NYT story - Racial disparity in policing

[GarfieldtheCat]

Looks like we have enough racists here now for them to start their own KKK chapter. How about it guys? You can all get together and bash black people without anyone calling you racists.

 

[glenn1]

Great! So can you point me to a thread in ATPN where you think anti-black racism was the cause for some law enforcement action? It could be in NYC or anywhere else!

And that would prove what exactly? I see no reason why racism among police officers should vary significantly from its prevalence in the population at large. On the granular level of any given case you need to look at the specifics to gauge whether it's likely that racism was a factor, undetermined how much race was a factor vs a legitimate case of an officer defending himself, or a case where the black person in question was unquestionably in the wrong.

In no event do I see where I have the burden of fixing the racism demonstrated by a police force like your city's. That's YOUR problem and duty to fix and you really need to have your own shit in order before talking shit about other places and how racist their cops are.

 

[glenn1]

Yes there are. Black on black crime occurs at roughly similar rates to white on white crime, etc. None of that is relevant in a discussion of systemic racism in policing.

Bullshit and trivial to disprove. A dead body is de facto proof of the claim.

Now if you want to argue that higher arrest rates don't reflect reality due to a greater propensity for police to arrest blacks, racism by jury peers in convictions, etc. then knock yourself out. But don't pretend like the statement is some outrageous racist fabrication because it's not.

 

[Ackmed]

Says the police apologist that says other people's lives don't matter, and calls people killed by cops are "leeches"

Yup, you sure got credibility.

Those numbers are all based on real data (not your fantasies or imagination) that several states made police departments collect after seeing problems with policing.

And this data proves there is a problem with racism in the police, at least through several states.

Care to comment on the data? Can you prove it wrong? Do you have anything factual to say? Talk about trolling.

If I am a cop apologist, what are you? Your hypocrisy is showing like normal. I have condemned actions by cops when I thought warranted, you on the other hand do nothing but make anti cop threads. Troll and call out posters while doing it.

Some people are leeches on society, contributing nothing, and have I no sadness from them no longer being around to leech. I do not care if some people cause their own demise. So what? Are you just going to continue to troll after me citing these things?

There are some facts yes, there is also straight lies and 'word of mouth' being taken as truth. Stories with no factual data to back them up, but put out there to make it look bad.

Is there racism in policing? I believe so. Is there racial profiling in policing? I believe so. Is there profiling in general? I believe so. Does this occur in almost every walk in life? I believe so. Does this make any of it ok? No, it does not.

 

[fskimospy]

Bullshit and trivial to disprove. A dead body is de facto proof of the claim.

lol glenn, nice self ownage there.

Not only do murder rates not encompass all types of crime by any stretch of the imagination, but according to your own link black people commit approximately 90.1% of murders of black people. White people commit approximately 83.5% of murders of white people. So black people kill black people at a rate approximately 6.6% higher than white people kill white people. That's 'roughly similar' to me.

Thanks for proving my point. Hahaha.

Now if you want to argue that higher arrest rates don't reflect reality due to a greater propensity for police to arrest blacks, racism by jury peers in convictions, etc. then knock yourself out. But don't pretend like the statement is some outrageous racist fabrication because it's not.

So will you be providing any cases you've seen on ATPN where anti-black racism was at fault? What I always see here is some generalized acknowledgment that racism exists in the US but in literally every single specific case people twist themselves into knots to explain why racism was never the case there. As soon as conservatives here are asked to actually acknowledge racism where a remedy could be provided, that general idea of racism that exists instantly evaporates.

 

[glenn1]

lol glenn, nice self ownage there.

Not only do murder rates not encompass all types of crime by any stretch of the imagination, but according to your own link black people commit approximately 90.1% of murders of black people. White people commit approximately 83.5% of murders of white people. So black people kill black people at a rate approximately 6.6% higher than white people kill white people. That's 'roughly similar' to me.

Thanks for proving my point. Hahah.

I used to think you were intelligent but you're proving that assumption wrong. The question isn't about whether races victimize each other at the same rate, but rather whether PER CAPITA crime rates are higher.

So will you be providing any cases you've seen on ATPN where anti-black racism was at fault? What I always see here is some generalized acknowledgment that racism exists in the US but in literally every single specific case people twist themselves into knots to explain why racism was never the case there. As soon as conservatives here are asked to actually acknowledge racism where a remedy could be provided, that general idea of racism that exists instantly evaporates.

I already cited Abner Louima by your very own NYPD. If you want to prove that I downplay police racism then you find a posting by me that proves your point; it's your duty to prove I'm racist and not mine to prove I'm not.

 

[fskimospy]

I used to think you were intelligent but you're proving that assumption wrong. The question isn't about whether races victimize each other at the same rate, but rather whether PER CAPITA crime rates are higher.

Uhmm, no it wasn't. Did you even bother to read the comment that I replied to? It was explicitly about the rate at which black people victimize each other vs. other races.

I used to think you were intelligent, hahaha.

I already cited Abner Louima by your very own NYPD. If you want to prove that I downplay police racism then you find a posting by me that proves your point; it's your duty to prove I'm racist and not mine to prove I'm not.

I'm glad to hear that you aren't! There are plenty of people here who don't share your acknowledgement of racism.

 

[glenn1]

Uhmm, no it wasn't. Did you even bother to read the comment that I replied to? It was explicitly about the rate at which black people victimize each other vs. other races.

I used to think you were intelligent, hahaha.

ARE YOU STUPID?

According to the FBI SHR data, in 2011 there were 6,309 black homicide victims in the United States. The homicide rate among black victims in the United States was 17.51 per 100,000. For that year, the overall national homicide rate was 4.44 per 100,000. For whites, the national homicide rate was 2.64 per 100,000.

Blacks homicide rate is four times the national average and almost 7x that of whites. Only a fvcking idiot (or you, but that's redundant) would say that's OK just because the race of the perpetrator is a similar percentage despite being hugely higher per capita.

 

[fskimospy]

ARE YOU STUPID?

According to the FBI SHR data, in 2011 there were 6,309 black homicide victims in the United States. The homicide rate among black victims in the United States was 17.51 per 100,000. For that year, the overall national homicide rate was 4.44 per 100,000. For whites, the national homicide rate was 2.64 per 100,000.

Blacks homicide rate is four times the national average and almost 7x that of whites. Only a fvcking idiot (or you, but that's redundant) would say that's OK just because the race of the perpetrator is a similar percentage despite being hugely higher per capita.

Glenn, you're embarrassing yourself again.

This is the post that my post you originally quoted responded to:

Are there statistics with regards to Black on Black Crime vs Black on everyone else ?

To this I responded:

Yes there are. Black on black crime occurs at roughly similar rates to white on white crime, etc. None of that is relevant in a discussion of systemic racism in policing.

You then quoted that post and provided statistics that backed up my point while claiming it was 'trivially' disproven. It's okay that you didn't read my post closely and responded with an unrelated point, but it's really stupid to keep doubling down on it after being repeatedly told that.

Considering you can't read this and actually be illiterate, are you stupid? Are you too lazy to bother to comprehend the things you read before responding to them? Are you just too enraged about racism and crime?

 

[glenn1]

Glenn, you're embarrassing yourself again.

This is the post that my post you originally quoted responded to:



To this I responded:



You then quoted that post and provided statistics that backed up my point while claiming it was 'trivially' disproven. It's okay that you didn't read my post closely and responded with an unrelated point, but it's really stupid to keep doubling down on it after being repeatedly told that.

Considering you can't read this and actually be illiterate, are you stupid? Are you too lazy to bother to comprehend the things you read before responding to them? Are you just too enraged about racism and crime?

So you don't care black people murder each other at 7x per capita rates then why are we bothering to have this discussion about black vs. white crime rates? By that "logic" it doesn't matter if police shoot X times as many blacks as whites, only the race of the officers doing the shooting matters. Thus if black and white officers shoot blacks at equal rates then police racism doesn't exist evidently, even if many times more black people are dead.

 

[fskimospy]

So you don't care that there's 7x as many murdered black people per capita then why are we bothering to have this discussion? By that "logic" it doesn't matter if police shoot X times as many blacks as whites, only the race of the officers doing the shooting matters. Thus if black and white officers shoot blacks at equal rates then police racism doesn't exist evidently, even if many times more black people are dead.

Of course I care, it's just not what I was talking about in the post you quoted. I don't know why you tried to argue so hard against something that wasn't being said.

Crime rates for black people are considerably higher than crime rates for white people. Their stop/frisk/citation/arrest rates by police are considerably higher than what can be accounted for by different crime rates, AND black people stopped were actually less likely to be committing a crime than the whites who were stopped. That means that crime rates within the black community are a problem AND racism within police departments is a problem.

We already acknowledge as a society that high crime rates in the black community are a bad thing, but we have only recently started to acknowledge the pervasive racism within our law enforcement community. It's even more problematic that marginalized groups without strong financial or legal resources are being subjected to this, as fairly trivial problems can balloon into disasters if you lack the resources to pay fines, etc.

 

[glenn1]

Of course I care, it's just not what I was talking about in the post you quoted. I don't know why you tried to argue so hard against something that wasn't being said.

Crime rates for black people are considerably higher than crime rates for white people. Their stop/frisk/citation/arrest rates by police are considerably higher than what can be accounted for by different crime rates, AND black people stopped were actually less likely to be committing a crime than the whites who were stopped. That means that crime rates within the black community are a problem AND racism within police departments is a problem.

We already acknowledge as a society that high crime rates in the black community are a bad thing, but we have only recently started to acknowledge the pervasive racism within our law enforcement community. It's even more problematic that marginalized groups without strong financial or legal resources are being subjected to this, as fairly trivial problems can balloon into disasters if you lack the resources to pay fines, etc.

Unsure why you're ascribing higher stop/frisk/citation/arrest rates to racism exclusively when other factors certainly come into play - for example, the "snitches get stitches" mindset of non-cooperation with police may mean they get a better description of a white suspect than a black suspect thus can apprehend him with less stops. Other highly relevant factors include a legal code where we criminalize activities far more common among the poor (who disproportionately includes blacks) such as loitering, drug use for personal use or limited sales, petty tax crimes (like selling "loosies"), etc. Or police focusing their efforts on where crime is most committed ("fishing where there are the most fish") means a lot of police attention in poor inner city areas, again over-represented in black population.

So without overlooking racial bias and still considering the above and other factors, that leads to a few questions we should be asking.

1. Is the overall level of police activity against crime too high, too low, or just right?
2. Is police activity directed at the crime activities that society cares most about?
3. Should reducing the targeted crime activities be the primary objective, or should other considerations be just as important (e.g. disparate racial impact)?
4. What cultural factors can we explore as a means of crime reduction?
5. Can we tweak the cost/benefit consideration for potential criminals, and if so how?
6. As racism isn't going away, how do we screen police officers for it and minimize them being able to act on it?

Feel free to add more.

 

[Genx87]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHA

That article is seriously reeking of bullshit and/or twisting things the way they want to be.

"officers pulled over African-American drivers for traffic violations at a rate far out of proportion with their share of the local driving population." -----

Yeah ok. Police radar guns have friggin race detectors on them now I guess.

Do you believe people are only pulled over because of speed?

 

[fskimospy]

Unsure why you're ascribing higher stop/frisk/citation/arrest rates to racism exclusively when other factors certainly come into play - for example, the "snitches get stitches" mindset of non-cooperation with police may mean they get a better description of a white suspect than a black suspect thus can apprehend him with less stops. Other highly relevant factors include a legal code where we criminalize activities far more common among the poor (who disproportionately includes blacks) such as loitering, drug use for personal use or limited sales, petty tax crimes (like selling "loosies"), etc. Or police focusing their efforts on where crime is most committed ("fishing where there are the most fish") means a lot of police attention in poor inner city areas, again over-represented in black population.

Because although blacks were stopped at a far higher rate than whites they were found to be guilty of a violation significantly less often, for one. This disparity exists even after controlling for other factors.

So without overlooking racial bias and still considering the above and other factors, that leads to a few questions we should be asking.

1. Is the overall level of police activity against crime too high, too low, or just right?

2. Is police activity directed at the crime activities that society cares most about?

I would say generally yes, as policing is a heavily political topic. Police departments that don't follow the wishes of the public tend to get new commissioners. (at least those segments of the public that wield power) The problem here is that different segments of society have very different ideas of what activities should be policed most and how.

3. Should reducing the targeted crime activities be the primary objective, or should other considerations be just as important (e.g. disparate racial impact)?

Well, disparate racial impact is illegal, so the police shouldn't have much choice on that one.

4. What cultural factors can we explore as a means of crime reduction?
5. Can we tweak the cost/benefit consideration for potential criminals, and if so how?

I think all three of these things are very valuable! It seems to me to be a self perpetuating cycle. Communities are alienated by heavy handed policing and discriminatory policies, so they reject the values and institutions of the larger society, which further marginalizes them and opens them to more discrimination.

I wouldn't pretend to have any idea how we can break that cycle, but both parties have a role.

6. As racism isn't going away, how do we screen police officers for it and minimize them being able to act on it?

Feel free to add more.

I think one of the best ways would be to more aggressively sanction police officers who engage in blatantly racist policing. Yes, I think a culture of racism exists in some (many?) police departments, but that's really hard to tackle. How about we just grab the low hanging fruit first and stop protecting the assholes who are caught in blatant violations of their duties? Things are getting better on that front recently, but still.

 

[Cozarkian]

Already accounted for.

Where? The article mentions the argument that more blacks are in high crime areas and then argues that increasing stops in such areas isn't beneficial, but I didn't see any mention of them accounting for this difference in the data.

One factor that might explain why consent searches against whites are less common and more successful is increased cultural variation. Whites may have a larger variation in manner of speech and dress that helps officers distinguish between potential white criminals, whereas blacks may have a more homogenous style regardless of their propensity for crime.

There may also be differences in the types of cars being driven and the percentages of blacks driving cars with expired plates, broken lights, etc...

The above are examples of socio-economic discrimination that disproportionately affect blacks and we still have to decide whether that is a good thing.

That's not to say a portion of this isn't racial.
If blacks make up 40% of a population but 50% of the crime, they will be pulled over more often. One could argue that statistically they should only make up 50% of traffic stops, but people don't think in statistics, so it is likely the perception that blacks are more likely to be criminals would result in a higher than 50% proportion of stops.

 

[Venix]

Glenn, you're embarrassing yourself again.

This is the post that my post you originally quoted responded to:



To this I responded:



You then quoted that post and provided statistics that backed up my point while claiming it was 'trivially' disproven. It's okay that you didn't read my post closely and responded with an unrelated point, but it's really stupid to keep doubling down on it after being repeatedly told that.

Considering you can't read this and actually be illiterate, are you stupid? Are you too lazy to bother to comprehend the things you read before responding to them? Are you just too enraged about racism and crime?

Your terminology was incorrect. A proportion is not a rate. The proportion of black murder victims who are killed by blacks is similar to the proportion of white murder victims killed by whites, but the rate of black on black murder is significantly higher.

In any case, the poster you replied to wasn't asking about "black on black" vs "white on white" crime rates. He was asking how often blacks victimize people of other races versus how often they victimize other blacks.

 

[fskimospy]

Your terminology was incorrect. A proportion is not a rate.

The proportion of black murder victims who are killed by blacks is similar to the proportion of white murder victims killed by whites, but the rate of black on black murder is significantly higher.

You're right, I should have said proportion instead.

In any case, the poster you replied to wasn't asking about "black on black" vs "white on white" crime rates. He was asking how often blacks victimize people of other races versus how often they victimize other blacks.

Considering how that exact same question is brought up in nearly every thread about police brutality against black people, it is extremely likely that the question was meant to imply that black people have more to fear from each other than from the police. You can see countless examples of it in other threads on this forum, which is why I mentioned that people of all races have approximately the same 'problem'.

 

[x26]

Are there statistics with regards to Black on Black Crime vs Black on everyone else ?

http://2kpcwh2r7phz1nq4jj237m22.wpe...wp-content/uploads/2015/07/BlackOffenders.jpg

 

[glenn1]

You're right, I should have said proportion instead.



Considering how that exact same question is brought up in nearly every thread about police brutality against black people, it is extremely likely that the question was meant to imply that black people have more to fear from each other than from the police. You can see countless examples of it in other threads on this forum, which is why I mentioned that people of all races have approximately the same 'problem'.

Many blacks do have more to fear from each other than police, you can't consider blacks as a monolithic set. If you are a upper class suburban black then your risk from a racist police officer is likely much greater unless you are involved in a domestic violence situation. Whereas if you're a young male in the ghetto your risk from peers is astronomically higher. It's not police killing hundreds of black kids in Chicago and other big cities, it's other blacks.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

Well blacks commit crimes at far higher levels than whites, so systemic policing variations are not only expected but appropriate.

Whites use illegal drugs at roughly the same rates as blacks. And yet there are far more blacks in prison for drugs than whites. Something like a 10x rate. That is statistically astonishing. When you consider that the white population dwarfs the black population, then it becomes completely fairy unicorn land type unbelievable that this is NOT driven by some form of bias apart from the tired old "they commit more crimes so we gotta bust them more".

If you focus your policing efforts on one segment of society, then not only are they caught and prosecuted more than other segments who might commit the same crimes, but then their segment becomes more and more violent over the decades as they are confined to and then released from violence training camps...uh...I mean prison. As they become more violent, they are policed and busted more. And so on and so on. It's a vicious cycle that will only get worse. The only reason to continue as we are is if this is what we WANT. If you want to break the cycle, then legalize drugs and focus on rehabilitation instead of punishment.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

If I am a cop apologist, what are you? Your hypocrisy is showing like normal. I have condemned actions by cops when I thought warranted, you on the other hand do nothing but make anti cop threads. Troll and call out posters while doing it.

Some people are leeches on society, contributing nothing, and have I no sadness from them no longer being around to leech. I do not care if some people cause their own demise. So what? Are you just going to continue to troll after me citing these things?

There are some facts yes, there is also straight lies and 'word of mouth' being taken as truth. Stories with no factual data to back them up, but put out there to make it look bad.

Is there racism in policing? I believe so. Is there racial profiling in policing? I believe so. Is there profiling in general? I believe so. Does this occur in almost every walk in life? I believe so. Does this make any of it ok? No, it does not.

You are an admitted pro-cop bigot who discriminates against non-cops, and also most likely racist from your posts about blacks being "leeches" and other comments. So way to go, what a fine person you are, racist and bigot. Good job with your intolerance.

You haven't come up with one single comment about the data. It's real data collected by cops and state governements. Care to comment on it? Can you prove it wrong? Becuase in that case, you ahve to admit the cops are lying, since they are the ones reporting it.

Or do you just long for the good old days, where cops could take people aside and beat the shit out of them, or maybe throw in jail for being black, just for fun? Is that what you like? Pity you can't go back to the good old days before cell phone cameras right?

I've (and others) have shown time and time again there is a systemic problem with policing in this country. People like you, with the "few bad apples" defense are just allowing this behavior to continue with your denial of the facts and severity. But since racism and bigotry aren't exactly dead in the US, you have a lot of company, and you and your fellow bigots continue to stonewall real changes that need to be done.

So once again, you got anything, anything at all that shows that this data is wrong? Because if not, you are once again trolling and presenting your fantasies as fact.

And I will also remind you of the another post that interviewed actual cops, and like half of them admitted to covering up abuse. those are real cops admitting it. Care to prove that statistic wrong as well?

So your continued claim of "few bad apples" is totally false, but as a good bigot, you will continue to ignore the facts and believe what you want.

 

[Ackmed]

You are an admitted pro-cop bigot who discriminates against non-cops, and also most likely racist from your posts about blacks being "leeches" and other comments. So way to go, what a fine person you are, racist and bigot. Good job with your intolerance.

You haven't come up with one single comment about the data. It's real data collected by cops and state governements. Care to comment on it? Can you prove it wrong? Becuase in that case, you ahve to admit the cops are lying, since they are the ones reporting it.

Or do you just long for the good old days, where cops could take people aside and beat the shit out of them, or maybe throw in jail for being black, just for fun? Is that what you like? Pity you can't go back to the good old days before cell phone cameras right?

I've (and others) have shown time and time again there is a systemic problem with policing in this country. People like you, with the "few bad apples" defense are just allowing this behavior to continue with your denial of the facts and severity. But since racism and bigotry aren't exactly dead in the US, you have a lot of company, and you and your fellow bigots continue to stonewall real changes that need to be done.

So once again, you got anything, anything at all that shows that this data is wrong? Because if not, you are once again trolling and presenting your fantasies as fact.

And I will also remind you of the another post that interviewed actual cops, and like half of them admitted to covering up abuse. those are real cops admitting it. Care to prove that statistic wrong as well?

So your continued claim of "few bad apples" is totally false, but as a good bigot, you will continue to ignore the facts and believe what you want.

I never once said I was an "admitted pro-cop bigot who discriminates against non-cops". But like usual, you lie and throw poo on the wall, name calling along the way.

I also never said "blacks were leeches", but good try. You're lying yet again. All you do is sling names, and lies to attempt to mask your obvious hatred towards cops and anyone who opposes your views. It is pretty sad, but I am used to it from you. Constantly posting only anti cop threads, and bashing anyone who doesn't agree with you. It is a tried and true course, but it getting pretty old.

I already stated that the stories they portrayed as factual, do not have any factual data to back them up. And the article flat out lied (probably why you like it, you do the same) on a few things. Is it all wrong? I doubt it. There is a problem in the policing of people, I also never said there wasn't.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

But like usual, you lie and throw poo on the wall, name calling along the way.

Spot on assessment! This is what GarfieldtheCat does 99.9% of the time.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

I never once said I was an "admitted pro-cop bigot who discriminates against non-cops". But like usual, you lie and throw poo on the wall, name calling along the way.

Yes you did, when you found out you were (once again) wrong about cops having the most dangerous job. You blew off everyone else that had a riskier job then cops, saying that it was their fault they died.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37676807&postcount=96

A logger doesn't have people actively trying to kill them. They die because they don't get out of the way of a falling tree, or something similar.

You started a new meme....#loggerslivesdont matter. You outed yourself as a bigot right there.

I also never said "blacks were leeches", but good try. You're lying yet again. All you do is sling names, and lies to attempt to mask your obvious hatred towards cops and anyone who opposes your views. It is pretty sad, but I am used to it from you. Constantly posting only anti cop threads, and bashing anyone who doesn't agree with you. It is a tried and true course, but it getting pretty old.

Let me help you out:

Freddie Grey, an innocent man killed by cops:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37686459&postcount=4

he was a worthless human being

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37689161&postcount=115

I was referring to Gray as a leech

Anything else you want to lie and deny? Those are your posts correct?

So yeah, you have called innocent black men leeches.

I already stated that the stories they portrayed as factual, do not have any factual data to back them up. And the article flat out lied (probably why you like it, you do the same) on a few things. Is it all wrong? I doubt it. There is a problem in the policing of people, I also never said there wasn't.

LOL...the data is wrong...I just know it in my heart! Well, I guess coming from an admitted pro-cop bigot we should believe you?

I'll believe the actual data....you can keep dreaming about the good old days when cops routinely beat up blacks for no reason.

Third time I am asking...you got anything to back up your lie that the article's data is wrong? I keep asking, you keep ignoring.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Spot on assessment! This is what GarfieldtheCat does 99.9% of the time.

You too are welcome to disprove the article's data if you wish.

Or you can join Ackmed in trolling.