nVidia Q&A posted

[BFG10K]

I disagree. If somebody benchmarks the V5 *correctly* and with performance optimizations enabled, you'll find high-resolutions side-by-side with the V5.

That's what I wanted to ask you. A long time ago I saw the Kyro review you guys did and there were some really odd results you were getting. Your GF2/V5 scores were much lower than anybody elses I have seen and there were cases of the V5 scoring higher than the GF2. At that time you mentioned your scores were lower because you run at higher quality settings than everyone else.

There are some inconsitencies with your story:

(1) I have seen at least 15 independant hardware sites and not one of them ever recorded a V5 beating a GF2.
(2) Other sites use the maximum quality settings as well and were getting far higher scores than you were.

So my questions to you are:

How is it that the V5 was beating the GF2?
If the answer is "because it was tweaked" then surely doesn't that mean that your scores should be much higher than the other websites?

I'm sorry but tweaking one card and leaving the other at stock settings and then running the benchmark is not a benchmark. It's an obvious bias toward one company and the fixing of the tests. Whether or nor you can see a difference is irrelevent. You can't just start turning things on/off whenever you feel like it. It's outright deception.

 

[DaveB3D]

There was not "tweaking". There are certian options in the drivers that you can enable. "OPTIONS" being the key word. NVIDIA doesn't have these "options". I dunno, maybe they are forcing similar options in the Det3 drivers to get their magical boost. Whatever the case is though, we are just using what we are given. If NVIDIA were to give similar options, we'd do the same thing.

And actually, for settings. Most sites use "High Quality" mode, not "highest possible settings".

So for future reference, don't ever make accusations without the whole story and without evidence to back up your claim.

 

[KMurphy]

<< ...I don't speak on behalf of 3dfx. >>



and



<< ...and compatibility is most important to us. >>



Alrighty then.

 

[BFG10K]

If NVIDIA were to give similar options, we'd do the same thing.

But you didn't have similar options so you didn't do this. My point exactly.

I dunno, maybe they are forcing similar options in the Det3 drivers to get their magical boost.

Exactly. You don't know. So you tweak one card on the basis that the other might be tweaked in the same way? Is this honest reviewing?

And actually, for settings. Most sites use &quot;High Quality&quot; mode, not &quot;highest possible settings&quot;.

I think you need to read more websites. Tom's/Sharky's/Firing Squad often have &quot;max quality&quot;, which is the highest quality possible.

So for future reference, don't ever make accusations without the whole story and without evidence to back up your claim.

Pardon? Did you just not admit to me you made tweaks (or changed &quot;options&quot; as you call it) to one board and not to the other? Can you honestly tell me that that is a fair review?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were testing video cards, not how many options are tweakable in the drivers. If the general public was actually aware of what you were doing your website would be branded as a biased pro-3dfx site.

Sharky gets continually bashed for being an nVidia/Intel lover but even he doesn't pull stunts like you did, and his results correspond to what everyone else is getting.

 

[DaveB3D]

Your point? Don't try and twist my words. I'm not a 3dfx representative and because of that I don't speak on behalf of 3dfx. However, I was stating a simple fact. Compatiblity is key. If something doesn't work, who cares how fast it goes? Nobody.

 

[Slacker]

LOL @ Kmurphy

 

[MisterM]

<< So for future reference, don't ever make accusations without the whole story and without evidence to back up your claim. >>




Yeah, how could you possibly believe a dozen or more independ hardware review sites when there`s an 3dfx employee telling you that their vid cards are superior to NVidia`s right here?

 

[DaveB3D]

ROFLMAO,

This is fanboy speak I see. Not liking that V5 is just as fast eh?

But you didn't have similar options so you didn't do this. My point exactly.

There is no point. It isn't 3dfx's fault that they are giving options that increase performance without hurting quality. We shouldn't not use that because NVIDIA doesn't have them.


Pardon? Did you just not admit to me you made tweaks (or changed &quot;options&quot; as you call it) to one board and not to the other? Can you honestly tell me that that is a fair review?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were testing video cards, not how many options are tweakable in the drivers. If the general public was actually aware of what you were doing your website would be branded as a biased pro-3dfx site.

Do you really want to go here with me? 3dfx is giving the option to increase performance. NVIDIA is not doing this. You don't hold it against a company for doing something better when comparing it to the competition just because the competition doesn't do that. What you are saying basically means that whenever we benchmark 3DMark, we shouldn't turn on T&amp;L because the V5 doesn't have that option. Sorry, your argument doesn't hold.

 

[BFG10K]

This is fanboy speak I see. Not liking that V5 is just as fast eh?

A 3dfx employee is accusing me of being biased. LOL! That's a good one.
Sorry Dave but strawman arguments don't work on me.

There is no point. It isn't 3dfx's fault that they are giving options that increase performance without hurting quality. We shouldn't not use that because NVIDIA doesn't have them.

You are actually trying to convince me that it's OK to run tests of two differently configured boards? Next you'll be running benchmarks in Glide and comparing it to nVidia's OpenGL right? After all 3dfx &quot;gave&quot; you the &quot;option&quot; of running under Glide and nVidia didn't, right?

Oh yeah and last time I checked 3dfx's WHQL drivers don't provide an option for overclocking. Shouldn't you be overclocking nVidia's boards and then running the tests? After all nVidia provided you with the &quot;option&quot; to overclock, didn't they?

Do you really want to go here with me? 3dfx is giving the option to increase performance. NVIDIA is not doing this. You don't hold it against a company for doing something better when comparing it to the competition just because the competition doesn't do that.

This is absolutely unbelieveable. You actually think you are dong the right thing by tweaking one board and not the other? I'm sorry to say it but you are very much biased and I will take anything you say from now on with less than a grain of salt.

What you are saying basically means that whenever we benchmark 3DMark, we shouldn't turn on T&amp;L because the V5 doesn't have that option. Sorry, your argument doesn't hold.

That is completely different and you know it. You're suposed to testing hardware performance/features not driver tweaks.

One last thing: if you are so convinced you did the right thing why didn't you explicitly state what you did in the review? Something like &quot;Disclaimer: we tweaked the V5 as much as we could but we left the GF2 at stock settings&quot;. If you did nothing wrong why did you hide it? As it stands now you are totally deceiving everyone who read that article and has not read this thread.

 

[Dulanic]

But the point is why is it only YOU can get it to run as fast? Others have tried without coming up with your results of it being just as fast. Maybe on paper it is, but everyone knows the V5 is not as fast as the GTS in real world performance. As a consumerI honestly cant stand watching 3Dfx doing poorly, its letting NVidia charge higher prices. Of corse Im a NVidia stock holder so as an investor thats far from true. As a consumer I pray you guys have something up your sleeve with Rampage, and I hope its not another 2 or 4 chip solution. And god rest your soul if its more.

 

[Dulanic]

<< Oh yeah and last time I checked 3dfx's WHQL drivers don't provide an option for overclocking and also the GF boards overclock better than the V4/V5. Shouldn't you be overclocking nVidia's boards and then running the tests? After all nVidia provided you with the &quot;option&quot; to overclock, didn't they? >>




Sorry to do this but noones WHQL drivers allow overclocking.... M$ wont allow it.

 

[BFG10K]

Sorry to do this but noones WHQL drivers allow overclocking.... M$ wont allow it.

I'm well aware of that but that's beside the point. Anyway Dave could have used the beta drivers which are faster than the WHQL ones anyway. And they don't have options to overclock either. Besides, as a general rule nVidia's boards overclock better than 3dfx's anyway.

 

[DaveB3D]

Alright.. this is to all you ignorant 12 year olds.

I'm sick of this bull sh.it. I come here trying to share some information with people that they likely didn't know and I get attacked for it. I'm not going to deal with it. I'm not going to respond to attacks by you little kids because I don't have to. What I'm saying is very clear. if you don't like it, live with it. I don't care. There are a few people that seem to appreciate it.. such as NFS4, jpprod, Soccerman, etc. The rest of you can just go to hell. I'm not talking to you so don't get involved unless you have something constructive to say.

 

[DaveB3D]

and just for reference, I'm not talking about any beta drivers. I don't know where the hell you got that from.

 

[BFG10K]

Alright.. this is to all you ignorant 12 year olds.

You're the one who had the temper tantrum when you were proven wrong.

and just for reference, I'm not talking about any beta drivers. I don't know where the hell you got that from.

I just talked about those to prove a point to Dulanic about WHQL not having overclocking tweaks. You can disregard anything I mention about those. I'm well aware of the fact that you only used the WHQL drivers for your tests.

 

[DaveB3D]

proven wrong.. lol.. riiiiiigggggghhhhhhht. No, I could easily win this discussion, I'm just not wasting my time with little twerps (mentally) like yourself.

 

[bluemax]

So, DaveB3D, can you offer us a deal on Voodoo cards? Eh? *nudge* Eh?

I don't know why people war over these things, both 3dfx and nVidia have darn good products... some cards just do things a little better.
Super truncated version: nVidia = faster, 3dfx = prettier. Go with whatever you think is more important to you.

 

[Doomguy]

Dave, why dont you take a hike? Your arguments are very silly.

 

[DaveB3D]

hehe.. sorry.

 

[BFG10K]

I don't know why people war over these things

Bluemax are you even aware of what's going on here? This is nothing to do with 3dfx vs nVidia. This is about a review that was put up that was totally deceiving and biased. And the same person that put up this review is now in this very thread bashing nVidia.

Doesn't that concern you at all?

 

[DaveB3D]

I'll leave that up to the following people:

BenSkywalker
Jpprod
soccerman
NFS4

They seem to be the ones with half a brain around here (and some others.. just can remember your name ). If they want me to leave, I'll leave. I won't have some NVIDIOTs who can't handle the truth doing that.

You guys make me out to be saying that 3dfx is better than NVIDIA, blah, blah, blah. The truth is, I'm only saying the in high resolutions the V5 is as fast as (give or take a frame). is that so terrible? I don't think so.

 

[DaveB3D]

Tell NVIDIA to put optimizations in their driver and we'll use them. We are just using what we are given. It has nothing to do with bias. NVIDIA doesn't offer them, so we *can't* use them. 3dfx does so we *can*. What is so hard about dealing with that? Don't like it because you card isn't a lot faster? Sorry. Hell, I didn't even run the benchmarks. Kristof did.

 

[jmcoreymv]

Dave is obviously quite biased and I understand what hes going through. I mean if i worked for a company that kept getting raped by nVidia Id want to try and hype up my crappy-ass product.

 

[BFG10K]

The truth is, I'm only saying the in high resolutions the V5 is as fast as (give or take a frame).

Which is incorrect. What you should be saying is &quot;at high resolutions a tweaked V5 is as fast as an untweaked GF2&quot;.

is that so terrible? I don't think so.

It wouldn't be terrible if it was the truth.

 

[DaveB3D]

How the hell are DRIVER OPTIONS tweaking? The GTS HAS NO DRIVER OPTIONS. So they are screwed. TWEAKING is adjusting regitry settings, installing utilities, etc. None of that is involved. By your definition, turning on AA is tweaking.

As for the V5 getting raped, I'd strongly contest that. I have a board with every NVIDIA chip in it (MX, GTS 32&amp;64 and Ultra) and I use my V5 for all my gaming. I had this stuff before I worked at 3dfx and did the same. If the V5 were getting raped, I wouldn't use it.