nVidia's 6600 & 6200 PCI-E strategy - forward thinking or dead before it started?

[ToeJam13]

Hello All,

I'm on a quest to build a sub-$400 system as a gift this Christmas. So far, I think I've selected the right blend of components to give me some good bang without dipping too deep into old or substandard technology.

Here is my list so far:
AMD Semperon 3100+ (Socket 754, 256MB Cache, Retail Package) - $121
AOpen MK89-L (nForce3-150 Chipset, mATX Form, Realtek Gig-E) - $77
Corsair Value 512MB (DDR400 CAS-2.5 DIMM) - $73
Gigabyte GV-NX66128D (Geforce 6600, 128MB, 300/550MHz) - $130

Total Price.................................................US$401


Whoooaaa! That video card won't fit in that board! AGP mainboard, PCI-Express video card. Something strange is afoot at nVidia...

From a PR standpoint, I understand why nVidia wanted to get on the PCI-Express bandwagon. That company from the Great White North clearly shot a clear signal across nVidia's bow with the R423 (Radeon X800) and RV410 (Radeon X700), and nVidia suddenly got nervous.

However, the 6200 and 6600 have been out since October, and here it is nearly Christmas and I can't buy one because nobody has released a bridge chip. The 6600GT seems to be suffering the same overpricing issues as its big brother, the 6800.

So, in order to purchase the less expensive 6200 and 6600 models, I have to buy Intel. Now things get messy. To move to PCI-E, I loose the mATX form factor, pay $5 more for a lower quality ECS board ($83), and get stuck with Socket478. If I want mATX, now I have to pay $28 more for an MSI board ($105), but I do get a new easy to damage Socket775. Whee. Of course the big question is, can I get an Intel CPU that runs just as fast as the Sempron 3100+ for $121? Uh, no. I have to pay more. Way more...

So now I'm mad. I can't buy the card I want because it doesn't exist. Its not economically viable to go Intel since to get the same performance in that camp, I have to shell out more money. I'd be more than half way to a 6600GT/AGP by the time I'm done. However, I'm already buying more than I really want for my brother. I love 'em, but not THAT much.

So the question is, how many other people have been borked by nVidia's decision to go PCI-E instead of AGP for their value line? Furthermore, what are your plans instead? Do you:

1) Shell out the extra $80 for a 6600GT/AGP?
2) Give up the DX9.1/SM3 support and get a Geforce FX5700LE?
3) Kiss nVidia goodbye and get a Radeon 9550 or 9600PRO?
4) Become a Luddite and move to the mountains of Montana?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: ToeJam13
Hello All,

I'm on a quest to build a sub-$400 system as a gift this Christmas. So far, I think I've selected the right blend of components to give me some good bang without dipping too deep into old or substandard technology.

Here is my list so far:
AMD Semperon 3100+ (Socket 754, 256MB Cache, Retail Package) - $121
AOpen MK89-L (nForce3-150 Chipset, mATX Form, Realtek Gig-E) - $77
Corsair Value 512MB (DDR400 CAS-2.5 DIMM) - $73
Gigabyte GV-NX66128D (Geforce 6600, 128MB, 300/550MHz) - $130

Total Price.................................................US$401


Whoooaaa! That video card won't fit in that board! AGP mainboard, PCI-Express video card. Something strange is afoot at nVidia...

From a PR standpoint, I understand why nVidia wanted to get on the PCI-Express bandwagon. That company from the Great White North clearly shot a clear signal across nVidia's bow with the R423 (Radeon X800) and RV410 (Radeon X700), and nVidia suddenly got nervous.

However, the 6200 and 6600 have been out since October, and here it is nearly Christmas and I can't buy one because nobody has released a bridge chip. The 6600GT seems to be suffering the same overpricing issues as its big brother, the 6800.

So, in order to purchase the less expensive 6200 and 6600 models, I have to buy Intel. Now things get messy. To move to PCI-E, I loose the mATX form factor, pay $5 more for a lower quality ECS board ($83), and get stuck with Socket478. If I want mATX, now I have to pay $28 more for an MSI board ($105), but I do get a new easy to damage Socket775. Whee. Of course the big question is, can I get an Intel CPU that runs just as fast as the Sempron 3100+ for $121? Uh, no. I have to pay more. Way more...

So now I'm mad. I can't buy the card I want because it doesn't exist. Its not economically viable to go Intel since to get the same performance in that camp, I have to shell out more money. I'd be more than half way to a 6600GT/AGP by the time I'm done. However, I'm already buying more than I really want for my brother. I love 'em, but not THAT much.

So the question is, how many other people have been borked by nVidia's decision to go PCI-E instead of AGP for their value line? Furthermore, what are your plans instead? Do you:

1) Shell out the extra $80 for a 6600GT/AGP?
2) Give up the DX9.1/SM3 support and get a Geforce FX5700LE?
3) Kiss nVidia goodbye and get a Radeon 9550 or 9600PRO?
4) Become a Luddite and move to the mountains of Montana?

Option 3

 

[RussianSensation]

You can get a cheaper socket 754 motherboard off newegg (I am sure they have something for $60).
Get 9700 for $150 off pricewatch
6600 sucks anyways.
A64 2800+ has 64-bit compatibility and kicks sempron's ass in most things for $6 more on Newegg.
Is that the cheapest 512mb of ram from a good manufacturer?

I looked at your prices, and it seems you excluded shipping. Then:

EPoX "EP-8KDA3J" nForce3-250Gb - $70
AMD Athlon 64 2800+, 512KB L2 Cache, 64-bit Processor - Retail - $127
Kingmax 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 - $66
Radeon 9700 - $149
should be in stock soon

total: $412 - but 11 more dollars buys you 64-bit + 9700 performance (A64 2800+ is faster stock, and the cpu and videocard have good overclocking potential)

 

[ToeJam13]

You can get a cheaper socket 754 motherboard

$105 is the cheapest mATX PCI-Express board over at NewEgg. There are S754+PCIe boards for as cheap as $85, but they are full ATX boards made by ECS. I've personally had a ECS board that fried in a few months and a good friend just had her ECS board die after 14 months. My dad has an old ABit BX6 that's nearly six years old now and still running. I expect AOpen to be somewhere in the middle.

Is that the cheapest 512mb of ram from a good manufacturer?

Mushkin makes a similar module for a few dollars less, but its rated at CAS3. The Corsair Value is a CAS2.5 module.

A64 2800+ has 64-bit compatibility and kicks sempron's ass

It was a hard decision, but for a mATX case, the A64 produces more heat. Besides in Doom3, its only 5% faster according to an Anandtech review. There's still two weeks for prices to drop, so my decision is not yet final.

6600 sucks anyways

Ahh, the flames come already.

I personally have had better luck with nVidia cards. I've owned three ATI cards (Rage Pro, Rage Pro AIW, 8500LE) and three nVidia cards (GF1/DDR, GF2, FX5500) since '98 and I've had driver problems with each of the ATI cards under NT4, Win2K and XP.

I expect that on an nForce chipset, I should have fewer issues with another nVidia product. The 9800PRO may have some slightly better specs, but it doesn't do SM3. Anandtech or somebody did side-by-sides of a 6600GT versus a 5950 with Doom3. The 5xxx series card got its arse kicked. I remember the 9800 also got slammed.

 

[HappyNic]

hmm for what you want you can't really get it at a sub$ 400, you forgot other things like,, Case, power supply, dvd/cd/burner/rom, Hard drive, fans, floppy? There's also keyboard, mouse, speakers, monitor.

you know for around the same price of your AGP 6600gt you're pretty close to the 6800nu price.

 

[Pete]

Doom 3 has nothing to do with SM3, but yes, nV cards have the edge in that game. Then again, ATi has the edge in Half-Life 2. It's all a matter of perspective, or should I say which games you play. I'd settle for a ~$110 used 9700P, or possibly a ~$150 used 9800P, if you want to stay close to $400. Both used cards will offer better bang for your buck than a new (and slightly overpriced) AGP 6600GT.

But if you can get an AGP 6600GT for $210, I say go for it. Save up an extra week or three and get a system you'll be happier with, IMO.

 

[Thermalrock]

a sempron does not have 256mb cache. would be nice if it did tho.

 

[HappyNic]

:Q 256mb cache :Q now that's a fast cpu, me want. But just the cost alone for one will shock everyone.

 

[ToeJam13]

sempron does not have 256mb cache

Hmm, Freudian slip perhaps? If only MIPS made an x86 CPU... 256MB level-3 cache. Yum! Anyways, yes... 256KB cache. My typo.

you forgot other things like,, Case, power supply, dvd/cd/burner/rom

This is an upgrade of an existing system, not a new one. He already has an ATX+4 power supply, 32xCD and a case.

I'd settle for a ~$110 used 9700P, or possibly a ~$150 used 9800P

The median price on eBay as of the past few hours has been ~$130 for a used 9700P.

Again what peeves me is how much better the GF6x00 series is versus the GF5x00 and Radeon9x00 in many respects. Anandtech did all sorts of tests which showed how the new cards ran past the old given similar clock speeds. I *really* wanted a 6600. Yet unless I go Intel, I have to pay through the nose for a PCI-E board. Its just not worth it...

 

[SonicIce]

It really sucks going though all these socket and slot transitions like this

 

[Acanthus]

find another $50 and get a 6800, the performance increase will be well worth it, and then you have your AGP.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: SonicIce
It really sucks going though all these socket and slot transitions like this

I hear that, im going 775 + PCI-E now only to swtich to NF4SLI and Dual PCI-E in the future, and ill have to change chipsets again when DDR-II actually starts posting performance gains.

 

[ToeJam13]

find another $50 and get a 6800

As of 3PM 02-Dec-2004:

Apollo 6800LE (128MB AGP) for $249 (add $4 shipping) via NewEgg.com
XFX 6600GT (128MB AGP) for $227 (add $6 shipping) via GameVE.com
XFX 6600GT (128MB PCI-E) for $173 (add $6 shipping) via Xtreme Gear
XFX 6600 (128MB PCI-E) for $103 (free shipping) via Xtreme Gear

With XFX's blatant price gouging for AGP 6600GTs, its less than $30 to upgrade to a 6800LE. The whole idea of low- to mid-grade parts is to get the most bang for the buck. That is obviously not the case with 6600GT AGP parts right now. With its performance, the 6600GT is not worth 230 clams. Heck, $173 is pushing it a little.

I also see that ATI released a new batch of cards, and they are all PCI-E. AGP bridged versions are not expected until sometime in January. So once again, Santa has left a lump of coal in the socks of AGP owners. And since 99% of AMD users are AGP, that's enough coal to keep the moles in West Virginia mining away for months to come.

So again, the question is, what would ya'll do?

1) Pay more for the AGP version of the 6600GT than the PCI-E and live with yourself in the morning?
2) Give up the new DX features and video co-processor and get a Geforce FX5700LE?
3) Kiss nVidia goodbye and get a Radeon 9600 Pro?
4) Buy a used Radeon 9700 Pro or Geforce 5800?
5) Retire to a remote beach in Tahiti and hope that you can pick up an Australian sat feed?