Obama: $1000 check to families to be paid by big oil

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Citrix
i think you need to take the advanced 101 econ class.

You mean the one you've never taken, Mr. LMT?


A windfall profits tax will NOT directly increase prices. Period. Any argument to this would be a direct rejection of basic economic theory and is pure FUD.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Windfall Profits

Windfall profits are a type of windfall gain. They can occur due to unforeseen circumstances in a product's market, such as unexpected demand or government regulation. Since the profits were unforeseen, some legislators believe that taxing them should not hurt the company. This type of taxation is known as a windfall profits tax.

India's and China's economies have been growing for much longer than just the past 4-8 years. I don't see how the increased demand for oil generated by their growth can be called unexpected.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Windfall Profits

Windfall profits are a type of windfall gain. They can occur due to unforeseen circumstances in a product's market, such as unexpected demand or government regulation. Since the profits were unforeseen, some legislators believe that taxing them should not hurt the company. This type of taxation is known as a windfall profits tax.

India's and China's economies have been growing for much longer than just the past 4-8 years. I don't see how the increased demand for oil generated by their growth can be called unexpected.

'Unexpected' in this context means not caused by any direct action of the company.
For example, 'unexpected' would also apply if you received an inheritance from your uncle. Now... you might have known that your uncle was rich, that he was old and sick, and even that you were in his will, but when the inheritance finally comes, it would still be considered 'unexpected' in economic terms.

 

[cubeless]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Citrix
i think you need to take the advanced 101 econ class.

You mean the one you've never taken, Mr. LMT?


A windfall profits tax will NOT directly increase prices. Period. Any argument to this would be a direct rejection of basic economic theory and is pure FUD.

only if the company either absorbs or offsets the cost, or reduces its profit margin by the cost of the tax...

but what's the description of windfall? why didn't barry fork over a bunch extra on his book profits, wasn't that a windfall? Hell, all he did was sit at a typewriter for a while to produce it... What about Mich's new job with its huge new salary? Where's the definition of windfall?

exxon (and all large companies) will break up the company so that each unit is small so that the commies won't target them based on their size...

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Vic
The biggest problem IMO with politics in the US is that there's socialists on one side, fascists on the other, and both sides fancy themselves lovers of freedom and democracy. It's a crock.

And look who is talking.

Sometimes you gotta take a stand, bamacre. You can't sit on the sidelines complaining forever and clinging to ideological principle, especially when you have a situation like now where the balance of power is tipping way too far to one side. If the Republicans win this year, despite all the clear damage that Bush and his cronies have done to the country and the ideals it was founded upon, then this country WILL slide into fascist slavery, endless imperialistic wars, and theocracy.

Very true I guess. Better socialism than fascism like you say. I'll vote for Obama and pretend I support freedom and democracy.

 

[mshan]

Relative growth of oil production hasn't kept up with relative growth of demand, thus the skyrocketing of oil prices:

http://www.cambiar.com/cms_images/file_162.pdf (scroll down to page 4; chart on page 6)

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: cubeless
exxon (and all large companies) will break up the company so that each unit is small so that the commies won't target them based on their size...

All the more reason to do it then IMO.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Vic
The biggest problem IMO with politics in the US is that there's socialists on one side, fascists on the other, and both sides fancy themselves lovers of freedom and democracy. It's a crock.

And look who is talking.

Sometimes you gotta take a stand, bamacre. You can't sit on the sidelines complaining forever and clinging to ideological principle, especially when you have a situation like now where the balance of power is tipping way too far to one side. If the Republicans win this year, despite all the clear damage that Bush and his cronies have done to the country and the ideals it was founded upon, then this country WILL slide into fascist slavery, endless imperialistic wars, and theocracy.

Very true I guess. Better socialism than fascism like you say. I'll vote for Obama and pretend I support freedom and democracy.

I didn't say better socialism than fascism. What I said is that, in this environment, the best way to to support freedom and democracy is by working to keep any single faction from becoming too powerful.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Windfall Profits

Windfall profits are a type of windfall gain. They can occur due to unforeseen circumstances in a product's market, such as unexpected demand or government regulation. Since the profits were unforeseen, some legislators believe that taxing them should not hurt the company. This type of taxation is known as a windfall profits tax.

India's and China's economies have been growing for much longer than just the past 4-8 years. I don't see how the increased demand for oil generated by their growth can be called unexpected.

I disagree, but our opinions don't really count which brings me to my next question. Who decides if it is unexpected or not? Who decides if they are actually Windfall Profits?

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Vic

Wrong. Such costs don't increase prices when market prices are already very profitable, as they are now. Econ 101, buddy. Sellers only pass on costs to consumers via prices when they have to in order to remain profitable.

i think you need to take the advanced 101 econ class.

No, he's right. This is why the argument 'the tax will just be passed onto consumers' is a crock. If that were true, we should never tax any corporation or business ever because it's simply a waste of time and that's obviously not the case. This really is economics 101.

uh, no, he's not. i gave the eco 101 explanation. BOTH sellers and buyers end up paying. i don't know what about that is so hard to figure out.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Citrix
i think you need to take the advanced 101 econ class.

You mean the one you've never taken, Mr. LMT?


A windfall profits tax will NOT directly increase prices. Period. Any argument to this would be a direct rejection of basic economic theory and is pure FUD.

lol bit me, its CMT in my neck of the woods oh and FYI I have a BA from UND (University of North Dakota) so yes i have taken a few econo classes.



**Edit you know the more i think about your "You mean the one you've never taken, Mr. LMT" statement the more it pisses me off.

 

[winnar111]

Why do Democrats always talk about Exxon Mobil's record income, but never about their record tax bill?

Exxon mobil pays more income taxes than the bottom 50% of this nation!

http://seekingalpha.com/articl...07-tax-bill-30-billion

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Citrix
i think you need to take the advanced 101 econ class.

You mean the one you've never taken, Mr. LMT?


A windfall profits tax will NOT directly increase prices. Period. Any argument to this would be a direct rejection of basic economic theory and is pure FUD.

lol bit me, its CMT in my neck of the woods oh and FYI I have a BA from UND (University of North Dakota) so yes i have taken a few econo classes.



**Edit you know the more i think about your "You mean the one you've never taken, Mr. LMT" statement the more it pisses me off.

Why? Remind you of a book you never read too?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: winnar111
Why do Democrats always talk about Exxon Mobil's record income, but never about their record tax bill?

Exxon mobil pays more income taxes than the bottom 50% of this nation!

http://seekingalpha.com/articl...07-tax-bill-30-billion

And I'm fairly certain that they get more sway in govt than the bottom 50% of this nation too.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: winnar111
Why do Democrats always talk about Exxon Mobil's record income, but never about their record tax bill?

Exxon mobil pays more income taxes than the bottom 50% of this nation!

http://seekingalpha.com/articl...07-tax-bill-30-billion

That proves far more than you are hoping it dispels.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: winnar111
Why do Democrats always talk about Exxon Mobil's record income, but never about their record tax bill?

Exxon mobil pays more income taxes than the bottom 50% of this nation!

http://seekingalpha.com/articl...07-tax-bill-30-billion

And I'm fairly certain that they get more sway in govt than the bottom 50% of this nation too.

Given that some factions of our government want them to fork over these additional 'windfall' taxes, they damn well should.

 

[herm0016]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: herm0016

Originally posted by: CalvinHobbes
I support this, it's like a nation wide profit sharing plan. You could also consider it a dividend payment on our investment in the big oil companies.

you can also consider it communism at its finest. everybody works, everybody gets their share right?

Were you complaining when the oil companies got their share out of our taxdollars?

no, but i do not think i was paying taxes then, not sure when that started/stopped. I am a younger fellow who has worked and invested from 14 and hated all the money i had to give the government in taxes and cap. gains over the last 8 years, and I have always been against government subsidies for farms, people, oil, etc...

 

[SSSnail]

"I see your $600 tax-rebate-check-to-buy votes from stupid Americans and raise you $1000 take-from-oil-rich-companies-because-they're-evil promise check; vote for me because I'll change your miserable lives, I'll make you RICH! Don't you want to be rich? Change, yes we can! Gosh Americans are so stupid, you can buy them with nothing more than a song and dance - hey, turn that microphone off".

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
"only"? Uhhh... wrong. If a seller wants to maintain a X% profit margin(goal) and their costs increase - how the hell do you think they will meet their X% profit goal without raising prices? It matters very little whether or not they are above or below 0% profit - what matters is if they are above or below their targeted profit %.

This is nonsense. If the competitive marketplace does not support the ability of a single seller to maintain a specific profit margin goal as their costs increase (or as their competitors cut prices), then the seller cannot both meet that goal AND maintain market share. Period.
Words like undercutting and market dumping are coming to mind right now.
The fact is that competition in a rising cost environment forces sellers to narrow their profit margins.

edited nested quotes

Uhh... if the marketplace as a whole sees these cost increases - damn straight they can maintain it and it's market share. 7-10% isn't narrow enough? Also, "competition" isn't at play here as much as it would be in other markets.

 

[Slew Foot]

Originally posted by: SSSnail
"I see your $600 tax-rebate-check-to-buy votes from stupid Americans and raise you $1000 take-from-oil-rich-companies-because-they're-evil promise check; vote for me because I'll change your miserable lives, I'll make you RICH! Don't you want to be rich? Change, yes we can! Gosh Americans are so stupid, you can buy them with nothing more than a song and dance - hey, turn that microphone off".

And dont listen to that stupid gas tax holiday nonsense, the gas companies will just raise their prices.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Slew Foot

Originally posted by: SSSnail
"I see your $600 tax-rebate-check-to-buy votes from stupid Americans and raise you $1000 take-from-oil-rich-companies-because-they're-evil promise check; vote for me because I'll change your miserable lives, I'll make you RICH! Don't you want to be rich? Change, yes we can! Gosh Americans are so stupid, you can buy them with nothing more than a song and dance - hey, turn that microphone off".

And dont listen to that stupid gas tax holiday nonsense, the gas companies will just raise their prices.

At the time the gas tax holiday was proposed, gas prices were increasing faster each week than the tax holiday would have saved. And in the meantime, my metro area is in desperate need of the highway funds that would have been lost.

In the meantime, I don't fault Obama for running a populist campaign. That's just what Democrats do. OTOH, I do fault McCain for running a populist campaign because that is supposed to be contrary to everything American conservatives stand for.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Vic

Wrong. Such costs don't increase prices when market prices are already very profitable, as they are now. Econ 101, buddy. Sellers only pass on costs to consumers via prices when they have to in order to remain profitable.

i think you need to take the advanced 101 econ class.

No, he's right. This is why the argument 'the tax will just be passed onto consumers' is a crock. If that were true, we should never tax any corporation or business ever because it's simply a waste of time and that's obviously not the case. This really is economics 101.

uh, no, he's not. i gave the eco 101 explanation. BOTH sellers and buyers end up paying. i don't know what about that is so hard to figure out.

You're wrong. I will give you an extremely simple example. If your profit now is $100 taxed at 25%. Your profit doubles and I double your tax to 50%. So your profit increases nevertheless, will you increase your prices to pickup lost profit? Let's say your profit decreases, will you still increase prices? In a competitive environment you won't lest you want your customers going elsewhere. In neither case has your cost increased one penny.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Vic
The biggest problem IMO with politics in the US is that there's socialists on one side, fascists on the other, and both sides fancy themselves lovers of freedom and democracy. It's a crock.

And look who is talking.

Sometimes you gotta take a stand, bamacre. You can't sit on the sidelines complaining forever and clinging to ideological principle, especially when you have a situation like now where the balance of power is tipping way too far to one side. If the Republicans win this year, despite all the clear damage that Bush and his cronies have done to the country and the ideals it was founded upon, then this country WILL slide into fascist slavery, endless imperialistic wars, and theocracy.

Very true I guess. Better socialism than fascism like you say. I'll vote for Obama and pretend I support freedom and democracy.

I didn't say better socialism than fascism. What I said is that, in this environment, the best way to to support freedom and democracy is by working to keep any single faction from becoming too powerful.

LOL, by voting for Obama to preside with a Democrat-controlled Congress?

:laugh:

Sorry, Vic, you know I like and respect you for what you provide here at P&N, but I'm gonna ride your ass for supporting Obama. It sure is bringing out some interesting and ironic posts.

:laugh:

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Vic
The biggest problem IMO with politics in the US is that there's socialists on one side, fascists on the other, and both sides fancy themselves lovers of freedom and democracy. It's a crock.

And look who is talking.

Sometimes you gotta take a stand, bamacre. You can't sit on the sidelines complaining forever and clinging to ideological principle, especially when you have a situation like now where the balance of power is tipping way too far to one side. If the Republicans win this year, despite all the clear damage that Bush and his cronies have done to the country and the ideals it was founded upon, then this country WILL slide into fascist slavery, endless imperialistic wars, and theocracy.

Very true I guess. Better socialism than fascism like you say. I'll vote for Obama and pretend I support freedom and democracy.

I didn't say better socialism than fascism. What I said is that, in this environment, the best way to to support freedom and democracy is by working to keep any single faction from becoming too powerful.

LOL, by voting for Obama to preside with a Democrat-controlled Congress?

:laugh:

Sorry, Vic, you know I like and respect you for what you provide here at P&N, but I'm gonna ride your ass for supporting Obama. It sure is bringing out some interesting and ironic posts.

:laugh:

If after 8 years of GW Bush, the most unpopular President in modern history, the Republicans are still able to hold onto the Presidency and the Executive, then yes, that would represent a dramatic unbalancing of power regardless of which party holds a thin majority in Congress.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Hoi long do you think it will take to recover the costs from the windfall taxes.

And to you expect that the government will remove the tax afterwards?

When the automakers or tobacco companies were making money hand over fist, did they have extra taxes applied to them?

It is just a politcal feel good grab to buy votes.