NY times calls for criminal prosecution of Cheney and others.

[ivwshane]

IMO, we can't charge them. If we did then we could get into a retaliatorial pissing match between the parties where each president will be looking to dig up dirt on the previous president and their administration in an attempt to file charges for something. It is a strange situation.

That may be true but that's a horrible excuse to use to ignore wrong doing. Failing to address this crime will have a negative impact on our world standing. Before you blow that off as 'who cares', understand that almost every war we entered into we did it through moral justification and we had support because of that justification. If we continue with these, 'it's ok for us but not for you', moves we could easily be on the receiving end of some backlash, financially and physically.




On an unrelated note: I've noticed that the right wingnuts have pretty much gone fascist.
They claim to be uber patriotic and anyone who disagrees with them or holds contrary views must hate America.
They support the use of torture.
They support police use of excessive force against people they don't like.
They support big government when it comes to personal matters they disagree with.
They support the mixing of religion and government.
They support intimidation through guns.
And they use and deal out propaganda quite frequently.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

73% of college grads that support torture is less than the average of all adults. (77%)

Although it is more than the HS or less category (73%), it is less than the some college category (84%). It's unclear how you would draw the conclusion that an increase in education meant greater support for torture from that data.

Regardless, even if that were true about education, what's your point? If the data pointed that way I certainly wouldn't accuse you of smearing the university crowd.

The percentage of Post-grads that support torture is 77%...therefore, the more educated one is, the more likely they are to support torture.

 

[fskimospy]

The percentage of Post-grads that support torture is 77%...therefore, the more educated one is, the more likely they are to support torture.

The percentage of ALL ADULTS that support torture is also 77%. Now a result that is exactly equal to the population mean (and 7 points lower than the 'some college' result') is indicative of increased education resulting in higher support for torture?

You're going to have to explain this one to me.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

The percentage of ALL ADULTS that support torture is also 77%. Now a result that is exactly equal to the population mean (and 7 points lower than the 'some college' result') is indicative of increased education resulting in higher support for torture?

You're going to have to explain this one to me.

Don't forget those with High School or less education at 73% which is below the population mean...if one is more educated than HS, the more likely they are to support torture. What level of education did you receive and what does it imply about your views in regard to this subject?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Mere assertion in support of their actions in a round about way.

You already knew that, right?

That was a sarcastic poke. I didn't believe what was being said before the first shot was fired and my opinion hasn't changed. We've mentioned religion, but I think that's not quite as relevant (although not irrelevant considering the all too common conflation of nationalistic pride and religion) as this quote attributed to Samuel Johnson.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

We even created that abomination, the Patriot Act, with a title such that only those who hate our nation would oppose. We were set up such that many were cowed and decided to abandon their duty to oppose such things out of fear of personal or political retribution. That too I find objectionable, I know you realize full well.

Well here's a chance to really do something. Let's see what our "leaders" do now.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Don't forget those with High School or less education at 73% which is below the population mean...if one is more educated than HS, the more likely they are to support torture. What level of education did you receive and what does it imply about your views in regard to this subject?

I have to say that I find that arguing about who constitutes what percentage to the nth degree like asking what the number of Parisians compared to provinces wanted Dreyfus executed and failing that his imprisonment. Seems to me it's irrelevant to the wrong done.

 

[fskimospy]

Don't forget those with High School or less education at 73% which is below the population mean...if one is more educated than HS, the more likely they are to support torture. What level of education did you receive and what does it imply about your views in regard to this subject?

Dude seriously, this is a slaughtering of statistics. As education levels increase support goes up then down, then settles at the population mean. The explanatory power of that variable is going to be pretty damn low or potentially zero, depending on the weights of each group.

The point you are trying to make is dumb and I don't base my acceptance of figures on what group they are about. That being said, why you chose a group with such a muddled and potentially nonexistent trend line is beyond me. Since you asked though, I have a postgraduate education, but statistics doesn't work like that. It implies nothing about my views in regard to torture, as my views are already known. Statistics are used for populations where the full preferences of the population aren't known.

All of this seems to be a ridiculous attempt to avoid talking about the very clear trend of certain religious groups to show higher support for torture. Hell, I would find that even if their levels of support were equal to the mean that would be weird, considering the message of Christianity. (it also seems to be an attempt to avoid admitting you flew off half cocked about the survey to begin with)

 

[master_shake_]

lol at steamer.

yes they did fire an rpg at your soldiers who invaded a sovereign nation that had nothing to do with attacks on your country.

 

[Moonbeam]

Torture is wrong. The means do not justify the ends. If you lower yourself to the level of the evil you believe you are fighting, there isn't the slightest justification as to why it would be better for you to win. One pile of shit is as good as another. Anybody who thinks they can justify torturing somebody for information must be willing to pay the full price for the crime or not do it. Put your money where your mouth is and take on the debt. You will be surprised to see how many heroes lose their commitment for their cause.

 

[kage69]

I have to say that I find that arguing about who constitutes what percentage to the nth degree like asking what the number of Parisians compared to provinces wanted Dreyfus executed and failing that his imprisonment. Seems to me it's irrelevant to the wrong done.

Well said!

And oh if only that evil fuckstain was as innocent as poor ol Alfred was in l'affaire Dreyfus. There would be several thousand Americans still alive, and tens of thousands more in normal operating order, I'm sure of that much.

Now I have a mental image of a sun burned and pissed off looking DICK wandering about Devil's Island looking for coconuts.

 

[kage69]

All of this seems to be a ridiculous attempt to avoid talking about the very clear trend of certain religious groups to show higher support for torture. Hell, I would find that even if their levels of support were equal to the mean that would be weird, considering the message of Christianity. (it also seems to be an attempt to avoid admitting you flew off half cocked about the survey to begin with)

I think you're right. IIRC the people who wanted the capital punishment for Dreyfus (or at least immediate exile) from Hayabusa's example were the religious people of France. The Dreyfusards were largely from the free thinkers side, they were people who didn't want the Church running their government and had a problem with sentencing honorable men for crimes they didn't commit. Granted, this was in a time where the church's official view on jews was still that they bore responsibility for the death of their jesus (Dreyfus was a jew), but still.

Can't say I've heard any of the people I know as agnostics ever advocate torture, or simply support views like Cheney's. I have had a self-avowed "god fearing" person tell me Cheney "should have had help from Gerard Butler," a la Law Abiding Citizen, which got murmurs of agreement from his sister and friends.

Trends like this are hard not to notice I guess.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think you're right. IIRC the people who wanted the capital punishment for Dreyfus (or at least immediate exile) from Hayabusa's example were the religious people of France

That's my understanding as well. Anti Semitism was rampant, but there was also a non-mutually exclusive prejudice against him because of the annexation of the Alsace.

Perhaps the NYT call for justice could be summed up as today's version of Emile Zola's "J'accuse!"

 

[Moonbeam]

What sacred cow do you imagine I'm trying to protect? There is little doubt in my mind that religious whites are more likely than most to believe torture is justifiable in certain cases. I also believe that this is true for religious blacks, Asians, Hispanics, etc. as well. However, the poll fails to cover these particular demographics nor even a catch-all non-white religious demographic for that matter...which I find quite odd considering the data granularity surrounding white religious affiliations. Unfortunately, this makes it impossible to determine just how much the color of one's skin affects one's "hypocrisy" among the religious. A damn shame, don't you think?

Me? I don't give a shit, but I see that your cow is White Christians. If there are a lot of sick White Christians or people think there are, what do I care, and why should you? Maybe there are a lot of them or maybe there's a lot of false accusations, but neither of those can change the fact that Christianity is a source of enlightenment for many white people. That's what I believe. I'm not a Christian, but I'm thumbs up for Jesus. Have you any idea what being forgiven for ones sins would be worth if you could believe it?

 

[shira]

No, I'm saying had New York got hit again its residents would have been leading the demands for torture or whatever else they thought would make the attacks stop.

In other words, you believe the rule of law should give way to the rule of fear and revenge?

 

[Sir Thumpsalot]

Torture is wrong.

You will have to forgive me, I came late into this conversation.
Exactly what methods are we calling torture? Just so I have the story straight.

 

[WackyDan]

Bottom line take on Bush/Cheney: Never EVER vote to the highest offices of gov't two businessmen who come from the class of the very wealthy and privileged and who are neocons who then appoint more neocons who have a long denied and passionate desire to forward their neocon world-wide agenda. The mix of those two factors are at the root of why Bush/Cheney did what they did and how they did it.

These two assholes, being from the privileged class, were used to having things their way and they were more than willing to cause the deaths of thousands, both from our own precious military and those of our perceived enemies to have things their way. Simultaneously cutting taxes for the rich and then starting two wars doesn't make any sense at all but it's what these two saw as being beneficial for themselves and their big business handlers. When viewed from that perspective then it made a whole lot of sense.

These two criminals took control of our intelligence services and got rid of any who crossed their paths and put in place or promoted those who would yield to their bidding to get the "evidence" they needed to execute their game plan.

It's how things get done in the world of high-stakes business and it's the "business" model these two brought to bear to run our government the way they could best exploit it for their personal benefit and for those of whom were personally associated with them.

It's perfectly obvious these two guys and their cronies should be charged with international crimes and crimes against the gov't (the people) for exploiting their positions in gov't office for personal gain, and crimes against the gov't (the people) for needlessly causing the deaths and maiming of untold thousands of our military service members and innocents caught up in the monumental strife these two perpetrated against humanity.

I could go on and on with how these two guys caused the deaths and ruination of the lives of so many to enrich the lives of so few.

Sickening, really.

I bet you find no fault with Obama expanding the use of drones to kill us citizens abroad and innocent women and children? *Or that fact that Gitmo is still there...

There is no difference and that is why this NYT piece is a fluff piece and that is all.

 

[Moonbeam]

You will have to forgive me, I came late into this conversation.
Exactly what methods are we calling torture? Just so I have the story straight.

You sound for all the world to me like a person seeking debate. I suggest, therefore, that you chose a time and a place and allow me to take control of you so we can test some of the various techniques and you can get to know exactly what they feel like. Then I will allow you to decide which of them meets YOUR definition of torture, OK? I find that definitions are far more slippery for folk who have no personal experience, but we can fix that,

 

[Sir Thumpsalot]

You sound for all the world to me like a person seeking debate. I suggest, therefore, that you chose a time and a place and allow me to take control of you so we can test some of the various techniques and you can get to know exactly what they feel like. Then I will allow you to decide which of them meets YOUR definition of torture, OK? I find that definitions are far more slippery for folk who have no personal experience, but we can fix that,

I just asked a simple question, Clyde. One of which you still haven't answered.
Was it too difficult to understand? Can I ask it in a more simple manner? Crayons and markers, perhaps? Pictures?

You let me know.

 

[TreVader]

Eh my distaste for torture and the actions of Cheney et al is tempered by the knowledge that many many regimes employ much much harsher techniques. And I'll tell you, whatever techniques we employed are quite literally child's play compared to what Los Zetas and the Sinaloa cartel employ only miles from our southern border. Of course they almost always end up dead.

That said,

Kids torture is bad,

Mmkay

 

[Jhhnn]

I just asked a simple question, Clyde. One of which you still haven't answered.
Was it too difficult to understand? Can I ask it in a more simple manner? Crayons and markers, perhaps? Pictures?

You let me know.

Divert into the deliberately obtuse, right?

The simple answer is that if it'd feel like torture if somebody were doing it to you, it's probably torture.

YMMV if you're a submissive into bondage, I suppose.

 

[Sir Thumpsalot]

Divert into the deliberately obtuse, right?

The simple answer is that if it'd feel like torture if somebody were doing it to you, it's probably torture.

YMMV if you're a submissive into bondage, I suppose.

Once again, another jackass that can't answer a simple question. Color me surprised

 

[fskimospy]

You will have to forgive me, I came late into this conversation.
Exactly what methods are we calling torture? Just so I have the story straight.

The ones classified by the U.S.

 

[MongGrel]

Torture is wrong. The means do not justify the ends. If you lower yourself to the level of the evil you believe you are fighting, there isn't the slightest justification as to why it would be better for you to win. One pile of shit is as good as another. Anybody who thinks they can justify torturing somebody for information must be willing to pay the full price for the crime or not do it. Put your money where your mouth is and take on the debt. You will be surprised to see how many heroes lose their commitment for their cause.

This.

 

[MongGrel]

Once again, another jackass that can't answer a simple question. Color me surprised

Your getting very annoying real fast with your offhand bullshit.

Almost sound like Alky.

 

[Sir Thumpsalot]

The ones classified by the U.S.

Which are, specifically? I don't want to be accused of putting words in your mouth.