Nvidia ,Rtx2080ti,2080,2070, information thread. Reviews and prices September 14.

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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Nope - try again. 1080 Ti tanks hard on minimum frame rates across the board when AA is enabled (ya know the metric that affects smooth playability? Minimum framerates. Quit focusing on average or peak - those generally mean little.)

No bragging here, no bragging needed. nVidia will sell every 2080 Ti they make - none of that makes me special - a fish in the sea.

But by all means, drag your useless banter on for another 100 pages complaining about prices. You won't change a single thing by doing so. But please continue your diatribes of futility.

I'll be enjoying blistering 4K performance.

Are you intentionally being ignorant here? Blanket statements again. You didn’t even negate anything I said at all. I specifically said depending on the game and the amount of AA applied. FXAA is basically free for example. You might think it sucks but it is still a form of AA. Nobody said anything about putting huge amounts of MSAA on at 4K. If that’s what you assumed there is nothing to discuss because you are intentionally trying to justify your purchase before you even have it in your hands. Not to mention MSAA is not supported in a majority of titles these days.
 
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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
I'm not really understanding this discussion about anti-aliasing. For the most part, anti aliasing is free or near free, as it's usually TAA or FXAA, something post process. Multisample anti aliasing isn't supported by many games, and if we're talking about DLSS, well, it's not going to be supported by a whole lot of games either, at least at first.



TAA in Fallout 4, for example, is costing you a few FPS, like 2-3% of your performance, and it's by far the most common form of AA these days.

This is exactly what I was saying and again I never said anything about MSAA.
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
14,184
626
126
Looks like the 2080ti will be a decent card for 4k by those videocardz benches since I do want to go to 4k soon. I ended up ordering the evga ftw3 model on b&h. It's backordered though and should be available Oct 20th.
 

Brahmzy

Senior member
Jul 27, 2004
584
28
91
Looks like the 2080ti will be a decent card for 4k by those videocardz benches since I do want to go to 4k soon. I ended up ordering the evga ftw3 model on b&h. It's backordered though and should be available Oct 20th.
Nice that card is going to be a BEAST.
The cooler is massive. Hopefully it’ll allow us some pretty low noise performance at load.
 

Brahmzy

Senior member
Jul 27, 2004
584
28
91
blah blah blah
Do some research. The reviews are all out there. Look at minimum frame rate dips on the 1080 Ti at 4K with the eye candy on. Pull your blinders off. This is not news, but known fact. 2080 Ti will raise the minimum frame rate floor significantly over 1080 Ti. Duh!
But keep posting...
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
14,184
626
126
Nice that card is going to be a BEAST.
The cooler is massive. Hopefully it’ll allow us some pretty low noise performance at load.
I've always liked the ftw editions. I have a 1080ti rog strix oc edition now but I didn't want to spend the $15-600 for the 2080ti model and it's not available yet.

Later this year I hope to find a nice 4k monitor to go with it. I need something that's 32 inches for my desk and I'm going to miss having gsync. I could easily get the ultra sharp 27 inch Dell 4k monitor but I have the Dell 27 1440p gsync version now. I heard 27 inches won't be a noticeable difference in 4k but I see a lot of 4k monitors with the 27 being the norm.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
Good move. It's what you do if you want to be on the bleeding edge of graphics technology. Which one did you order?
Cant remember. Lol. Some "cheap" model. Ordered a 2080 too. Dont know what i will keep. Depends on perf and power. I keep my computer in a closet and even open its not excactly ideal. Should hopefully come 10 oct. So i will have time to read reviews and decide.

And yeaa looking forward for the RT in bf5.
 

happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
14,387
480
126
Even the OP stayed out of his own thread until he could find something positive to add

No ,I'm smart, I wait for actuall reviewer benchmarks before I form an opinion.
As far as price, I have a decent job, I don't really care about that too much, $1000 is not gonna break the bank. My other hobby, my jeep has cost me 4x that this year.

Most posts I see are pure PERSONAL opinions, hard to argue with that.
 

Kenmitch

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,505
2,249
136
No ,I'm smart, I wait for actuall reviewer benchmarks before I form an opinion.
As far as price, I have a decent job, I don't really care about that too much, $1000 is not gonna break the bank. My other hobby, my jeep has cost me 4x that this year.

Most posts I see are pure PERSONAL opinions, hard to argue with that.

Judging by posting history I find the above quote amusing to say the least.
 

mohit9206

Golden Member
Jul 2, 2013
1,381
511
136
Looks like the 2080ti will be a decent card for 4k by those videocardz benches since I do want to go to 4k soon. I ended up ordering the evga ftw3 model on b&h. It's backordered though and should be available Oct 20th.
But 1080ti is already a decent card for 4K if one doesn't use the highest settings. 2080Ti will be a little bit better (apparently 45% better) but if that's worth extra $600 then go for it.
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
14,184
626
126
But 1080ti is already a decent card for 4K if one doesn't use the highest settings. 2080Ti will be a little bit better (apparently 45% better) but if that's worth extra $600 then go for it.
Yes unfortunately I've been spoiled by cranking everything to the highest since I've been on 1440p with my 1080ti.

I still have a lot of time to cancel the order since it won't be out until October 20th. It will be a while too until I start looking into 4k monitors too.
 

Malogeek

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2017
1,390
778
136
yaktribe.org
I'm not really understanding this discussion about anti-aliasing. For the most part, anti aliasing is free or near free, as it's usually TAA or FXAA, something post process.
Post-process AA methods aren't very good compared to methods like TXAA and MSAA, the former being the better solution if the blur could be reduced by DLSS if that's even possible.

TAA in Fallout 4, for example, is costing you a few FPS, like 2-3% of your performance, and it's by far the most common form of AA these days.
FO4 is notoriously CPU bound, especially at 1080p. The 980ti has a lot of grunt left over to process simple TAA or FXAA. Terrible example.
 

IllogicalGlory

Senior member
Mar 8, 2013
934
346
136
Post-process AA methods aren't very good compared to methods like TXAA and MSAA, the former being the better solution if the blur could be reduced by DLSS if that's even possible.
Few games support TXAA and MSAA.
FO4 is notoriously CPU bound, especially at 1080p. The 980ti has a lot of grunt left over to process simple TAA or FXAA. Terrible example.
It's a GPU settings tweak guide from NVIDIA running at 120 FPS (on a mere i7-4790). Doubt it's CPU bound. The entire game is not CPU bound, just certain areas. Do you have any example of TAA giving a big performance hit?
 
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StinkyPinky

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2002
6,832
880
126
Honestly, I don't find those FFXV benchmarks that impressive. Sure it would be pretty good if the prices remained the same, but with the enormous price hike.....nope.

The ray tracing looks good, but it's first generation and you never buy first gen tech.
 
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Malogeek

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2017
1,390
778
136
yaktribe.org
Few games support TXAA and MSAA.
Guess it depends on the games people play. Many support one or the other from my perspective.
It's a GPU settings tweak guide from NVIDIA running at 120 FPS. Doubt it's CPU bound. Do you have any example of TAA giving a big performance hit?
Nope and I really can't be bothered finding anything, it's an older method rarely used anymore and the blur it introduces is terrible. I don't know why Nvidia are trying to sell DLSS compared to TAA. But this is the same company that were selling us on Quincunx.
 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
2,605
1,540
136
Guess it depends on the games people play. Many support one or the other from my perspective.

Nope and I really can't be bothered finding anything, it's an older method rarely used anymore and the blur it introduces is terrible. I don't know why Nvidia are trying to sell DLSS compared to TAA. But this is the same company that were selling us on Quincunx.

TAA is one the more modern AA methods, and seems to be one of the most popular AA methods these days because it is cheap to implement, and can look good while standing still. It turns into a blurry mess if you move much.

Google almost any new AAA PC game and "anti aliasing", and you will get a litany of complaints about blurry AA, and you will find most games only support these cheap post process AA modes now (TAA and FXAA).

Comparing to TAA gives NVidia both a popular point of comparison, and an easier target to match. I mean if your point of comparison is already known for blurry results, it makes it easier to sell your lower resolution up-scaled option, as looking similar.
 
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Malogeek

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2017
1,390
778
136
yaktribe.org
Comparing to TAA gives NVidia an easier target to match. I mean if your point of comparison is already known for blurry results, it makes it easier to sell your lower resolution up-scaled option, as looking similar.
Yeah this DLSS is looking more and more like yet another marketing bulletpoint. I'm not very excited about a TAA target. The other version of it sounds like it's far higher quality but likely too high performance hit.
 

tajoh111

Senior member
Mar 28, 2005
305
323
136
Does any of you remember if we ever had before a negative perf/$ in a new GPU release ??

Because according to NV slides, RTX2080 is 43% faster than GTX1080 but,
From Newegg prices the GTX 1080 start at $480 with cheapest RTX2080 at $749 or 56% more expensive.

The 7970 and 7870 definitely had a worse price to performance vs their outgoing last gen.

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_7970/30.html

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_7850_HD_7870/28.html

The 7870 was horrifically bad offender. AMD was charging $350 for a 213mm2 die on a cheap node(vs the 231mm2 Polaris which ranged from $200/240 on a much more expensive node).

Looking at the above chart, the 6870 had 67% better price to performance than the 7870. The 7970 was pretty bad as well having the same price to performance as the gtx 580 which was Nvidia's worst card as far as price to performance while having a 520mm2 die size.

The 7970 was 351mm2 die and AMD was charging $550s for it, vs the 6970's $369(389mm2) or the 5870 $399 price(331mm2). This comparison is actually favorable to AMD because this is using initial street pricing of those products. Not the EOL or clearance pricing.

AMD's initial pricing for the 7970/7870 was the trigger of the massive price inflation of smalls chips. AMD which is usually the value company which keeps pricing in check, decided to capitalize on a 3 month window before nvidia released their cards. AMD took the savings which comes from the shrinkage of dies with a new nodal process and put everything in their pocket and charged a big premium for their new products.

Nvidia followed suit after their chips beat AMDs, thus pricing their chips relatives to their competition and we have the story we have today.

Competition is important to have on both sides to keep pricing in check whether it is AMD or Nvidia. Nvidia needs competition to lower their pricing, however unlike AMD's initial 7970/7870 pricing, they won't get punished for pricing their cards high because AMD is likely to release anything in the consumer market until 2nd half 2019 which makes it the smarter strategic decision compared to the 7970/7870's initial pricing. What impacts this further is AMD used up much of their initial fanbases patients for their product with Vega. It has shaken consumer confidence in waiting for AMD. i.e a 30-40% performance jump from fury X to rx vega 64 after 26 months(16months after the competition) has shaken peoples faith for AMD producing a good GPU, particularly with RX Vega not doing much to the price to performance of cards because of high cost of production requiring limited rebates initially to be sold at 399 and 499 and their true pricing being 499/599 initially. Vega was a bad launch for AMD which has opened up an opportunity for Nvidia to be greedy.

Nvidia knows AMD doesn't have anything new for products for atleast 10months in the consumer space and they know AMD can't get into a price war because of high cost of production of Vega products. I.e dropping down to 399/299 for Rx Vega is not an option for AMD because of their high cost of production(dropping down to those prices would create a loss). Proof of this is the discontinuation of fury X in the consumer market. After the 1070/1080 launched, AMD quickly dropped the fury x and fury off the market rather then attempt to sell the Fury x at 399/299 because it was below floor pricing. This was very painful for AMD because Fury X was only on the market for 9 months which for a cash strapped company like AMD meant little chance to recover R and D.

Launching a Vega 20 is not much of an option either because as I have mentioned earlier supply and potential cannibalization of existing products.

In addition the performance given by AMD was 40% increase in performance or 50% reduction in power(not both as indicated by Wizard of techpowerup), given this is likely tflop performance and AMD is likely to reduce power consumption and reduce that number down to a 30% increase in performance/ 30 reduction in power, means this translates into 20-25% increase in actual gaming performance because of bottlenecks associated with the Vega architecture. This translates into maybe a $600 pricing point in today's markets once rtx is on the market. This is competitive towards Nvidia pricing but not so much to Vega pricing. This is because price to performance decreases as we go up the product stack. Add Vega 20's 16gb of HBM2 and your looking at rx vega 64 needing a pricing of 399 to be considering a serious option. At $499, the 25% performance advantage/double memory would make people lean towards the Vega 20 at $600.

Worse yet, Vega 20 might not make money at that price point. Another 2 stacks of HBM2 would probably cost another $100 given it is the most expensive memory at the moment and was 150 dollars in 2017 still for the 2 stacks on Vega 64. And then their is the wafer pricing.

http://caxapa.ru/thumbs/598000/WP_handel-jones.pdf

The $4800 figure being thrown around is the number for the raw cost for TSMC. The actual price for companies like Nvidia or AMD is near double this. These cost are less now because some time has passed but your still looking at 7k for a wafer. And here is the kicker,.

https://www.icknowledge.com/news/Technology and Cost Trends at Advanced Nodes - Revised.pdf

7nm wafers cost double what 14/16nm finfet wafers cost as seen in page 8. 7nm are at an ultra premium price at this points because of the maturity of the process meaning it would not surprise me to wafers at 16-20k a piece. What this means is AMD would not be making money at 600 and would have now performed a self inflicted wound on themselves because Rx Vega sales loss from a lower selling price, would mean AMD would be making less money with Vega 20 on the consumer market.

As a result, Vega 20 has been repeated stated to be reserved for the professional market where it can be sold for 3 to 5k. In the professional market, Vega's 20 competition(8k to 10k Quadros/Teslas) allows it to be priced high which allows it to be profitable even with the high cost of production. Taking a good Vega 20 die which can be sold for thousands and re-purposing it into a $600 rtx/gtx 1080 ti competition is simply not an intelligent business move which is why AMD is not doing it.
 
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maddogmcgee

Senior member
Apr 20, 2015
385
310
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The 7970 and 7870 definitely had a worse price to performance vs their outgoing last gen.

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_7970/30.html

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_7850_HD_7870/28.html

The 7870 was horrifically bad offender. AMD was charging $350 for a 213mm2 die on a cheap node(vs the 231mm2 Polaris which ranged from $200/240 on a much more expensive node).

Looking at the above chart, the 6870 had 67% better price to performance than the 7870. The 7970 was pretty bad as well having the same price to performance as the gtx 580 which was Nvidia's worst card as far as price to performance while having a 520mm2 die size.

The 7970 was 351mm2 die and AMD was charging $550s for it, vs the 6970's $369(389mm2) or the 5870 $399 price(331mm2). This comparison is actually favorable to AMD because this is using initial street pricing of those products. Not the EOL or clearance pricing.

AMD's initial pricing for the 7970/7870 was the trigger of the massive price inflation of smalls chips. AMD which is usually the value company which keeps pricing in check, decided to capitalize on a 3 month window before nvidia released their cards. AMD took the savings which comes from the shrinkage of dies with a new nodal process and put everything in their pocket and charged a big premium for their new products.

Nvidia followed suit after their chips beat AMDs, thus pricing their chips relatives to their competition and we have the story we have today.

The counter point to your comment is that the 7970 has aged incredibly well. I was using it for 6 plus months after my 970 blew and it pwrformed rather well at 2k in many games. It's still a very decent 1080p card my my wife.features that cost a lot th b like the extra ram it had over Nvidia offerings really helped it long ter.
 
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tajoh111

Senior member
Mar 28, 2005
305
323
136
The counter point to your comment is that the 7970 has aged incredibly well. I was using it for 6 plus months after my 970 blew and it pwrformed rather well at 2k in many games. It's still a very decent 1080p card my my wife.features that cost a lot th b like the extra ram it had over Nvidia offerings really helped it long ter.

If your going to use future performance as a selling point to raise the MSRP of your card, I got a bridge to sell you. Initial performance and pricing is what sets product expectations which is why this launch is so polarizing. Nvidia is trying to sell us on features and performance we might see in the futures. It's pretty bad and requires a leap of faith but they are doing a better job than AMD since they have a list of games which include and will use the technology in the near future.

Future gains are not remotely a guarantee and as we can see with GCN cards as of late, they really haven't gained too much ground vs pascal.

Ultimately what people want is performance now and not with a special mode like DLSS. Most gamers kind of see it as bull and are right to be skeptical of the future implementation of these features.
 
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arandomguy

Senior member
Sep 3, 2013
556
183
116
The counter point to your comment is that the 7970 has aged incredibly well. I was using it for 6 plus months after my 970 blew and it pwrformed rather well at 2k in many games. It's still a very decent 1080p card my my wife.features that cost a lot th b like the extra ram it had over Nvidia offerings really helped it long ter.

But what you say also highlights the issue of solely relying on more raw performance gains as the selling point.

This really highlights an interesting issue in that when people ask it's often said that the 1060/580 is already more than enough for 1080p for current titles. So how enticing is more raw performance on existing titles in terms of drawing upgrades? Sure they could drive the price point further down but that type of race to the bottom is something you'd want to avoid from a business perspective.
 
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