nVidia Q&A posted

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bluemax

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2000
7,182
0
0
Hey DaveB3D, you're probably the guy to ask...
Which would be better for performance:

I am currently running a Celeron 450A- will I see a big speed difference between a 4500 and 5500 at all? (with the exception of the missing 4x FSAA?)
In other words, should I get a 4500 and try to upgrade the processor sooner, or get a 5500 and get a processor a little later. I never play above 1024x768 anyways, and I really want good FSAA for a number of games that only run in 640x480.

Is a 4500 on a Celeron 900 better than a 5500 on a Celeron 450A?
 

DaveB3D

Senior member
Sep 21, 2000
927
0
0
Well it depends on your persective I suspect.

Look at it like this:

If you get a 4500, you'll probably be able to run 2x AA with minimal performance impact. So as long as your CPU isn't making games unplayable you'll be fine. If you get a 5500 you'll be able to run 4x FSAA with minimal performance hit. So a lot of it depends on what you want.

If you go the 4500 route, I might suggest upgrading to an AMD CPU. I haven't tested it myself, but I've heard some great things about 4500 performance (with driver options set to max performance) on AMD systems. Apparently it beats the MX in the higher resolutions when this is the case (and don't jump on me on this.. just going by what I've heard and numbers I've seen).
 

Soccerman

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,378
0
0
"Its just too bad more developers dont program with it because it is a more dificult API to write for then is say D3D or Glide."

I wonder... if developers are so lazy, what's gonna happen with the Sony PS2?
 

dawheat

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2000
3,132
93
91
hey dave- if you're going to go through the hassle of running through benches, then could you have the final set be the max tweaked settings for each board? I'm referring to the way most of us here would use the boards- ie both overclocked to close to max with default cooling, settings that increase performace without sacrificing image quality, FSAA off, and image quality settings that don't sacrifice performace. And then list all the test systems and final settings so we can all try them out.

danke
 

DaveB3D

Senior member
Sep 21, 2000
927
0
0
Yeah sure. I don't plan on overclocking anything though. Default clocks is it.

I'm not entirely certain what options there are to set on the GTS though for increased performance. They really only have that one set of options, but it sacrifices image quality. So if you have anything you want me to set, let me know. I'm really not aware (off the top of my head anyway) of any options NVIDIA gives.
 

Ahriman6

Member
Oct 24, 2000
78
0
0
BFG:

You constantly express your belief you feel that two products should be benchmarked with identical settings. On the surface, I have no problem with that; however, there are other considerations to bear in mind, IMO.

Let's make a quick analogy here. Two video cards are two machines in factory that produce different manufactured items, depending on their settings (a blue nail or red nail, long or short). Now, these two machines come from two different companies, and of course each company wants to sell your factory their machine and they backup their sales pitch with lots of PR/marketing stuff. So your trusted factory QA guy goes through and makes sure each machine is set identically and they are then ran for, let's say, an hour each. At the end of that hour, the number of nails each produced is counted. The machine that produced the most will obviously be more enticing to the factory manager and his final purchase decision. That's pretty much the extent of your argument.

Here's where my problem is. NO ONE BOTHERED TO CHECK TO SEE IF THE NAILS THEMSELVES WERE IDENTICAL!!!! You see, my contention is this: settings are just that, settings, and while our QA guys (hardware reviewers) are so busy making sure their test settings are identical they don't check to see whether or not the finished product is the same!! Case in point: Nvidia's texture compression problems all year long! We all read the benchmark scores, tested with identical settings (except for the V5's inability to do trilinear filtering, which made it unfair to compare to the Nvidia cards), and that's probably what stuck in most people's minds. . .those numbers and how the GTS ruled the roost over the competition this summer. What didn't come to light, until somewhat recently, is that the final product of those settings was in no way, shape, or form similar enough to make the outcome of those settings fair!!! I cannot stress this enough! Almost every single reviewer out there utterly failed to comment on the image quality problems the GTS was creating with texture compression enabled.

So what Dave is arguing for is, IMO, quite sound, fair, and logical. Consumers are buying the finished, boxed product, and drivers are a factor in that overall purchase. The fact that the V5 could take advantage of its texture compression in a really nasty benchmark like Reverend's Quaver demo without causing the final product (displayed image) to be degraded in its overall quality while the Nvidia boards could not means that the focus of a reviewer's attention, the onus of benchmarking, should therefore be shifted towards the final product. And by using Nvidia's texture compression problems, I'm not trying to bash Nvidia or play favorites for 3dfx. It's just a great example to show how focusing on equivalent settings as the crux for supposed objective testing completely fails to take into account the final product of such testing. These products are not identical in how they perform, or in their hardware implementations, so blindly assuming that identical driver settings will result in identical hardware operations is a fallacy. Had reviewers been paying closer attention, they might've noticed that the V5 wasn't performing trilinear filtering in Q3 even though the game allowed it to be used as a software setting.

Now, you're going to come back and ask: what else can be used as a baseline for fair and objective testing? To be honest, I'm not sure, I honestly don't know, and things are only going to get worse next year as reviewers scramble to determine which company will have the most powerful, useful, and flexible T&L for games. Will they stupidly use proprietary, synthetic benchmarks (like Treemark) or will they use only 3DMark 2001?
 

ndee

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
12,680
1
0
OK, I read this whole thread. BFG10K, I don't think you really understand. Dave understands tweaking, like overclocking etc. I don't own a GTS II or a V5, but I think in this review, as far as I understand, they also tried to get the best out of the DEFAULT nVidia driver, didn't they? If yes, I don't see any problem BFG10K. If they just installed the nVidia drivers, and didn't look at the options, that's lame, but if they did, where's your point BFG10K? And no, I'm not a 3DFX Zealot, I'm looking at it from a neutral point. Where's the review anyway?

Just my 0.02$, and please, be more tolerant
 

BurnedNIU

Junior Member
Nov 11, 2000
9
0
0
I agree, i think everyone here does.
I think the only thing people are unhappy about is that they want to know what was changed....
 

DaveB3D

Senior member
Sep 21, 2000
927
0
0
Well in the article that this whole thing started on, nothing was changed as the drivers didn't have the support at the time. However, I think some benchmarks need to get out with the changes made. I'll get the guys at B3D to do some if it comes down to it.
 

Pete

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
4,953
0
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Talk about much ado about nothing--sheesh! :disgust: Dave, good to see you're helping educate gamers beyond--um, Beyond 3D. It's nice to see you and other B3D regulars raise the level of conversation in these boards a bit, at least beyond company worship. Not to dis the mature posters here, but too many posts are rushed rants rather than intelligent discussion (my definition of too many is >1).

BFG, your first post was your most useful--all you want is clearly-labelled settings. Yet you make huge replies picking on every other little thing, diluting your point and wasting our time. The people who read B3D, and most of the people who read Anandtech and post to the BBS, are hardcore gamers. They will adjust their settings to give themselves the biggest advantage. So while not using Glide on V5's simply b/c it's proprietary to 3dfx may be a matter of principle, it is a total non-issue to gamers--if Glide makes my games run faster, damn right I'm going to use it. A video card is the sum of it's hardware AND software--notice why so many people are wary of the Radeon. So if 3dfx has more tweakable drivers, and if those tweaks enable better performance, there is NO reason not to use them in benchmarks. You said that when comparing printer speed, you should run competing models at the same dpi--are you kidding me? If HP can produce better text quality at 600x600 (its top res.) than Epson can at 1440x720 (its top res.) and at higher ppm b/c it's at lower res, you can't fault HP for doing better with less. One product simply outperforms the other in one aspect, and consumers want to know that. They want real world results, not principle. And I love how you say your being an anti-3dfx person is irrelevant, while Dave's working for 3dfx is totally relevant. I agree that disclosing all the settings used in benchmarking is essential to trustable info, but I don't think that you should take things to short-sighted extremes. Use the best settings for your card, just like all of us do, and benchmark like that.

Knightbreed--you basically told Dave to shut up without disputing the substance of his argument. Why? When he says something that's out of line, then call him on it--don't tell him not to speak just because he works for company X. BTW, did you know him since B3D? Then you'd know they run a very reputable site, with a core of dedicated, intelligent gamers many of whom are in the business. He didn't gain their respect by being a liar. And just b/c you work for a company doesn't mean you love where you work (well, in Dave's case it seems so )--take Brian Burke, for instance. Anyway, I really don't put as much credit in people's history as I do in what they say.
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
Look Dave, you are never going to win your argument here because there are too many diehard nvidia fans. Personally, i could care less. I bought my gf2 for 180 bucks and i am damn happy with it, good speed good fsaa etc. I have yet to run into a single problem with it. The Voodoo 5500 is probably just as good, but you cannot dispute the fact that the gf2 is slightly faster overall.
 

DaveB3D

Senior member
Sep 21, 2000
927
0
0
Oh sure, it is slightly faster.. but a a couple of fps means about jack when it comes down to it.
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
"a couple fps means jack"

I agree with you completely, however many buyers look straight at the numbers and when the see the geforce on top, that is what they go far. Unfortunately, that is the way things are. Btw, how does the voodoo5500 stack up to the geforce in mdk2. I am really curious because mdk2 has t&l support and i want to see if the voodoo is still up there with the geforce.
 

DaveB3D

Senior member
Sep 21, 2000
927
0
0
Well if you look in the other thread (one with my name in the title) you'll see benchmarks with the V5 and GTS being neck and neck in Q3. The amazing thing about this is that he isn't using depth precision and refresh optimization. So actually the V5 could come out on top. Wouldn't that be a turn of events.


As for MDK2. V5 has made a load of improvements with that games as well, but I really don't have any numbers for you off the top of my head.
 

AlabamaMan

Junior Member
Nov 1, 2000
19
0
0
Dave, it those new features are so great, (huge framerate boost with no downside as far as quality is concerned) would you care to explain why doesn't 3dfx enable them by default?
 

DaveB3D

Senior member
Sep 21, 2000
927
0
0
3dfx's primary concern is the user. Most users don't know about this stuff (case in point, everyone here apparently ). That said, there is the possibilty that these things could cause issues with games (as I mentioned, I've yet to see them). And so with that in mind, they just set it to fast as default. So you do get a performance boost over having it disabled, but you aren't getting what you are fully able to. So it is something of a safety net. A "just in case something doesn't work" type deal. This is a lot better than forcing performance enhancements like certain other companies.. (coughNVIDIAcough.... sorry, had to ).
 

AlabamaMan

Junior Member
Nov 1, 2000
19
0
0
Just to make sure: 3dfx left these features disabled because they can cause problems, is that what you are saying? If that is so, what kind of problems are we talking about?
 

DaveB3D

Senior member
Sep 21, 2000
927
0
0
I don't really know to be honest. The problems aren't very common because I've not seen them at all myself. I think it was more of a "just in case" deal. For those who don't know about them, if a problem was to crop up, they wouldn't know to check the feature to see if it was the cause. I assume it would be some rasterazation issue. A Z issue.
 

DaveB3D

Senior member
Sep 21, 2000
927
0
0
hrm.. I don't really think so. Personally, I say to max it out. If you come up with any issue, try setting it back.
 
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