Nvidia ,Rtx2080ti,2080,2070, information thread. Reviews and prices September 14.

[crisium]

Well since your complaint is about possible pricing 6 months into the future, it has little to do with the launch.

I guess you can come back and complain in 6 months about the how the pricing is then, and how 6 month later on GTX 1000 series, you had a cheaper card.

But for the launch the top prices about the same as last release.

No, my complaint is a single tier has risen by 71%. Nvidia's considers Titan a professional card, which some in the media dub Prosumer.

Tesla
Quadro
Titan
GeForce

The 2080 Ti isn't just a Titan with paint. It's more than getting a rename. It's getting the GeForce gaming drivers (note: Titan drivers are now separate) and it gets all the benefits of custom AIB designs. But the price is moving into the Titan bracket. Consumer GeForce is now in Professional Titan price brackets, and pretty close to where low Quadro used to be. And even if we get a further cut down TU102 then it will still be another price bracket since 2080 is already more expensive than 1080 Ti MSRP. So even 6 months out things look grim.

And I'll go further into your discussion on prior release prices since you have now brought them up a second time. Once again you are falling into the slippery slope of Nvidia's price raises.

$700 1080
$800 2080 +14%

I'd go far as saying a 14% raise after two year is in itself unreasonable, but necessary from time to time. However, just like with the prices per die size, only when compared to last gen in isolation does this look reasonable. When you look at previous gens it looks hyper inflationary and unsustainable.

$550 980
$800 2080 + 45% in 4 years

And no matter which Fermi you use, prices look insane from 8 years ago with $250 560 Ti. That's a 3.2x increase. Even if we use some codename neutral metric such as 'second fastest card at launch" then we have the $350 570 and prices have more than doubled.

There are 2 reasons. One we can't really change besides pity buying AMD products, and that's a near monopoly. The other reason is that consumers are willing to pay these prices. Or are they? It's consumers refusal to buy and vocal complaints (forums, but more so on twitter, youtube, reddit, etc) that can hopefully put an end to this.

Preorders can have artificial scarcity, but it's hard to have artificial availability before running into legal problems. There's a reason 2080 isn't running out of preorders. There's a reason the first leak of performance slides was with a 2080 "2x1080" or actually 1.5x, and not 2080 Ti. I think consumer lack of interest in the 2080, both in preorders and comments, is already beginning to send a message.

The market forces always win out. And I will continue to try to persuade people how ridiculous either $800 or $1200 for a $350 GTX 570 successor really is so that the slippery slope doesn't become an unclimbable mountain. If your vested interest is convincing others $1200 is standard operating procedure, nothing to see here folks, etc then that's your hat to wear. We may have to agree to disagree based on our differences there.

 

[TheF34RChannel]

Damn is that with tax included? Probably not? I'm thinking they just want to make the most sales in US but even then it's still expensive. Then you have Europe too and other countries where inflation makes it an even harder sell.

It's very expensive here (Europe) probably not as bad as in Australia I reckon.

Anandtech:

"Speaking of clocks, it is noteworthy that all of the AIB makers that have disclosed base and boost frequencies of their GeForce RTX 2080 Ti cards decided to stick to clocks of Founder’s Edition cards. It is unclear whether this is a precaution on board partners' part, or a requirement of NVIDIA. However, if all AIB producers stick to this strategy, at least initially there will be no custom adapters that will offer higher performance than NVIDIA’s FE boards."

So they might be doing the 1070 Ti thing again with no factory OC allowed.

Now I personally am ok with this. With this I can simply compare the various AIB cards on noise and temperature. It's hard to find the best card when one might be louder and power hungrier but boosts higher than a more efficient one. Assuming you max OC anyway.

Though better cards may still sustain a higher boost longer since temps will be down.

Although I understand this is Nvidia sticking it to their own partners, so I'm not celebrating it. I'm just fine with it. But maybe things will change later and it's not enforced.

I'll bet Nvidia put a time lock on higher clocks (for example, see EVGA cards with TBA clocks and very few model offerings compared to their normal flooding).

You don't get it. The $1200 2080 Ti isn't a rebranded Titan. It's the Ti.

Er yes it is. Titan left the GeForce family with Volta. This is not news my good man

I suppose there's always the chance they could release that previously rumored RTX 2080+, which could be the new Ti equivalent. I am skeptical of this though, because as it stands, the RTX 2080Ti doesn't stand to impress, so cutting it down further certainly wouldn't get me to part with my $700. To be quite honest, so far this release doesn't appeal to me, even if prices didn't increase at all. I certainly wouldn't have pre ordered the stupid thing even at $700 without proper reviews, lol. Too many unknowns.

Personally I doubt that. I wouldn't be shocked to see their 7nm launch come March - May (maybe June at the latest), depending on when AMD outs theirs.

 

[Headfoot]

I wonder what % of preorder volume is attributable to scalpers? I know a lot of people buy a ton of preorders because they know they can flip them for a decent profit on ebay

 

[maddie]

No, my complaint is a single tier has risen by 71%. Nvidia's considers Titan a professional card, which some in the media dub Prosumer.

Tesla
Quadro
Titan
GeForce

The 2080 Ti isn't just a Titan with paint. It's more than getting a rename. It's getting the GeForce gaming drivers (note: Titan drivers are now separate) and it gets all the benefits of custom AIB designs. But the price is moving into the Titan bracket. Consumer GeForce is now in Professional Titan price brackets, and pretty close to where low Quadro used to be. And even if we get a further cut down TU102 then it will still be another price bracket since 2080 is already more expensive than 1080 Ti MSRP. So even 6 months out things look grim.

And I'll go further into your discussion on prior release prices since you have now brought them up a second time. Once again you are falling into the slippery slope of Nvidia's price raises.

$700 1080
$800 2080 +14%

I'd go far as saying a 14% raise after two year is in itself unreasonable, but necessary from time to time. However, just like with the prices per die size, only when compared to last gen in isolation does this look reasonable. When you look at previous gens it looks hyper inflationary and unsustainable.

$550 980
$800 2080 + 45% in 4 years

And no matter which Fermi you use, prices look insane from 8 years ago with $250 560 Ti. That's a 3.2x increase. Even if we use some codename neutral metric such as 'second fastest card at launch" then we have the $350 570 and prices have more than doubled.

There are 2 reasons. One we can't really change besides pity buying AMD products, and that's a near monopoly. The other reason is that consumers are willing to pay these prices. Or are they? It's consumers refusal to buy and vocal complaints (forums, but more so on twitter, youtube, reddit, etc) that can hopefully put an end to this.

Preorders can have artificial scarcity, but it's hard to have artificial availability before running into legal problems. There's a reason 2080 isn't running out of preorders. There's a reason the first leak of performance slides was with a 2080 "2x1080" or actually 1.5x, and not 2080 Ti. I think consumer lack of interest in the 2080, both in preorders and comments, is already beginning to send a message.

The market forces always win out. And I will continue to try to persuade people how ridiculous either $800 or $1200 for a $350 GTX 570 successor really is so that the slippery slope doesn't become an unclimbable mountain. If your vested interest is convincing others $1200 is standard operating procedure, nothing to see here folks, etc then that's your hat to wear. We may have to agree to disagree based on our differences there.

The boiling frog technique does work, especially with some of the frogs decrying the rest for not enjoying the warmth.

 

[TheF34RChannel]

I, too, first thought there was a major price hike. But then I learned a thing or two and it's obvious there really isn't any. The segments remained, only the names changed. I don't think we would be having many of these discussions if they simply used a new name for the top tier - or at least explained the shift in the keynote.

 

[PeterScott]

The 2080 Ti isn't just a Titan with paint. It's more than getting a rename. It's getting the GeForce gaming drivers (note: Titan drivers are now separate) and it gets all the benefits of custom AIB designs. .

Sure it is.

TitanX and TitanXP are top end GAMING cards just like 2080Ti. Are trying to pretend these are anything but expensive gaming cards? I don't see anything on this page about professional usage:

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/products/10series/titan-x-pascal/

GeForce GTX 10-series graphics cards are powered by Pascal to deliver up to 3x the performance of previous-generation graphics cards, plus innovative new gaming technologies and breakthrough VR experiences.

UP TO 3XFASTER PERFORMANCE
LATEST GAMING TECHNOLOGIES
NEXT-GEN VR

And speaking of Paint jobs there is this Titan:

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforc...-wars-jedi-order-titan-xp-collectors-edition/

NVIDIA PASCAL
Pascal is the power driving the ultimate creative weapon, the NVIDIA TITAN Xp Collector's Edition GPU.

UP TO 3X FASTER PERFORMANCE
LATEST GAMING TECHNOLOGIES
NEXT-GEN VR EXPERIENCES

Your entire ongoing rant is based on nothing more than semantics.

Last release Titan X was the first Big Pascal GAMING card. This time the first Big Turing Gaming card is the 2080Ti. Only the name has changed. The same kind of early adopters that bought Big Pascal have been scooping up Big Turing.

They could have called this Titan T, and the only thing that would have changed is there would be less forum griping.

 

[sze5003]

I wonder what % of preorder volume is attributable to scalpers? I know a lot of people buy a ton of preorders because they know they can flip them for a decent profit on ebay

Without any performance data or information and the fact that they are selling for $1200, Im curious about this as well. People are taking a chance with scalping them I would say. Whoever decides to pay $1800 to 2k or more from ebay is an idiot. Those scalpers are hoping reviews and benches are going to be phenomenal otherwise they won't sell any.

I doubt they will run out of stock completely. They will always have more made it will just take a month in between the last batch. Besides I think a lot of people are going to just get a 10 series now that they are a lot cheaper.

 

[crisium]

The boiling frog technique does work, especially with some of the frogs decrying the rest for not enjoying the warmth.

Oh, I just looked that up, it's very interesting. Thanks, I will use that in place of slippery slope in the future on this topic. Very applicable to this situation.

 

[ozzy702]

Yep it sucks! Sadly the cry for competition is mainly to get nvidia offerings for cheaper.

I've ran NVIDIA 8800GT, ATI 4850, ATI 4890, NVIDIA 570, AMD 7950/7970, AMD 390, NVIDIA 1070/1080TI.

If AMD has a solid GPU and drivers people will buy it. Unfortunately AMD is a solid two generations behind NVIDIA at this point and the gap just keeps getting wider.

Hopefully in 2020+ AMD/Intel will have a Ryzen moment with NVIDIA and catch up but NVIDIA is really a juggernaut and executes well so I'm not going to hold my breath.

 

[n0x1ous]

I've ran NVIDIA 8800GT, ATI 4850, ATI 4890, NVIDIA 570, AMD 7950/7970, AMD 390, NVIDIA 1070/1080TI.

If AMD has a solid GPU and drivers people will buy it. Unfortunately AMD is a solid two generations behind NVIDIA at this point and the gap just keeps getting wider.

Hopefully in 2020+ AMD/Intel will have a Ryzen moment with NVIDIA and catch up but NVIDIA is really a juggernaut and executes well so I'm not going to hold my breath.

Vega 64 is still a solid 1440 p card

 

[MrTeal]

Your entire ongoing rant is based on nothing more than semantics.

Last release Titan X was the first Big Pascal GAMING card. This time the first Big Turing Gaming card is the 2080Ti. Only the name has changed. The same kind of early adopters that bought Big Pascal have been scooping up Big Turing.

They could have called this Titan T, and the only thing that would have changed is there would be less forum griping.

On that point, you're very likely right and nvidia probably should have done that. My guess as to the reason they didn't is that they have a proper Titan card in the market with good DP performance in the Titan V, and they'll continue to sell that into the markets they originally envisioned for the Titan.

Most x102 die buyers don't buy the Titan though, they wait the 3-9 months and buy a Ti version. We could all be upset for nothing and we'll see a $800 TU102 based card appear in early 2019, but given the name chosen for this card and the pricing of RTX 2080 that doesn't seem likely. If you were a 980 Ti owner looking to upgrade in the fall of 2016 you could pick the $1200 Titan X, but most were sure a cheaper 1080 Ti was incoming so there wasn't a huge outcry. Now if you're a 1080 Ti owner, it appears you can either shell out $1200 (or possible $1000 if prices ever reach MSRP) for a 2080 Ti, or skip upgrading until 7nm.

 

[PeterScott]

Hopefully in 2020+ AMD/Intel will have a Ryzen moment with NVIDIA and catch up but NVIDIA is really a juggernaut and executes well so I'm not going to hold my breath.

I definitely have my fingers crossed that AMD has a good GPU update, and Intel comes up with something credible, in 2020, to make this something of a 3 way race.

But really, much like with RAM, I don't see any of the players showing any interest in fighting it out on price. There were no price battles between NV/AMD with GTX 1080/1070/1060 and AMD Vega 64/56/RX series. They picked their prices and just stayed their (or went up because of mining).

 

[Head1985]

Well i like Turing Its similar to maxwell.New architecture, RT, DLSS.But WTF those prices!!!
Lets compare Maxwell vs Turing at launch.
GTX970-330USD reference And 350USD best AIB at launch(msi gaming)
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_970_Gaming/
RTX2070-600USD reference And 650USD best AIB(nobody Will sell msi gaming Bellow 600usd)
970 to 2070 pretty much double Price from Maxwell to Turing.

980TI-650usd reference And 680usd best AIB https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_980_Ti_Gaming/
2080ti-1200usd reference And 1250usd++ best AIB
980ti to 2080ti again pretty much double Price.

 

[PeterScott]

Most x102 die buyers don't buy the Titan though, they wait the 3-9 months and buy a Ti version. We could all be upset for nothing and we'll see a $800 TU102 based card appear in early 2019, but given the name chosen for this card and the pricing of RTX 2080 that doesn't seem likely. If you were a 980 Ti owner looking to upgrade in the fall of 2016 you could pick the $1200 Titan X, but most were sure a cheaper 1080 Ti was incoming so there wasn't a huge outcry. Now if you're a 1080 Ti owner, it appears you can either shell out $1200 (or possible $1000 if prices ever reach MSRP) for a 2080 Ti, or skip upgrading until 7nm.

IMO there is no point getting upset now, over something that Might or Might not happen in the future.

For the Early adopters who buy things like Titan X I don't see any difference.

For those who would never pay Titan prices, there is only a small difference. In either case you are waiting. Only the future can tell how long.

But I also recognize that getting outraged on forums, is a popular pass time, and NVidia provided outrage fodder with the name change.

 

[maddie]

I definitely have my fingers crossed that AMD has a good GPU update, and Intel comes up with something credible, in 2020, to make this something of a 3 way race.

But really, much like with RAM, I don't see any of the players showing any interest in fighting it out on price. There were no price battles between NV/AMD with GTX 1080/1070/1060 and AMD Vega 64/56/RX series. They picked their prices and just stayed their (or went up because of mining).

Are you so forgetful of even recent history? Don't you know that the RX 470 was going for ~ $150 just before the mining boom? How is it possible to say there were no price battles?

Using your argument posted here, just reinforces for me, that the only goal is to argue for arguing sake.

 

[crisium]

"Nvidia has allegedly taken a hard stance against a sponsored streamer and influencer from India for expressing his opinion about preordering hardware....
they gave many reasons why they were against preordering hardware without real world benchmarks by reviewers.

According to Rohin Bhaumik this was considered "improper conduct" and his entire gaming rig he had received as an Nvidia sponsorship had to be returned.""

Full article below from [H]:

https://www.hardocp.com/news/2018/0...ship_for_stance_against_preordering_hardware/

 

[sze5003]

"Nvidia has allegedly taken a hard stance against a sponsored streamer and influencer from India for expressing his opinion about preordering hardware....
they gave many reasons why they were against preordering hardware without real world benchmarks by reviewers.

According to Rohin Bhaumik this was considered "improper conduct" and his entire gaming rig he had received as an Nvidia sponsorship had to be returned.""

Full article below from [H]:

https://www.hardocp.com/news/2018/0...ship_for_stance_against_preordering_hardware/

I saw that but I don't see an issue with them asking him to return it seeing as he was selected to be a sponsor for them. You wouldn't want someone that sponsors your company to do anything that would detriment sales.

I agree with his logic 100% though. Why are people preordering without any info he is right about that.

 

[TheF34RChannel]

"Nvidia has allegedly taken a hard stance against a sponsored streamer and influencer from India for expressing his opinion about preordering hardware....
they gave many reasons why they were against preordering hardware without real world benchmarks by reviewers.

According to Rohin Bhaumik this was considered "improper conduct" and his entire gaming rig he had received as an Nvidia sponsorship had to be returned.""

Full article below from [H]:

https://www.hardocp.com/news/2018/0...ship_for_stance_against_preordering_hardware/

What's the point of this post other than trying to make them look bad?

 

[maddie]

What's the point of this post other than trying to make them look bad?

lets see if an argument can be made.

IF, these 20xx cards are the greatest thing since sliced bread, then the preorder folks will end up satisfied and as soon as reviews are out, the herd stampedes to purchase.
IF the reviews, on the other hand are not as fantastic as we're being led to believe, then, at least they caught some.

To be honest, I can't quite understand the push for preorders if you have such a great product. It's not like Nvidia has a cash flow problem. Why the rush? Suspicious at least. Malicious at worst.

 

[crisium]

Oh, sorry if it didn't clearly say it, but they were discussing preorders for RTX cards. I think it's a good complimentary piece with Tomshardware's earlier linked article about enthusiastically encouraging preordering.

 

[PeterScott]

Are you so forgetful of even recent history? Don't you know that the RX 470 was going for ~ $150 just before the mining boom? How is it possible to say there were no price battles?

Using your argument posted here, just reinforces for me, that the only goal is to argue for arguing sake.

No need to get personal. Instead of making up and assigning motives to me, how about you just stick to the facts?

You are aware, that before mining, all GPU prices dropped over time? And the RX470 was likely to drop more than most since it was pointed out in reviews that it was too close in price to the $200 MSRP RX480 4GB. So this $180 MSRP GPU hitting $150 in the pre mining days is hardly a sign of healthy price competition, more like repositioning within the brand and normal decline over time.

It's just my observation that no company wants to compete on price, and pretty much none of them would try to start a price war.

So you get things like multiple RAM companies all jacking up prices 100% on commodity products.

If margins are fat in GPUs and AMD releases a great card, I expect they will try their very best to price just like NVidia does, to also get those sweet margins.

 

[DooKey]

I wonder what % of preorder volume is attributable to scalpers? I know a lot of people buy a ton of preorders because they know they can flip them for a decent profit on ebay

Does it matter? Nvidia is selling the cards. The fact that folks will pay the inflated scalper price is a tribute to Nvidia and their ownership of the high end graphics business.

Nvidia is a money printing machine.

 

[tviceman]

If margins are fat in GPUs and AMD releases a great card, I expect they will try their very best to price just like NVidia does, to also get those sweet margins.

Of course margins will be fat. But the larger question to ask is: will the exorbitantly higher prices for video cards push existing PC gamers away to consoles and simultaneously keep new PC gamers from entering the market? I think the answer to this question is probably yes. Like many other level-headed owners of high end or enthusiast cards (I own a GTX 1070) there is no way in hell I'm going to pay for a GTX 2080 or GTX 2080 TI. If the GTX 2070 is only 35% faster than a GTX 1070, there is no way I'm paying $500 for that upgrade. The short term gains from dramatically higher prices undermines the consumer industry, as a whole. AMD will likely continue to play counter to Nvidia's high priced strategy, although I'm sure they will raise prices too (just not nearly as much).

With how large the dies have grown with Turing, I fully expect AMD to be able to compete in perf/mm2 in games that don't use ray tracing. If AMD can release Navi or whatever is coming up next within the next 6 months from now, they will be in a ripe position to reap some major gains in market share EVEN if they raise prices (a little bit) as well.

Everyone keeps saying the market determines the price. If Nvidia isn't careful, they will destroy the market they rely on the most.

 

[DooKey]

I saw that but I don't see an issue with them asking him to return it seeing as he was selected to be a sponsor for them. You wouldn't want someone that sponsors your company to do anything that would detriment sales.

I agree with his logic 100% though. Why are people preordering without any info he is right about that.

It's actually very simple. The people spending the money on the new Ti want the best card they can get. At this point in time there's no doubt the new Ti will be the fastest card you can buy for $1200. This card isn't for people that would never spend that on a video card and it isn't for a person who counts $/FPS. What's so hard to understand?

 

[DooKey]

Snip...

If margins are fat in GPUs and AMD releases a great card, I expect they will try their very best to price just like NVidia does, to also get those sweet margins.

That's exactly what they did with Vega FE and Vega 64. How soon some forget.