NVIDIA vs. AMD *POLL ADDED*

[apoppin]

i know i don't speak for anyone but myself. i also think some of you feel similar to how i do, from our PMs - that it is exhausting to wade through mounds of angry personal opinion and facts that are "spun" to influence our informed decision about what to upgrade.

Many times an innocent question will turn into a flame fest or an intelligent observation will get drowned-out by the clamor of fanboys trying to shout louder than the others, as though the actual 'number' of opinions makes something "right". It used to be this way and it appears it is returning to chaos.

i would like everyone here that cares, to weigh in and see what we can do to have calm, intelligent discussions at ATF Video. i think this is very "on topic".


i'd like to hear your opinions. For me, i'd like to get *less involved* in the heated debates and concentrate on the more helpful aspects of Video Forum - especially benchmarking which has become somewhat of a passion for me. i really DO think NVIDIA really IS "the performance leader". i have no problem with saying that as long as i can ALSO say that AMD has always provided me with an excellent "alternative" as the budget solution with no disadvantages to this practical gamer.

So personally, while i *admire* GX2 and would love to get my grubby mitts on one to compare with my own [to be coming] Tri-FrankenFire, i also think it is priced to high for an interim solution. So buy whatever the heck you feel you need to. i gave my opinion. i don't need to go over and over, round and round, saying essentially the *same* thing to each other - and escalating the negativity that is building again in Video Forum.

You guys *know* that we are one of the top 3 Video Forums on the 'net, don't you? We are even "attacked" by other tech sites and they will notice and point to our loss of credibility. i don't want to see that.

And you also need to realize that we are the target - by all the major manufacturers - for Viral marketing. Let me give you a little example - Let's say that we "influence" 2,000 sales of GX2 - we are actually affecting NVIDIA's bottom line by over 1 million dollars. And think that some of us are fans of either company and we also influence our friends and acquaintances - for many years and many more to come. And perhaps you should be aware that some of this confusion is deliberately caused by some that are jealous of us.

Now, you should know that Focus Groups of AMD and NVIDIA are supposed to be HELPFUL! ... not tear to the forums apart. And i make a special appeal to them - whoever they are - to not foul our nest here. it is to ALL of our advantages to have sane discussions here that will *educate*

EDIT:

What do you think of splitting Video into 2 forums?
- i don't have ANY idea if they would actually do it ... but

1) Part One is *exactly* like this one - but with little to no moderation - "General Video Discussions" .. maybe the 'what should i buy' can also go here, no idea.

2) Part Two is a "Technical" Video Forum where there is no flaming, no price comparisons, no snide remarks or insinuations - just a in-depth flamless discussion of the HW. Perhaps it could be *flexible* about what is discussed - but it would be heavily moderated

*(2)* is to basically leave it alone and ENFORCE the rules with more moderation, ala Keys' comments

2nd EDIT

There are more suggestions .. ONE more (3) is to create a new "P&N style" new Tech Forum for ALL the hot topics - lightly moderated. ANY topic in ANY tech forum will be moved OUT of ANY Tech Forum when it gets "HOT" and the participants will be automatically notified by email [as now, when a topic is moved] so the intense debating can continue and the rest of us wouldn't even notice.

ANOTHER idea - (4) - is a single stickied "Hot Topic" thread at the top of Video for "in-you-face" P&N type discussions for those that love it - and it would be largely UNmoderated - like a "pressure release" where 2 or members members can really go face-to-face up-close and real "personal"-like

the OTHER 3 - [5,6, and 7] - are by justly - and can be implemented easily right NOW with no real "changes" but an expansion and clarification of what we have.

1. Make a thread similar to the one Blain made for the "General hardware" forum that applies only to video cards

2. Convince the moderators to aggressively lock threads when the "topic title" is obviously intended to slander a specific card/brand by not accurately conveying a problem (a warning could be given to the OP first to allow them to edit the "topic title").

3. Request that "focus group members" refrain from posting negative information about a competitors products (unless they actually own the product they are posting negative information about, or they are only elaborating about a problem on said product that is already being discussed in the thread). IMO "focus group members" should make every attempt to abide by the saying "if you have nothing good to say, don't say anything at all" (after all a good product should sell itself, without the need to discredit the competition).

EDIT: i made a poll ... and i just had to edit "view results" to more accurately reflect it IS a vote "view results/no opinion"

Sorry


EDIT - Thanks to the powers that be that revived this topic. Mahalo
i also edited it to remove a poll that probably belongs best in PFI - basically IS being discussed in PFI - do not mention it here, please!

 

[bryanW1995]

first of all, I want to say that AMD IS THE BEST GRPHX COMPANY EVER AND IT RULZ!!!! I don't agree with fanboy-type statements. Well, unless they support my current flavor of the month, which is 8800gt. Oh, that's not made by amd, is it? Crap, there goes another t-shirt.

Apoppin, anybody with a special name for his crossfire setup NEEDS to spend a lot of time benchmarking. I must say that I'm tempted to get a 3870x2 for tri-fire just to compare them with your 3870x2/2900xt setup.

I don't think that it's exhausting to wade through a flame-fest unless I'm the one getting flamed. I find that the best way to avoid getting flamed is to insult everyone else pretty much equally. Your problem is that you focus your ire on the stupid people only. Go after rational people sometimes, it keeps everyone scared of you and on their toes when you're around. I mean, every now and then you need to say something like: "bfg10k, the only thing "ultra" about your 8800 is the fact that my 1950 pro pwns it" or maybe "derek, your forum is so lame, I only stick around because of the benefits". Um, I don't usually actually make statements like that myself of course, but it would be fun to watch SOMEBODY do it...maybe wreckage or rollo...or keys...then we could have a mod-fight...ok, I need some sleep...

 

[JPB]

I have to agree with apoppin here. When he did his GTS vs. XT review.....I really paid attention to it. It was the reason I bought the GTS.

And I would also like to see civilized conversations here. It has gotten old to see a new thread about a upcoming new graphics card, and all you really see is flaming. I don't even read them when they are like that.

For some reason, That old commercial with Hulk Hogan in it and deodorant just popped in my head. When he says.... anything else would be uncivilized.

But yea....just buy the card you like and let it be done then discuss it.

But for what it's worth. The only graphics card threads I really read for information is either by apoppin, BFG10K or keys. And I will admit, I am an ATI fan although I have even begun to read nRollo's posts.

I was getting ready to pull the trigger on a 9600GT. Because it has amazing performance for the price. But I decided to wait a few more days to see if the 3870 does indeed drop at or below $159.

 

[Magusigne]

There really isn't too many fights I've seen on this forum..its because everyone knows AMD/ATI have been getting the floor wiped by Intel/nVidia..so it isn't much to argue...even AMD/ATI fanboi's like myself know this. Maybe when we see better competition we'll get more "heated" debates.

(For the record the ATI x2's are pretty amazing at their pricepoint.)

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Powernick50
There really isn't too many fights I've seen on this forum..its because everyone knows AMD/ATI have been getting the floor wiped by Intel/nVidia..so it isn't much to argue...even AMD/ATI fanboi's like myself know this. Maybe when we see better competition we'll get more "heated" debates.

(For the record the ATI x2's are pretty amazing at their pricepoint.)

so far .. i 'get' that one poster - so far - sorta agrees with me that there should be more *constructive* educational discussions and two more don't mind the flaming .

i agree that NVIDIA has the *top spot* now - but there are "alternatives" [AMD has seen to that] but even when ATi clearly had the top spot, there was serious flaming - even back with 9700p>x850xt .. so that doesn't look like it

Should i make some kind of poll? - i am at a loss for wording it
[if you can believe it]

what i guess i am asking is: "how do we balance the forum with more credible constructive discussions"?"

there will always be flames and fud

 

[JPB]

Originally posted by: Powernick50
There really isn't too many fights I've seen on this forum..its because everyone knows AMD/ATI have been getting the floor wiped by Intel/nVidia..so it isn't much to argue...even AMD/ATI fanboi's like myself know this. Maybe when we see better competition we'll get more "heated" debates.

(For the record the ATI x2's are pretty amazing at their pricepoint.)

I will agree with you here. I prefer ATI myself like I said. And the X2 is a great card. Which I also considered. But what would be the point, when I could get the same performance out of (2) 3870's at $159 a piece for a price of around $320 ? Of course, if the price drop is true.

And yea, right now Nvidia right now is leading performance and has for a long time until the X2 came. But now we have the GX2 which now leads. Thats the way things are and will always be. So why say one is better than the rest ? It really does not matter which card is better....it matters what card is better for the consumer that is purchasing it. :thumbsup:

 

[imported_thefonz]

I think the problem lies more with the fact that your discussing video cards, we need something to spice it up.

Sex and or violence seem to work well for the news media.

We need sexy video cards shooting guns at each other.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: thefonz
I think the problem lies more with the fact that your discussing video cards, we need something to spice it up.

why?

i know we are here also for "entertainment" ... but this is a tech forum
-we have OT for sax and violins ... and P&N for those who really want to get in someone's face about something.

Why spill over chaos into Video?

i KNOW i have also done it
- and i am putting the brakes on myself

the needs of the one, ya know
-verses the needs of the many

this forum is for LEARNING about Video cards. Should we split off another forum? A P&N-type video forum where anything goes?

i'm serious. i would like to discuss Graphics without all the "static"
-like they do at B3D [if you must

] - but i'd hate to go there to discuss white papers about shader o/c'ing, if you know what i mean. This forum can have it *all*

 

[ArchAngel777]

IMO, the only way to have to have a civil conversation is to really crack down and tighten the rules here in this particular category. There are too many personal attacks that technically don't violate the TOS, but still are clear attacks, just subtle. I would vote for very strict moderation here, any hint at a personal attack is called out as well as any hostility or attempts to talk down to someone.

But really, this doesn't solve the issue. The fact is, the web is full of people who allow their anominity to shield their pathetic behavior. Most people would never talk to you in person the way they address you in a forum. Why? Because people only can do it behind a keyboard when no one knows who you are. That is lame. IMO.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
IMO, the only way to have to have a civil conversation is to really crack down and tighten the rules here in this particular category. There are too many personal attacks that technically don't violate the TOS, but still are clear attacks, just subtle. I would vote for very strict moderation here, any hint at a personal attack is called out as well as any hostility or attempts to talk down to someone.

But really, this doesn't solve the issue. The fact is, the web is full of people who allow their anominity to shield their pathetic behavior. Most people would never talk to you in person the way they address you in a forum. Why? Because people only can do it behind a keyboard when no one knows who you are. That is lame. IMO.

The first half of your post hinted a *solution* .. should we become like "Highly Technical"? NO flames! NO personal attacks!! NO insinuations!!!

http://forums.anandtech.com/ca...tid=50&flcache=6910525

it would not have so much traffic at first ... and perhaps they could find a way to "selectively" ban posters who show they don't 'belong' .. so that would require something *created* ...
... a New Video sub forum that allowed *anything* Video card related - a "P&N Video" for the posters who like that sort of thing

i dunno ... we need to give some good ideas to Administration, i think

 

[imported_thefonz]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: thefonz
I think the problem lies more with the fact that your discussing video cards, we need something to spice it up.

why?

i know we are here also for "entertainment" ... but this is a tech forum
-we have OT for sax and violins ... and P&N for those who really want to get in someone's face about something.

Why spill over chaos into Video?

i KNOW i have also done it
- and i am putting the brakes on myself

the needs of the one, ya know
-verses the needs of the many

this forum is for LEARNING about Video cards. Should we split off another forum? A P&N-type video forum where anything goes?

i'm serious. i would like to discuss Graphics without all the "static"
-like they do at B3D [if you must

] - but i'd hate to go there to discuss white papers about shader o/c'ing, if you know what i mean. This forum can have it *all*

It was a joke.

If anything this forum is too serious, In school i learned that that the classes I paid the most attention too, were fun and engaging, not preachy.

Getting in a serious discussion about shaders, texture units, performance, etc is not fun for me (and im guessing a good portion of the anand forums).

A civil conversation about video cards? Wake me up when the flames are flying and personal insults are rampant.

EDIT:

Another thing is the inherent problem with text communication. I can not display my sarcasm in the first post, but thinking about it more, I am dead serious that I want sexy video cards shooting guns at each other.

 

[Demoth]

I am also rooting for ATI and will show a bias to them simply because I want strong competition to keep GPU technology flowing at a fast pace.

As a consumer, I am not happy with Nvidia, but also agree they are the top right now for cost/performance. I actually just paid a Best Buy markup on a BFG 8800GT ($280) because I needed an immediate replacement for a 7900GT with the memory bug. Now I am finding if I OC the memory on my 8800GT above 920 I get lockups. Real nice. However, with the core easily at 730 on stock, it still offers more power then I need for anything I do. However, what looks to be an intentional hold back of driver performance technology for the 8800 series in order to get an initial burst of sales on the 9800 is starting to tick me off. Not really cool that I would have to go to 3rd party drivers released by weekend coders. These drivers kind of put a question mark on Nvidia's claim they need time to develop the 8800 drivers.

Fan boys from either side don't bother me. Even paid shills in forums don't bother me, they can provide useful info. What would bother me is misinformation from any official Anandtech source (reviews, articles or editorials), censorship or favortism.

Threads that become argumentative often also become filled with the most amount of detailed technical information. Posters 'attacking' other posters based on things they percieve skew their advise is helpful to others to make a more informed decision on what to believe. Sometimes this will lead to a flame fest of personal attacks back and forth, but I think it is important for people to be called out if others feel they are spreading disinformation. It is also important for people who might be branded unfairly to then be defended. But these occassional flames do help expose others for what they are.

Besides the mensa forum, I doubt you'll find any forum flame free unless it was so heavily moderated and censored, it wouldn't be worth using. Freedom of speech (to a reasonable extent) means you take the good with the bad.

Usually it is the Nvidia vs ATI topics that start seeing flames and I think just about every vid card forum is the same, again, unless moderated heavily. Often, these sites that moderate heavily also have a bias (usually to Nvidia) and the forums heavily reflect that. They are also the least respected forums despite having very low flame post counts.

In my opinion, a forum is a free for all (with limits) and it is up to the reader to filter out the garbage. However, any censorship of important information that can help a reader filter out garbage makes the forum almost useless.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: thefonz

If anything this forum is too serious, In school i learned that that the classes I paid the most attention too, were fun and engaging, not preachy.

Getting in a serious discussion about shaders, texture units, performance, etc is not fun for me (and im guessing a good portion of the anand forums).

A civil conversation about video cards? Wake me up when the flames are flying and personal insults are rampant.

EDIT:

Another thing is the inherent problem with text communication. I can not display my sarcasm in the first post, but thinking about it more, I am dead serious that I want sexy video cards shooting guns at each other.

Awesome the fonz

what do you think about leaving this forum - exactly as it is - flames and all intact - say whatever the hell you feel without worrying about some mod breathing down your back?
--and let US "technically oriented" guys have our *own* video forum where we discuss shader tweaking and architectural differences while studying IQ comparisons.

Perhaps it would be a very strictly moderated forum for the guys that don't give a crap about "NVIDIA vs. AMD Pr 'features'" and pricing. it could even be posting by 'invitation only' if they really want to attract the best graphics discussions on the 'net.

 

[Sind]

I seriously doubt any constuctive talk will take place here now that it is accepted on this board to let the focus groups run wild basically, heck a mod is even one. I don't care what you say but everything can be spinned by these guys. Look at the 8xQAA thread about the GX2, it was a good discussion until one of the focus group members brought up this comment :

"Lets assume you're right Tuteja and the 9800GX2 isn't not doing 8X AA well with it's superior paper specs, and it's not because the drivers are 1 day old and this just hasn't been addressed yet.

Can you show us which resolutions and games the 3870X2 offers playable framerates that the 9800GX2 doesn't so we can see why a person looking for the best single slot card would buy a so much slower 3870X2? "

Nothing but spin and marketing FUD, the 3870X2 is totally irrelevent to the discussion beyond comparing it's 8xAA numbers, if we are trying to discuss a GX2 8xQAA problem why is the 3870X2 and comsumer purchasing decisions suddenly brought into the thread? This is viral marketing despite the "focus group" moniker on anyones signature. It's not tolerated at other sites, why is it here?

 

[Demoth]

Also, when I talk about flaming being healthy, I am speaking of perceived factual statements that could be seen as personal insults. These can also help others decide if they should take advice from the targetted person.

Examples would be- "Dude, why should anyone believe you, your getting free gear from XXX to say this crap" or "STFU, arn't you the guy that gave wrong advice to so and so on the CPU forums?"

Personal insults unrelated to motives for advice or depth of knowledge should be censored and offenders banned.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Sind
I seriously doubt any constuctive talk will take place here now that it is accepted on this board to let the focus groups run wild basically, heck a mod is even one. I don't care what you say but everything can be spinned by these guys. Look at the 8xQAA thread about the GX2, it was a good discussion until one of the focus group members brought up this comment :

"Lets assume you're right Tuteja and the 9800GX2 isn't not doing 8X AA well with it's superior paper specs, and it's not because the drivers are 1 day old and this just hasn't been addressed yet.

Can you show us which resolutions and games the 3870X2 offers playable framerates that the 9800GX2 doesn't so we can see why a person looking for the best single slot card would buy a so much slower 3870X2? "

Nothing but spin and marketing FUD, the 3870X2 is totally irrelevent to the discussion beyond comparing it's 8xAA numbers, if we are trying to discuss a GX2 8xQAA problem why is the 3870X2 and comsumer purchasing decisions suddenly brought into the thread? This is viral marketing despite the "focus group" moniker on anyones signature. It's not tolerated at other sites, why is it here?

OK, the stated *purpose* of ALL "focus groups" is to be HELPFUL

that is what it is supposed to be. On OTHER forums it IS that way
[need i mention B3D again?]

Keys IS helpful ... he is everything that a focus group member should be. IMO he is beyond ANY reproach. However, he is a focus group member for less than a week so we haven't seen the positive results of his association with NVIDIA - yet! i am certain we will!

i think "something renegade" is just infecting our forum ... and i think it is an impossible task to fight it. So my idea [from the first few comments] is to create a "technical" video forum where there is ZERO "engagement" outside the RULES. Zero tolerance for BS or FUD and anyone that tries to bring it in are banned [only] from there.

 

[imported_thefonz]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: thefonz

If anything this forum is too serious, In school i learned that that the classes I paid the most attention too, were fun and engaging, not preachy.

Getting in a serious discussion about shaders, texture units, performance, etc is not fun for me (and im guessing a good portion of the anand forums).

A civil conversation about video cards? Wake me up when the flames are flying and personal insults are rampant.

EDIT:

Another thing is the inherent problem with text communication. I can not display my sarcasm in the first post, but thinking about it more, I am dead serious that I want sexy video cards shooting guns at each other.

Awesome the fonz

what do you think about leaving this forum - exactly as it is - flames and all intact - say whatever the hell you feel without worrying about some mod breathing down your back?
--and let US "technically oriented" guys have our *own* video forum where we discuss shader tweaking and architectural differences while studying IQ comparisons.

Perhaps it would be a very strictly moderated forum for the guys that don't give a crap about "NVIDIA vs. AMD Pr 'features'" and pricing. it could even be posting by 'invitation only' if they really want to attract the best graphics discussions on the 'net.

That'd be a dream come true. I've always wanted to be apart of sort of VIP club, sadly, the girls gone wild tour bus denied my application form. Apparently being a man is some sort of issue for them.

Please send my invitation ASAP so i can show you my "assets"

 

[Demoth]

Splitting the vid card forum into a highly technical flame free zone would draw all the official feedback and benchmarking results from Anandtech and eventually relegate this forum into nothing but a flame fest area. Eventually, this forum would die and you'd end up with a tightly censored vid card forum on Anandtech.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Demoth
Splitting the vid card forum into a highly technical flame free zone would draw all the official feedback and benchmarking results from Anandtech and eventually relegate this forum into nothing but a flame fest area. Eventually, this forum would die and you'd end up with a tightly censored vid card forum on Anandtech.

no, i don't think so ... this one could still have *some* moderation

P&N didn't die when it was split away from OT
[as i had hoped when i suggested its creation to "save" OT ]

*everything* would still get posted here .. links from the Technical side of Video to debate also. AND a slightly higher caliber of poster might be attracted to the tech part .. and very occasionally, the tech posters might want to also get down and dirty on 'this side'

All i am asking for is a "flame/FUD-free ZONE"

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: thefonz
I think the problem lies more with the fact that your discussing video cards, we need something to spice it up.

Sex and or violence seem to work well for the news media.

We need sexy video cards shooting guns at each other.

Better yet, what about a "GIANT" "LASER".


I want sharks with laser beams.

 

[Sylvanas]

Well I am in favour of making two forums, I think it would serve the community better as a whole. Recently I have seen more and more new people to the forum have their discussions derailed into feuding between people when all they needed was a simple answer not something that goes way over their head....that doesn't bode well for an "AT community'.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995

Originally posted by: thefonz
I think the problem lies more with the fact that your discussing video cards, we need something to spice it up.

Sex and or violence seem to work well for the news media.

We need sexy video cards shooting guns at each other.

Better yet, what about a "GIANT" "LASER".


I want sharks with laser beams.

Your posts just belong here

i know you want sharks .. would you settle for something else?

i want "fluff-free" ... and lasers - at least, controlled fusion preferred - to burn it up if it dares show itself
:sun:

 

[imported_thefonz]

Originally posted by: Sind
I seriously doubt any constuctive talk will take place here now that it is accepted on this board to let the focus groups run wild basically, heck a mod is even one. I don't care what you say but everything can be spinned by these guys. Look at the 8xQAA thread about the GX2, it was a good discussion until one of the focus group members brought up this comment :

"Lets assume you're right Tuteja and the 9800GX2 isn't not doing 8X AA well with it's superior paper specs, and it's not because the drivers are 1 day old and this just hasn't been addressed yet.

Can you show us which resolutions and games the 3870X2 offers playable framerates that the 9800GX2 doesn't so we can see why a person looking for the best single slot card would buy a so much slower 3870X2? "

Nothing but spin and marketing FUD, the 3870X2 is totally irrelevent to the discussion beyond comparing it's 8xAA numbers, if we are trying to discuss a GX2 8xQAA problem why is the 3870X2 and comsumer purchasing decisions suddenly brought into the thread? This is viral marketing despite the "focus group" moniker on anyones signature. It's not tolerated at other sites, why is it here?

Conclusion: No one likes a salesman. Especially when you know there a salesman, trying to pitch there marketing as peer advice.

I cannot relate too someone who gets there vid cards for free, because I have to work to buy a new vid card. What if the person does not even like vid cards and is just spewing propaganda for his paycheck. What if his real hobby is german shit porn?

Do I like politicians? F**k no, and focus groups are the same damn thing.

They have ruined product forum's everywhere by destroying the trust that people had in another's advice. I cannot tell who's actually getting paid or who's giving me actual advice.

For example, when i go to buy a car with my wife and I ask her what she thinks about it, DO I WANT THE SALESMAN STANDING RIGHT THERE TELLING ME ABOUT THE FREAKING HEATED SEAT AND HAS MORE HORSEPOWER THAN THE COMPETITION................no I do not.

/end rant.

Back, to the "serious" discussion about vid cards.

 

[covert24]

I agree. There is too much HOSTILITY!!

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: Sind
I seriously doubt any constuctive talk will take place here now that it is accepted on this board to let the focus groups run wild basically, heck a mod is even one. I don't care what you say but everything can be spinned by these guys. Look at the 8xQAA thread about the GX2, it was a good discussion until one of the focus group members brought up this comment :

"Lets assume you're right Tuteja and the 9800GX2 isn't not doing 8X AA well with it's superior paper specs, and it's not because the drivers are 1 day old and this just hasn't been addressed yet.

Can you show us which resolutions and games the 3870X2 offers playable framerates that the 9800GX2 doesn't so we can see why a person looking for the best single slot card would buy a so much slower 3870X2? "

Nothing but spin and marketing FUD, the 3870X2 is totally irrelevent to the discussion beyond comparing it's 8xAA numbers, if we are trying to discuss a GX2 8xQAA problem why is the 3870X2 and comsumer purchasing decisions suddenly brought into the thread? This is viral marketing despite the "focus group" moniker on anyones signature. It's not tolerated at other sites, why is it here?

If you want to call out a mod, be a man and do it. Are you saying that keys is somehow biased because he's a focus group member now? Do you want us to start calling him nKeysplayr??? Why don't you go read a few of his 10,000+ posts first n00b. All kidding aside, I probably have a little bit of an amd bias, but I'm not so blinded by affection that I can't see that the nvidia girl is way better looking and has better, um, "qualities" right now. Having ANYBODY other than rollo get inside nvidia info is good for us imho. Especially if keys also starts getting free crap so he can pass his old stuff on to his online buddies