NVIDIA Pascal Thread

[steve wilson]

Are Nvidia really that bad or are there a lot of AMD fanboys here? Genuinly curious, not trolling.

 

[antihelten]

Nv strikes again with dirty tricks

We should probably allow Nvidia to actually launch the cards, before we start accusing them of dirty tricks. Right now this is all just speculation based upon rumors.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Are Nvidia really that bad or are there a lot of AMD fanboys here? Genuinly curious, not trolling.

Forum is 2/3rds AMD. 1/3rd Nvidia.

 

[Aristotelian]

Forum is 2/3rds AMD. 1/3rd Nvidia.

There are plenty of posters - like me - that do not subscribe to either camp. In my current ongoing ultimate watercooling build, based around the 10 core Broadwell-E, I'll be buying two flagship cards - two of the fastest cards at that time (june time) which will likely be Nvidia. But in my current rig, which I plan to use as a farming rig going forward, I'll be selling two 580s and likely getting AMD cards for their dominance in currency mining. I'm just one example, of numbers on this forum that simply want to pay for the best experience they can get, and do not spend time defending one camp over the other.

 

[Timmah!]

I get ~321mm²...

Edit - It looks like the shots are lined up with the white lines around the outside of each die.

Good work, even if it turns out to be slightly off eventually.

 

[IEC]

Forum is 2/3rds AMD. 1/3rd Nvidia.

The majority of this forum doesn't consider themselves to belong to either camp. Of course, that doesn't mesh with the persecution complex, but why let facts get in the way of a silly, juvenile argument.

Honestly, the forum would be better off without the "promoters" and the "doom and gloomers" on both sides. It's rather embarrassing for a tech forum to continue to allow persistent partisans to post blatantly biased, almost comically propagandist content. There is no reason why there can't be reasoned (and yet, robust) discussion about technology, upcoming technology, and the pros and cons about presently available consumer products without all the usual suspects derailing threads.

 

[Head1985]

I only care not being rip off.I dont care if its AMD or NV.So far GTX1070 looks like rip off.

 

[RussianSensation]

Shot are in line with cooler mounting holes, which can change from generation to generation. Explains the difference in white lines and why it doesn't match.
It is pretty big chip ^^

Even if it's 350mm2, that's still mid-range Pascal since GP100 is 610mm2. Secondly, HBM2 Pascal = flagship. What does that make 256-bit 10-12Gbps GDDR5X chip? Mid-range.

What's happening is AMD/NV don't want to call them mid-range anymore. So now they relabeled these market segments as Performance/High-End and relabeled High-End as Enthusiast. It's hilarious and brilliant!

Using their marketing logic today, HD5870 (GP104 1080) would be a $550-650 MSRP card at launch when GTX285 is the a 980Ti lineage card.

$379 5870 = 334mm2

1920x1080 4AA = 26% faster than 285, 47% over 4890
1920x1080 8AA = 45% faster (!) than 285, 43% over 4890
2560x1600 4AA = 35% faster than 285, 50% (!) over 4890

At 1920x1080 4AA and 2560x1600 4AA, 5870 was only 8% slower than 4870X2!

http://www.computerbase.de/2009-09/test-ati-radeon-hd-5870/23/#abschnitt_performancerating_qualitaet

5870 was not even as good as the $350 GTX470 OC to 750-800mhz once next gen games arrived.

Fast forward, we are discussing $550-650 pricing for a 321-332mm2 256-bit 1080. Oh I forgot, as long as it beats 980Ti by 20-25%, it's now High-End and $550-650 price is still warranted since it improves price/perf over 980Ti.

Here is the difference too.

$649 MSRP 280, but over the course of a generation, NV lowered prices as nodes matured and costs dropped. Once faster cards came out, 280 dropped to $350-400.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2711

Now, NV doesn't pass on those cost savings to consumers. They keep prices near MSRP for 970/980/980Ti and Titan X for the duration of a generation. As a result, their gross margins ballooned to 55-56%. How more obvious can it be?

This is why even when new cards launch, they can be priced high since old tech no longer drops in price commensurate with manufacturing cost savings and the time vs. technology performance curve. This is the Intel/Apple playbook. AMD is doing the same thing now with 390/390X and Fiji (exception is the Nano). Usually, as cutting edge technology goes through its life-cycle, it starts off high and prices drop over the life-cycle.

Most of the blame on why this happened is with the consumers. Consumers allowed for this to happen. Less people are buying sub-$150 cards, the market for sub-$100 cards is dead, while more gamers are gravitating towards i7 + $300-650 GPU. Now, not a chance AMD and NV will stop with new strategies unless we stop buying upper mid-range cards priced at $500-600. At this point, why not raise 1080's price to $599-649, after all it will beat 980Ti in all key metrics so it's justified?

If most of the market boycotted and waited for Vega/Big Pascal, then maybe some changes could happen in the future. Luckily for NV/AMD, there are now millions of new 16-25 year old gamers, especially many who are new to PCs, who don't know much about GPU history before 2011 or so.

 

[Kris194]

Everyone here should say thanks to all those people (idiots) that buy GPU for 650$ or even more... I would have to be dumb or mentally disabled to pay more than 500$ for any computer part.

 

[Aristotelian]

Everyone here should say thanks to all those people (idiots) that buy GPU for 650$ or even more... I would have to be dumb or mentally disabled to pay more than 500$ for any computer part.

I'm getting really tired of seeing posts like these. Do you go to sewing forums and tell people who spend EUR 3000 and more on a quilt machine say from Bernina or Pfaff that they are stupid because you sew by hand? Being on an enthusiast forum and complaining how people spend their money is counterproductive and offensive.

I'd pay EUR 1000 per Pascal Titan X right now if I could get them - if I could get HDR at 4k and 100Hz plus on an OLED screen and I might even buy the Dell OLED when it comes out.

 

[Genx87]

I dont really understand posts like that neither. Why does anybody care enough to pass judgement on people who buy expensive things?

 

[railven]

The majority of this forum doesn't consider themselves to belong to either camp.

The majority of the forum also don't post in this sub-section. When this sub-section was polled, surprising to some, but not all, the tally favored AMD.

My history posting here started because I felt it had a pro-Radeon (at the time ATI) vibe. Unlike, say, HardOCP which feels to swing widely the other way.

Everyone here should say thanks to all those people (idiots) that buy GPU for 650$ or even more... I would have to be dumb or mentally disabled to pay more than 500$ for any computer part.

You're welcome

I hope my buying habits screw you some more

 

[exar333]

I don't care how big the die is. I don't really care if it is labeled 'mid-range' 'high-end' or 'enthusiast'.

What I do care about is the performance and the price. Based on those, I select the GPU that I want, within the power requirements I have.

 

[MrTeal]

I'm getting really tired of seeing posts like these. Do you go to sewing forums and tell people who spend EUR 3000 and more on a quilt machine say from Bernina or Pfaff that they are stupid because you sew by hand? Being on an enthusiast forum and complaining how people spend their money is counterproductive and offensive.

I'd pay EUR 1000 per Pascal Titan X right now if I could get them - if I could get HDR at 4k and 100Hz plus on an OLED screen and I might even buy the Dell OLED when it comes out.

And it's really quite silly, considering that performance really does scale quite well in GPUs. Look at a TPU graph for Perf/$, and every tested GPU fits nicely in a 3x or so range. That is incredibly consistent. If you take a look at pretty much any other hobby, there's the opportunity to spend orders of magnitude more money on something "elite" that's of questionable performance benefit.

I spend more than the $500 listed here on a what's still a reasonably priced set of golf clubs, and I use those twice a year in a good year. My GPU runs essentially 8760 hours a year.

 

[RussianSensation]

I dont really understand posts like that neither. Why does anybody care enough to pass judgement on people who buy expensive things?

That's not at all what's being discussed in detail. No one is asking for the 911 to cost as much as a Cayman. It's when you price a Cayman at 911 prices that's the issue.

If GP100/102 came out at $649 in June, I wouldn't have a problem with it. How much would it be reasonable to price cards like 1070/1080 then?

Again, I totally get it that some people are OK paying 1000 Euro for a Titan X, what's that have to do with the price of mid-range parts? Porsche sold the 918 for close to a million so that means 911 can go up to $400-500K?

It would be one thing if prices on the enthusiast cards went up as it's logical that people will pay. It's another thing when every single tier is increasing in price by 50-100%.

960 was literally the worst x60 series card in the last 5 generations. Such a turd would never sell in the past for $200. Yet, now because mid-range and upper-mid-range cards like 970/390/390X/980 are $330-450, a $200 960/380 2GB level turd is "good value".

Also, instead of simply stating that "Don't tell me how I should spend my money", maybe try to come up with a good counter-argument. Otherwise, you are basically stating that "I don't care, I'll pay $500-650 for next gen mid-range cards." Ok, no problem, but at least you would admit it. Many people on this forum don't even want to admit the truth, just defend the price increases.

Like I said, price inelastic R9 295X2, Radeon Pro Duo, Titan X buyers don't count. Those buyers have 0 to do with 98% of the GPU market.

Making the argument that the top tier cards never scale linearly in value is also not in contention. That's not what's being discussed either. I don't care if Radeon Pro Duo or Pascal Titan X are $1000-1500 cards. Make them $2000-2500, whatever. Using that argument, why keep 980Ti's successor at $649, raise that to $799-899. See how that works?

 

[Aristotelian]

That's not at all what's being discussed in detail. No one is asking for the 911 to cost as much as a Cayman. It's when you price a Cayman at 911 prices that's the issue.

If GP100/102 came out at $649 in June, I wouldn't have a problem with it. How much would it be reasonable to price cards like 1070/1080 then?

Again, I totally get it that some people are OK paying 1000 Euro for a Titan X, what's that have to do with the price of mid-range parts? Porsche sold the 918 for close to a million so that means 911 can go up to $400-500K?

It would be one thing if prices on the enthusiast cards went up as it's logical that people will pay. It's another thing when every single tier is increasing in price by 50-100%.

960 was literally the worst x60 series card in the last 5 generations. Such a turd would never sell in the past for $200. Yet, now because mid-range and upper-mid-range cards like 970/390/390X/980 are $330-450, a $200 960/380 2GB level turd is "good value".

Also, instead of simply stating that "Don't tell me how I should spend my money", maybe try to come up with a good counter-argument. Otherwise, you are basically stating that "I don't care, I'll pay $500-650 for next gen mid-range cards." Ok, no problem, but at least you would admit it. Many people on this forum don't even want to admit the truth, just defend the price increases.

Like I said, price inelastic R9 295X2, Radeon Pro Duo, Titan X buyers don't count. Those buyers have 0 to do with 98% of the GPU market.

I get your point, but the post that I quoted clearly contained a blanket statement - he stated that he would have to be mentally impaired to spend USD 500 or more on ANY computer part - so what other counter-argument should we put forward?

In fact, my post (which I think you're also referring to) was phrased deliberately because I'd pay that amount of money for a Pascal Titan X but I'm getting rather concerned that Nvidia is going to release mid range Pascal at really high prices - and there price is not inelastic for me because what I said is I'm happy to spend premium amounts of money on a premium product, not mid-range. This is why I asked about potential 1080Ti release at the same time as these 970 and 980 replacements.

It's hard to counter an "argument" like the one in the post I quoted because that post contained a blanket, insulting statement and not a reasoned argument like yours which basically says that we should not be getting milked by Nvidia on mid range products - and there I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[maddie]

I'm getting really tired of seeing posts like these. Do you go to sewing forums and tell people who spend EUR 3000 and more on a quilt machine say from Bernina or Pfaff that they are stupid because you sew by hand? Being on an enthusiast forum and complaining how people spend their money is counterproductive and offensive.

I'd pay EUR 1000 per Pascal Titan X right now if I could get them - if I could get HDR at 4k and 100Hz plus on an OLED screen and I might even buy the Dell OLED when it comes out.

I dont really understand posts like that neither. Why does anybody care enough to pass judgement on people who buy expensive things?

Agreed, once you both also condemn the opposite. High-end hardware buyers belittling low-end purchasers. It happens quite often here.

 

[Erenhardt]

Even if it's 350mm2, that's still mid-range Pascal since GP100 is 610mm2. Secondly, HBM2 Pascal = flagship. What does that make 256-bit 10-12Gbps GDDR5X chip? Mid-range.

It is better than the 294mm sq. I agree we should be getting 500+ for the top end, but that seems to be wishful thinking.

 

[parkerface]

Agreed, once you both also condemn the opposite. High-end hardware buyers belittling low-end purchasers. It happens quite often here.

That's the thing about letting everyone having an opinion--everyone has their opinion.

 

[exar333]

That's not at all what's being discussed in detail. No one is asking for the 911 to cost as much as a Cayman. It's when you price a Cayman at 911 prices that's the issue.

If GP100/102 came out at $649 in June, I wouldn't have a problem with it. How much would it be reasonable to price cards like 1070/1080 then?

Again, I totally get it that some people are OK paying 1000 Euro for a Titan X, what's that have to do with the price of mid-range parts? Porsche sold the 918 for close to a million so that means 911 can go up to $400-500K?

It would be one thing if prices on the enthusiast cards went up as it's logical that people will pay. It's another thing when every single tier is increasing in price by 50-100%.

960 was literally the worst x60 series card in the last 5 generations. Such a turd would never sell in the past for $200. Yet, now because mid-range and upper-mid-range cards like 970/390/390X/980 are $330-450, a $200 960/380 2GB level turd is "good value".

Also, instead of simply stating that "Don't tell me how I should spend my money", maybe try to come up with a good counter-argument. Otherwise, you are basically stating that "I don't care, I'll pay $500-650 for next gen mid-range cards." Ok, no problem, but at least you would admit it. Many people on this forum don't even want to admit the truth, just defend the price increases.

Like I said, price inelastic R9 295X2, Radeon Pro Duo, Titan X buyers don't count. Those buyers have 0 to do with 98% of the GPU market.

Making the argument that the top tier cards never scale linearly in value is also not in contention. That's not what's being discussed either. I don't care if Radeon Pro Duo or Pascal Titan X are $1000-1500 cards. Make them $2000-2500, whatever. Using that argument, why keep 980Ti's successor at $649, raise that to $799-899. See how that works?

Well the 911 base turbo MSRP did increase from 111k to 151k 2001-2016.

 

[96Firebird]

I don't care how big the die is. I don't really care if it is labeled 'mid-range' 'high-end' or 'enthusiast'.

What I do care about is the performance and the price. Based on those, I select the GPU that I want, within the power requirements I have.

This is how most sane people think, and why we tend to laugh at the ones who rant and whine that they aren't getting the chip they want at the price they want.

 

[railven]

This is how most sane people think, and why we tend to laugh at the ones who rant and whine that they aren't getting the chip they want at the price they want.

I'm just amazed at the transaction above. Poster 1 essentially calls a big group of buyers idiots, Poster 2 makes a good rebuttal and RS tells Poster 2 he's not addressing Poster 1's issues, which seems to be anyone buying beyond Poster1's means are idiots.

Woof. It's like a soap opera around here.

 

[Kris194]

I dont really understand posts like that neither. Why does anybody care enough to pass judgement on people who buy expensive things?

Why? Because it affects market and me and many other people. If people won't stop buying that expensive GPU or any other computer parts just for gaming, it will lead us to the point where you will see high-end GPU for a price of used car. For example, back in 2008 I bought whole PC for something like a 1000$ and it was running everything on max settings (GTX 260 (cut GT200 chip!, not a mid-range chip), E8400, 4GB RAM) for like a 3 years except shitty GTA IV PC port. And now, only 8 years later, some people pay the same amount for the GPU only That's the thing that Russian said, till you won't stop buying that expensive cards, AMD/Nvidia won't stop raising prices.

edit

That's hilarious. People here said that the rumoured prices of Pascal GPUs are ridiculous but still, at the end of the day, they are eager to buy them. I don't get it.

 

[railven]

Why? Because it affects market and me and many other people. If people won't stop buying that expensive GPU or any other computer parts just for gaming, it will lead us to the point where you will see high-end GPU for a price of used car. For example, back in 2008 I bought whole PC for something like a 1000$ and it was running everything on max settings (GTX 260 (cut GT200 chip!, not a mid-range chip), E8400, 4GB RAM) for like a 3 years except shitty GTA IV PC port. And now, only 8 years later, some people pay the same amount for the GPU only That's the thing that Russian said, till you won't stop buying that expensive cards, AMD/Nvidia won't stop raising prices.

I don't even know how to respond. Well for starters, my brother's first used truck was like $450 in 2005, so we passed the cost of a high end GPU costing the value of a used car a long time ago (Hell, I was buying $500 GPUs back in high school in the late 90s.)

This becomes a class issue on top of other things. I worked hard in my life getting to a point where $650 for a GPU is 2-3 days work. Considering my other expenses and aspirations, it is perhaps the cheapest expense I have. I spend more in gasoline in 6 months that I do on my GPU. I spend more in taking the wife-to-be to dinner monthly.

That probably comes off as dickish, but what else can I say. I look at the guys running Quad Rigs and all I can think of "I wish I had that kind of cash to burn." And hopefully with putting more effort into my career, in 5-6 years, perhaps I can be that guy posting his issues and then links a kick ass rig with 3-4 GPUs. You know what I won't do. Condemn that person for having the opportunity to do what they want with their money. It comes off as petty.

 

[Genx87]

Why? Because it affects market and me and many other people. If people won't stop buying that expensive GPU or any other computer parts just for gaming, it will lead us to the point where you will see high-end GPU for a price of used car. For example, back in 2008 I bought whole PC for something like a 1000$ and it was running everything on max settings (GTX 260 (cut GT200 chip!, not a mid-range chip), E8400, 4GB RAM) for like a 3 years except shitty GTA IV PC port. And now, only 8 years later, some people pay the same amount for the GPU only That's the thing that Russian said, till you won't stop buying that expensive cards, AMD/Nvidia won't stop raising prices.

edit

That's hilarious. People here said that the rumoured prices of Pascal GPUs are ridiculous but still, at the end of the day, they are eager to buy them. I don't get it.

So your goal is to shame enough people that maybe demand will shrink and prices fall? Good luck with that.

If those people dont buy those high end parts with high end margins. It may be you wont get a next generation mid ranged card at all. I believe if you were to accomplish what you desire it would be called cutting off your nose to spite your face.