800 series perform, i think 55nm G92b will not be enough. Hopefully this will start up the cylinders in the nVIDIA engine so that they can start trickling down G200 derivatives for the mid range instead of shoving down the rehashed G92 @ 55nm.

 

[JPB]

Why I hate Abit and Nvidia.

Not my article.

 

[BFG10K]

Re: GT200 @ 55 nm

One of the rumor sites was saying a while ago it?s taped out already and we should see it in September.

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Re: GT200 @ 55 nm

One of the rumor sites was saying a while ago it?s taped out already and we should see it in September.

It would be really awesome if it came by mid-September, then I could step-up to it (but I'm sure that even if it does come in September, nVidia will make sure it is more than 90 days after the GTX 280 launch).

I would think nVidia would have something to respond to R700.... from what I see it is going to win by a clear margin most of the time. Even if it is something like 8800GTX -> 8800 Ultra, I would think we will see something by nVidia to counter AMD's launch.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Re: GT200 @ 55 nm

One of the rumor sites was saying a while ago it?s taped out already and we should see it in September.

It would be really awesome if it came by mid-September, then I could step-up to it (but I'm sure that even if it does come in September, nVidia will make sure it is more than 90 days after the GTX 280 launch).

I would think nVidia would have something to respond to R700.... from what I see it is going to win by a clear margin most of the time. Even if it is something like 8800GTX -> 8800 Ultra, I would think we will see something by nVidia to counter AMD's launch.

Even if EVGA is one of NV's biggest/most successful partners, they clearly don't have that much influence on NV's launch schedule. Case in point with 9800GX2 and GTX280. The EVGA step-up thread is absolutely flooded with step-up requests from GX2 owners. If EVGA did have any influence they would've tried to hold launch for another 2-3 weeks.

I think the 55nm GT200 will be the response to R700, from the benches I saw, 4870 CF suffered from poor scaling or capping/bottlenecking that put it around the same level as the GTX 280 and 4850 CF and pretty much every other multi-GPU solution out there. In cases it did show significant scaling, FPS for GTX 280 and 4870 CF were so high they were largely irrelevant.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: lopri
From our boss..

Originally posted by: Anand Lal Shrimp

Originally posted by: ashegam

When can we expect 55nm 200 models?

NVIDIA probably started working on the 55nm shrink of GT200 as soon as the chip was done, so you can expect a die-shrunk version of it as soon as 6 months but I'd expect one in early 2009.

Discuss.

Sounds about right. 6 months from now they introduce a die shrink with higher clocks, maybe even possibly an X2 version.

 

[djcool976]

I started my step-up for a GTX 280 but now I'm wondering if my PSU will do the trick. My current setup is in my signature. Think I'll be ok?

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: djcool976
I started my step-up for a GTX 280 but now I'm wondering if my PSU will do the trick. My current setup is in my signature. Think I'll be ok?

yes, an hx 620 has 51a on a single 12v rail and will be more than sufficient to power that rig.

 

[djcool976]

Awesome, "ONLY" 411 in queue now!!!