Nvidia ,Rtx2080ti,2080,2070, information thread. Reviews and prices September 14.

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Cableman

Member
Dec 6, 2017
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I also work from home sometimes so I know what you mean. I found one 27 in 4k 144hz gsync monitor and that's the acer predator which is on sale at microcenter for $1799 right now. Sure I could pay that but do I really want to? Has some odd side curtain things on it too. I could simply just get a 4k 60hz and just use that.

I don't think next year's gpu's will be any cheaper seeing how Nvidia loves up charging, mainly now to clear 10 series stock. I think they will go as high as they can with prices but if they do next year what would be their excuse? This time it's a new gen of new architecture for Ray tracing. Next year will build upon that so we will see. Waiting is a good technique as I too recently got into some games I passed up on pc when they released and I got them super cheap too later.

The current 4k 144Hz monitors are first gen so there are a lot of things that need to be improved before they are worth it. I would also like something bigger than 27". But there are some awesome 4k 60Hz monitors.

Nvidia will come up with an excuse to charge even more next year unless people buy less this time around. But the $1200 2080ti is already sold so that's not a very good sign. As other people pointed out, GPU prices are going up, RAM is still crazy expensive, etc. Not the best time for PC enthusiasts. That's why I say buy awesome $10 games and enjoy them on the cheap with your current system.
 

dlerious

Golden Member
Mar 4, 2004
1,815
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Nah, been seeing this kind of hope forever and it never happened. Intel GPUs are our best bet.



You get so much more longevity out of a display than a card it's well worth the extra money. Only problem is one needs the appropriate hardware to utilize said display

I got my monitor while sporting a 970 and it was nightmarish. Chucked in a 980 Ti Classified (loved that enough to marry it) to set it loose and it ran like a dream.
It's been about a year since I looked, but I was getting upset every time I looked at a new monitor - mainly 4k, some 1440. They all had like Displayport 1.2 and HDMI 1.4a. I was hoping they'd be supporting new standards by now.
 

ub4ty

Senior member
Jun 21, 2017
749
898
96
Your position seems to be that they are doomed to fail, and that is life, while also arguing that they are doing something wrong.
Your position seems to be to try to rebrand my perfectly grounded and proven framing as a illogical appeal to extremes. You can present your own argument w/ supports but don't try to continually reframe mine into such an extreme and illogical posture. One should hope no company ever dominates and lasts forever. None ever does. Some of the biggest names of a generation die in another. Carrying all of that dead weight, legacy, etc has consequences. The bigger you are the less agile. Some hungry upstart is always going to vie for your piece of the pie and be more efficient at it. Beyond hope is the reality that no one can for they fall for the natural trappings all do in nature.
You a born, you ascend to a peak point, you decline, and you die. This is true for human beings, animals, organic life, atoms, Galaxies, and so on and so forth. Many corporations think they are immune to the laws of nature and those fall the hardest from grace.

The future is set upon with open standards and commoditized hardware.
Anyone who is happy to participate is welcome, but margins are going to shrink and one's ability to try to dominate multiple verticals and horizontals will as the overall platform becomes decentralized and democratized. Only in late cycles can you pull off what is being done. It usually marks the end of the trend... You can tell by the vocal naysayers who claim it will continue on forever. Remember memecoin? $120k by the end of 2018? Remember everyone telling participants they were fools participating in a ponzi scheme? Remember all of the technologist claiming it was the 2nd coming? Remember tulip mania?

Remember hair works? PhysX? Blockbuster? ToysRus? circuit city? Oracle? IBM? Compaq computers? Voodoo graphics?

Times change my dude. Nothing in this galaxy or universe can avoid the hands of time.

I've stated my position with supports. There's doesn't seem to be anything of sound counter against it.
 
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ub4ty

Senior member
Jun 21, 2017
749
898
96
The current 4k 144Hz monitors are first gen so there are a lot of things that need to be improved before they are worth it. I would also like something bigger than 27". But there are some awesome 4k 60Hz monitors.

Nvidia will come up with an excuse to charge even more next year unless people buy less this time around. But the $1200 2080ti is already sold so that's not a very good sign. As other people pointed out, GPU prices are going up, RAM is still crazy expensive, etc. Not the best time for PC enthusiasts. That's why I say buy awesome $10 games and enjoy them on the cheap with your current system.
Supply constraints whether artificial or real.
The 2080ti was sold out rather quickly from its availability... I mean in a matter of minutes

By comparison, the 2080 is not sold out even days after launch on Nvidia's website. The 2080 had availability issues but is showing up now for $50 off : https://old.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/99sdjy/rtx_2080_for_750_back_on_newegg/

The mining mania proved to nvidia that there was a market for insane prices and they're now trying to milk it. After days of price complaints the marketing team let out that the lower MSRP prices will be made available soon. That's $100 off 2080 and lower and $200 off 2080ti. They gave themselves some buffer room in their attempted price gouge and are letting supplies trickle just the same as what happened doing the miner mania to extract a max price from consumers. This is what happens when consumers don't rebuff ridiculous prices. On ebay, there are a number of scalpers w/ $2,500 price tags on 2080ti pre-orders as they should as it seems price doesn't matter to some people. I honestly felt there was no potential to extract 50% or more and still don't so I was/am reluctant to buy one to flip. Rumors are they have a surplus of Geforce 20s and Geforce 10s. Supply and price data behavior are just as scammy as they were during the crypto boom and aren't reliable measures as to what's going on. People let suppliers know they would allow themselves to be absolute ripped off if supply seemed to be short. Business/Marketing are never going to let go of this until people take a stand.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Your position seems to be to try to rebrand my perfectly grounded and proven framing as a illogical appeal to extremes. You can present your own argument w/ supports but don't try to continually reframe mine into such an extreme and illogical posture. One should hope no company ever dominates and lasts forever. None ever does. Some of the biggest names of a generation die in another. Carrying all of that dead weight, legacy, etc has consequences. The bigger you are the less agile. Some hungry upstart is always going to vie for your piece of the pie and be more efficient at it. Beyond hope is the reality that no one can for they fall for the natural trappings all do in nature.
You a born, you ascend to a peak point, you decline, and you die. This is true for human beings, animals, organic life, atoms, Galaxies, and so on and so forth. Many corporations think they are immune to the laws of nature and those fall the hardest from grace.

The future is set upon with open standards and commoditized hardware.
Anyone who is happy to participate is welcome, but margins are going to shrink and one's ability to try to dominate multiple verticals and horizontals will as the overall platform becomes decentralized and democratized. Only in late cycles can you pull off what is being done. It usually marks the end of the trend... You can tell by the vocal naysayers who claim it will continue on forever. Remember memecoin? $120k by the end of 2018? Remember everyone telling participants they were fools participating in a ponzi scheme? Remember all of the technologist claiming it was the 2nd coming? Remember tulip mania?

Remember hair works? PhysX? Blockbuster? ToysRus? circuit city? Oracle? IBM? Compaq computers? Voodoo graphics?

Times change my dude. Nothing in this galaxy or universe can avoid the hands of time.

I've stated my position with supports. There's doesn't seem to be anything of sound counter against it.

You understand the hardware, but not the business.

Nvidia is maximizing its profits in the short run, to allow itself to have cash and capital in the long run. Nvidia is doing things like hair works, physX because it helps give itself a market advantage. You are going on and on so I'm going to leave you alone now.
 
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PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
2,605
1,540
136
Yeah sorry, the new one. I understood the base plate doesn't touch and thus not cools many significant components, unlike AIB designs that have been disassembled so far.

Are you referring to what Gamers Nexus said? IIRC, that was more along the lines of:

"it won't cool anything that it doesn't have direct contact with"

But there is no indication that it lacks direct contact with important parts.

The issues is that the Vapor Chamber essentially covers the board. So there is no air from the fan hitting the PCB.

This looks like a non issues as long as the Vapor Chamber contacts the GPU/RAM/VRM which are the major heat generating parts, and I really doubt NVidia failed to grasp that.

IMO this is probably providing very good cooling in a compact design due to the large Vapor Chamber.
 

ub4ty

Senior member
Jun 21, 2017
749
898
96
You understand the hardware, but not the business.

Nvidia is maximizing its profits in the short run, to allow itself to have cash and capital in the long run. Nvidia is doing things like hair works, physX because it helps give itself a market advantage. You are going on and on so I'm going to leave you alone now.

I understand the hardware. I also understand the business because I work in the industry and am well informed on every aspect of it including its history. I have sat in rooms where margins are discussed. I know what underlies a great deal of popular trends in tech. Your mistake is assuming I don't which is why you keep challenging my commentary w/ a lack of supported arguments. I was within ear shot of billion dollar mishaps in a certain market pertaining to cloud providers rolling their own whitebox wares. This caught traction and will never be put back in the box... Why? because a company decided to finally push them over the edge w/ your proported advanced business strategy of :
maximizing its profits in the short run, to allow itself to have cash and capital in the long run.
Games last as long as people figure out the rules and strategy you're playing. If your consumers know you're going to do the following in a generation, they simply skip it or ramp competition into it. Guess what happened to Intel? AMD rocked them from left field when they were least prepared and gassing the time tested 'gouge when you're in the lead' business model. Business strategies change namely when everyone figures it out and counters it.

Nvidia is maximizing its profits in the short run.. has been for quite some time.
Obviously, and this can make or break a business in the long term.

...to allow itself to have cash and capital in the long run.
They already have enough cash and capital for the 'long term'. That's what the historical period that put them ahead of Radeon/ATI was all about. What is occurring now is what befalls all cash heavy front runners. You run out of road and then circle back on gouging your core market. Instead of securing the lead and seeking volume dominance by locking in the masses on a new product/proprietary feature, you fumble it, gouge them, and lose the lead you spent all of your R&D money on creating.

A business always has to make a series of very calculated and critical decision when they're in the lead as to when to let off the gas, terminate excessive profit seeking, and try to cement a volume lead in a new feature/market. There's also the classic problem of having no competition to provide insight into where to economically spend the capital. Then comes the unaccounted number of misguided Malinvestments in R&D.. Intel again serves as a good recent example... hands down.

2-3 selective quote critiques w/ no supporting arguments or references don't prove your case.
No one uses physx or hairworks... not sure if you caught the reference. Business isn't complicated.. Sit in enough of the right meetings and you figure this out quickly.
 
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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I understand the hardware. I also understand the business because I work in the industry and am well informed on every aspect of it including its history. I have sat in rooms where margins are discussed. I know what underlies a great deal of popular trends in tech. Your mistake is assuming I don't which is why you keep challenging my commentary w/ a lack of supported arguments. I was within ear shot of billion dollar mishaps in a certain market pertaining to cloud providers rolling their own whitebox wares. This caught traction and will never be put back in the box... Why? because a company decided to finally push them over the edge w/ your proported advanced business strategy of :

Games last as long as people figure out the rules and strategy you're playing. If your consumers know you're going to do the following in a generation, they simply skip it or ramp competition into it. Guess what happened to Intel? AMD rocked them from left field when they were least prepared and gassing the time tested 'gouge when you're in the lead' business model. Business strategies change namely when everyone figures it out and counters it.


Obviously, and this can make or break a business in the long term.


They already have enough cash and capital for the 'long term'. That's what the historical period that put them ahead of Radeon/ATI was all about. What is occurring now is what befalls all cash heavy front runners. You run out of road and then circle back on gouging your core market. Instead of securing the lead and seeking volume dominance by locking in the masses on a new product/proprietary feature, you fumble it, gouge them, and lose the lead you spent all of your R&D money on creating.

A business always has to make a series of very calculated and critical decision when they're in the lead as to when to let off the gas, terminate excessive profit seeking, and try to cement a volume lead in a new feature/market. There's also the classic problem of having no competition to provide insight into where to economically spend the capital. Then comes the unaccounted number of misguided Malinvestments in R&D.. Intel again serves as a good recent example... hands down.

2-3 selective quote critiques w/ no supporting arguments or references don't prove your case.
No one uses physx or hairworks... not sure if you caught the reference. Business isn't complicated.. Sit in enough of the right meetings and you figure this out quickly.

Then tell me, why is Nvidia maximizing profits in the short term a bad business model when they have no competition? What made the others fail was lack of innovation which allowed a competitor to leapfrog them. Nvidia is not doing that, so what do you think its doing wrong here?
 

ub4ty

Senior member
Jun 21, 2017
749
898
96
Then tell me, why is Nvidia maximizing profits in the short term a bad business model when they have no competition?
Nvidia should have been maximizing profit for the two years there was no challenge to Pascal. During the period they had record profits in the gaming segment and also thanks to the windfall from memecoin. Prior to that, they were already the segment leader w/ a dominant brand. They correctly expanded into general purpose computing with CUDA and cemented a larger and new segment of business. From there a sound attempt to push into the embedded market. They milked the snot out of these markets w/ little to no competition, expanded brand awareness and supremacy into new markets and have been riding on a cloud of properly executed business decisions. Now they face competition in every one of these segments. Thus, for longer term success it would be more sensible to retract the price premiums and push proprietary standards so as to solidify market capture before your competition delivers their product. Instead, they went for the sophomoric business approach of trying to continue to milk all of its markets including its exhausted cash cow with an unproven technology. This will result in what you're seeing which is a broad based market rejection, a reduction as to the quality of your brand, and a negative sentiment among your primary core market which favors your competitors. If your competitors rebuff you correctly, they easily take market share away from you in your core market and then mount fresh pressure against you in your unproven growth markets with the momentum they solidified. So, this is formulaic and classic miscalculation in business that has severe consequences. Never screw your primary market when you have not solidified volume in sought after growth markets.

What made the others fail was lack of innovation which allowed a competitor to leapfrog them. Nvidia is not doing that, so what do you think its doing wrong here?
What others? There was only ATI/Radeon who has been languishing but in no shape or form has failed. There's console markets, secondary relationships and a slew of other pro markets that still are up in the air. Not only that, Nvidia has been creating quite the public stink w/ its greedy maneuvers while not delivering anything new over the past 2 years...
Have you forgotten about :
https://www.pcworld.com/article/326...ics/nvidia-kills-geforce-partner-program.html
^They had a pipeline of pure greed maneuvers that the market has been signaling its tired of.

So, whose failed at innovation? Vega 56/64 can actually best a number of pascal cards in gaming performance and compute. They come equipped with HBM2 and have a slew of innovative features. The only thing that's bad about them are the dev tools/support/drivers which have improved w/ time. The big difference being that theres are open source an non-proprietary and Nvidia's is full-retard proprietary. Guess who wins in the long term? Open standards. So, in all aspects, Nvidia's making a broad and arrogant miscalculation that will result in a number of consequences in the coming years. They milked for too long and slacked off like intel did. Ray tracing already occurs in the traditional graphics pipeline via emulation. Nvidia's ray trace cores only deal with a segment of the ray tracing process. It's a beta feature at most. DLSS is a meme for AA and needed in order to hide the flaws in their ray tracing cores. The real thing causing the performance bump is :

Where's the innovation? Die shrink and cache reconfiguration...

AMD meanwhile brought HBM2.0 to a desktop GPU and has double rate FP16.. Something Nvidia kept segmented to its pro market with no intention to bring to the consumer. Meanwhile, you get a teaser helping of ray trace cores and tensor cores which are nothing but matrix math units and a retuned Pascal (An SM architecture Nvidia has been sitting on for years?). So, this is a mistake from a business perspective and excuse me for not praising the introduction of meme cores at Quadro pricing. I've personally terminated my order of Geforce20 as an eval card, will not be looking for ways to exploit ray tracing cores or tensor cores for speedups and have instructed further development to focus on speedups in standardized FP16 compute. I was interested in how tensor cores and nvlink would shape up towards the consumer market. My assessment is that others will catalyze and standardize a more open and cheaper linkage and acceleration pipeline. So, I will not be investing in something of proprietary makeup that will not win out in the long run. In the coming years, Vulkan should be sound enough that a wealth of pluggable hardware will fill the gap that Nvidia is leaving open. I look forward to 2019 and even the most ardent Nvidia fans do. People are discussing the price more than their excitement of the new features .. This is an across the board failure. One that is more likely fueled by a greedy and overconfident Business department and not the engineering/R&D team whose crucial work is being slowly parceled out at moronic pricing.

Again, intel made the same mistake did they not? And look how its working out for them.
It's a classic misstep mature companies make when they're in the lead. It's as natural as the air you breathe and likely unavoidable... thank God
 
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wanderica

Senior member
Oct 2, 2005
224
52
101
I look at it like this:

2080 Ti replaces Titan Xp
2080 the 1080 Ti
2070 the 1080/1070 Ti

I keep seeing that, but the numbers that Nvidia themselves released don't look that way to me. I can buy that the 2080Ti is replacing the slot held by the Titan in Pascal. The Titan and 1080Ti were close enough in performance that it's silly to argue otherwise, but the 2080 doesn't look to provide enough of a boost, based on Nvidia's published benchmark numbers to slot into the slot formerly held by the 1080Ti. We've seen nothing but Ray Tracing numbers on the 2070, so it's still a tossup. Considering that we have no point of reference for Ray Tracing numbers except for Pascal, and it seems a bit of a leap to keep shouting that the performance brackets have shifted entirely.

Jay at Jayz2cents actually had a good point in a recent video when he suggested that Nvidia was trying to distance the Titan name from gaming, and to be fair, the Titan V was not advertised as a gaming card at all. Even there, though, one could argue that its price made that a stretch. Personally, I think that instead of "shifting" the card names (if that's indeed what they've done), they would have been better off changing the naming scheme entirely. It would have been a perfect opportunity to bring back the xx90 or Ultra names instead of keeping the Ti.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
25,752
14,783
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Nope, closed and constantly refined standards always win: DirectX vs OpenGL, Windows vs Linux, iOS vs Android and so on.
Well, lets see, how many have Android phones ? Most people I know. Linux ? 2 of 12 of my boxes have windows, the rest are linux. Directx vs OpenGL ? no idea.

But I would not say its an open and shut case.
 

dlerious

Golden Member
Mar 4, 2004
1,815
734
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I keep seeing that, but the numbers that Nvidia themselves released don't look that way to me. I can buy that the 2080Ti is replacing the slot held by the Titan in Pascal. The Titan and 1080Ti were close enough in performance that it's silly to argue otherwise, but the 2080 doesn't look to provide enough of a boost, based on Nvidia's published benchmark numbers to slot into the slot formerly held by the 1080Ti. We've seen nothing but Ray Tracing numbers on the 2070, so it's still a tossup. Considering that we have no point of reference for Ray Tracing numbers except for Pascal, and it seems a bit of a leap to keep shouting that the performance brackets have shifted entirely.

Jay at Jayz2cents actually had a good point in a recent video when he suggested that Nvidia was trying to distance the Titan name from gaming, and to be fair, the Titan V was not advertised as a gaming card at all. Even there, though, one could argue that its price made that a stretch. Personally, I think that instead of "shifting" the card names (if that's indeed what they've done), they would have been better off changing the naming scheme entirely. It would have been a perfect opportunity to bring back the xx90 or Ultra names instead of keeping the Ti.
They're slotted into the higher tiers based on price not performance.
$1200 - Old Titan , new x80Ti
$800 - Old x80Ti , new x80
$600 - Old x80 , new x70
$400 - Old x70 , new x60 ???
$250 - Old x60 , new x50 ???
$110 - Old x50 , new x30 ???
 
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wanderica

Senior member
Oct 2, 2005
224
52
101
They're slotted into the higher tiers based on price not performance.
$1200 - Old Titan , new x80Ti
$800 - Old x80Ti , new x80
$600 - Old x80 , new x70
$400 - Old x70 , new x60 ???
$250 - Old x60 , new x50 ???
$110 - Old x50 , new x30 ???

I understand that completely, but I see folks using that as the reason for the price hike while ignoring the performance aspect (the Jayz2cents video I mentioned earlier did exactly this). The change in pricing brackets only makes sense if it also sees a shift in performance relative to those brackets. Otherwise, all they've done is increase prices regardless of what they name the cards (I.E. give me 2080 performance for 2080Ti pricing). That is what myself, and many others, are currently taking issue with.
 

Ottonomous

Senior member
May 15, 2014
559
292
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I understand that completely, but I see folks using that as the reason for the price hike while ignoring the performance aspect (the Jayz2cents video I mentioned earlier did exactly this). The change in pricing brackets only makes sense if it also sees a shift in performance relative to those brackets. Otherwise, all they've done is increase prices regardless of what they name the cards (I.E. give me 2080 performance for 2080Ti pricing). That is what myself, and many others, are currently taking issue with.
the only deterrent to shift in that bracket is non-existent: a competitive AMD GPU. They can let the 1080/2070 hold down the Vega 64, even if its not a consideration among buyers. There is no regulatory body that will intervene either. Nvidia is simply going to redefine the landscape beyond x70, free as they can and Intel style.
 
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dlerious

Golden Member
Mar 4, 2004
1,815
734
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I understand that completely, but I see folks using that as the reason for the price hike while ignoring the performance aspect (the Jayz2cents video I mentioned earlier did exactly this). The change in pricing brackets only makes sense if it also sees a shift in performance relative to those brackets. Otherwise, all they've done is increase prices regardless of what they name the cards (I.E. give me 2080 performance for 2080Ti pricing). That is what myself, and many others, are currently taking issue with.
Yeah, but a 1060 almost beats a 980 and a 1070 beats a 980 Ti. Thankfully, they weren't priced at those levels.

http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GTX-980-Ti-vs-Nvidia-GTX-1070/3439vs3609
http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GTX-980-vs-Nvidia-GTX-1060-6GB/2576vs3639
 

Ottonomous

Senior member
May 15, 2014
559
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mohit9206

Golden Member
Jul 2, 2013
1,381
511
136
That would mean a $315 1070 Ti. I'd still say no. The best two years of Pascal have been used up and Nvidia's probably going to stop optimizing for Pascal within a year or so. If Pascal goes on fire sale prices like Hawaii in late 2014 then maybe I'd jump on a 1070 Ti. Otherwise? No.
1070Ti costs $540 in my country (20% tax + import duties). So if it even went down to $400 I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Tbh even tjen i can't justify spending $400 on a graphics card. Maybe if they went on a big sale, I'd happily pickup a 1060 6gb for $250 (currently cost $350)
 

Qwertilot

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2013
1,604
257
126
We really don't know yet if course but the leaks so far are consistent enough with a 2070 being ~= to a 1080ti performance wise.
(2080 mildly above but price premium as fastest non joke price.).

That's their standard operating procedure, so every reason to believe it. With DLSS it might even get non trivially past it.
 

Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
2,076
611
136
Well, lets see, how many have Android phones ? Most people I know. Linux ? 2 of 12 of my boxes have windows, the rest are linux. Directx vs OpenGL ? no idea.

But I would not say its an open and shut case.
Don't mix up free to use and open source. Android very much belongs to google - they say what goes in it. It's just as closed as any Nvidia product, it's just google make their money by selling our information not charging us upfront.
 
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mohit9206

Golden Member
Jul 2, 2013
1,381
511
136
We really don't know yet if course but the leaks so far are consistent enough with a 2070 being ~= to a 1080ti performance wise.
(2080 mildly above but price premium as fastest non joke price.).

That's their standard operating procedure, so every reason to believe it. With DLSS it might even get non trivially past it.
The newest hardware Unboxed video shows that 2080 might be only about 30% or so faster than 1080 in non dlss and non hdr settings so 2070 being ~ 1080ti is just not possible.
 

Qwertilot

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2013
1,604
257
126
1080ti to 1080 was only a 30% gap in the AT review. So even if you only got that you'd be trading rather faster with DLSS vs mildly slower otherwise. DLSS seems likely to get fairly common so probably an OK trade off.

They've changed enough stuff with this generation that benchmarks will be at least a bit complex.

Best to wait for them of course
 

TeknoBug

Platinum Member
Oct 2, 2013
2,084
31
91
MemoryExpress just put up 2080/2080Ti listings, $1600-1700 CAD for the 2080Ti is beyond ridiculous. 1080 came out at $999 and 1080Ti came out at $1100, almost $600 jump in next generation. As hard as it is to maintain money in Canada right now, I'm not sure if it will be a strong seller in Canada.
 
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