obama Administration Gives Immunity To Mumbai Massacre-ISI

Apr 27, 2012
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On November 26,2008 jihadists staged a terrorist attack on India and killed 164 people and injured 308. They were specifically told by their handlers that the Jews were the most important targets and they were worth 50 times those of non-Jews.

India has alleged that the ISI in Pakistan played a role in this and worked with the LET.

The obama administration/US government will be giving US immunity to the ISI

The Indian statement was in response to an affidavit filed in a US court earlier in the week in which the US government said Pakistan’s ISI and its former chiefs, Ahmed Shuja Pasha and Nadeem Taj, “enjoy immunity” in the Mumbai attacks.
Why is obama giving immunity to them, Is he too afraid to call them out and attack radical Islam.

They shouldn't be getting immunity and should be criticized.

Do you think obama was wrong for this and do they deserve to be criticized.


http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/...ai-massacre-savage-masterminds-and-opera.html
 

jhbball

Platinum Member
Mar 20, 2002
2,917
23
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on november 26,2008 jihadists staged a terrorist attack on india and killed 164 people and injured 308. They were specifically told by their handlers that the jews were the most important targets and they were worth 50 times those of non-jews.

India has alleged that the isi in pakistan played a role in this and worked with the let.

The obama administration/us government will be giving us immunity to the isi

why is obama giving immunity to them, is he too afraid to call them out and attack radical islam.

They shouldn't be getting immunity and should be criticized.

Do you think obama was wrong for this and do they deserve to be criticized.


http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/...ai-massacre-savage-masterminds-and-opera.html

derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
Its from atlasshrugs, so its likely complete bullshit.

This times infinity, you have to be a grade a retar----

Originally Posted by incorruptible

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

It's pretty embarrassing that anyone from ATPN would be reposting Pamela Geller material. What next, Anders Breivik?
 
Jan 25, 2011
16,634
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This times infinity, you have to be a grade a retar----



ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

It's pretty embarrassing that anyone from ATPN would be reposting Pamela Geller material. What next, Anders Breivik?

What you are describing would require the ability for independent thought and well...

Originally Posted by incorruptible
 
Apr 27, 2012
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Its from atlasshrugs, so its likely complete bullshit.

That is idiotic, so just because its Pamella Geller its ignored? You wouldn't say this if a leftist reported this. The MSM didn't report this because they defend obama and they will not attack him.
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
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That is idiotic, so just because its Pamella Geller its ignored? You wouldn't say this if a leftist reported this. The MSM didn't report this because they defend obama and they will not attack him.

Its from a site with less journalistic integrity then The Onion. Of course I'm not going to trust it. Especially if its written by a crazy nut like her.
 
Apr 27, 2012
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Its from a site with less journalistic integrity then The Onion. Of course I'm not going to trust it. Especially if its written by a crazy nut like her.

That`s because the media is biased and will protect obama, they aren't going to talk about this unless there forced to. That`s one of the reasons why Pam Geller reports on it.
 
Apr 20, 2008
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That`s because the media is biased and will protect obama, they aren't going to talk about this unless there forced to. That`s one of the reasons why Pam Geller reports on it.

LOL. I assume most people have your posts blocked by now. Just letting you know that the few of us that still can see your posts are laughing at you.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
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That is idiotic, so just because its Pamella Geller its ignored? You wouldn't say this if a leftist reported this. The MSM didn't report this because they defend obama and they will not attack him.

If you want a chance at discussion, try finding a more moderate source, even if you came across it on atlas or whatever site first. By not sourcing from a somewhat agreeable source, the thread will devolve into anything but a discussion on the article. You've seen this yourself many times from your own threads, right? So why not just take a second and find the same news on another site?

Go to news.google.com, and search for "ISI immunity". There are many articles on this from other newspapers, including some english language papers in India which would also provide an international perspective.

I do believe this qualifies as a ProTip.
 
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Apr 27, 2012
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If you want a chance at discussion, try finding a more moderate source, even if you came across it on atlas or whatever site first. By not sourcing from a somewhat agreeable source, the thread will devolve into anything but a discussion on the article. You've seen this yourself many times from your own threads, right? So why not just take a second and find the same news on another site?

Go to news.google.com, and search for "ISI immunity". There are many articles on this from other newspapers, including some english language papers in India which would also provide an international perspective.

I do believe this qualifies as a ProTip.

First Pam Geller is a good source, the people attacking her are the same people who dont criticize radical Islam and by doing so support it.

Here are some new sources

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...mmunity-in-26-11-case-US/Article1-976625.aspx

http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...7_1_mumbai-terror-sponsors-terrorism-immunity

Here are some new sources then
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
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First Pam Geller is a good source, the people attacking her are the same people who dont criticize radical Islam and by doing so support it.

Here are some new sources

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...mmunity-in-26-11-case-US/Article1-976625.aspx

http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...7_1_mumbai-terror-sponsors-terrorism-immunity

Here are some new sources then

That may or may not be true, but it is beside the point. A neutral sourced article will generate better discussion than one from a site viewed as heavily skewed to the right OR left.

Just the way things are, otherwise people just attack the source.
 
Apr 27, 2012
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That may or may not be true, but it is beside the point. A neutral sourced article will generate better discussion than one from a site viewed as heavily skewed to the right OR left.

Just the way things are, otherwise people just attack the source.

I still believe she is a good source BUT I got you two new sources, both are from India and English papers.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
24
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Yeah, India is known for its impartiality when it comes to Pakistan.

Did you even read either of the India sourced articles? I read the second one that was linked a few posts up, and it seemed fine to me, even saying that the US decision to grant the immunity is due to the FSIA.

In fact the article seemed quite bland.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Did you even read either of the India sourced articles? I read the second one that was linked a few posts up, and it seemed fine to me, even saying that the US decision to grant the immunity is due to the FSIA.

In fact the article seemed quite bland.
I think it should really read "Obama administration says ISI has immunity" rather than "Obama administration gives immunity . . ."

Frankly I'm not all that comfortable with even citizens civilly suing Pakistan in America for crimes committed in India, even though I think the Pakistani government in general and the ISI in particular are pretty much evil incarnate. I'd rather see them petitioning the federal government for redress - not that either of the actions will do anything. Other than that, we should get out of Afghanistan, cut all aid to Pakistan, and put them on the terrorist nation list where they belong.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
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Another ignorant leftist who doesn't even read the article but just makes assumptions.

Not every Indian or Pakistani is a bigot but I think it a fair assumption to say that in the India vs Pakistan, thingi, Indians generally align with pro Indian points of view and Pakistanis with pro Pakistani views.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
On November 26,2008 jihadists staged a terrorist attack on India and killed 164 people and injured 308. They were specifically told by their handlers that the Jews were the most important targets and they were worth 50 times those of non-Jews.

India has alleged that the ISI in Pakistan played a role in this and worked with the LET.

The obama administration/US government will be giving US immunity to the ISI

Why is obama giving immunity to them, Is he too afraid to call them out and attack radical Islam.

They shouldn't be getting immunity and should be criticized.

Do you think obama was wrong for this and do they deserve to be criticized.
-snip-

This seems much more complicated than the article makes out. It may be that the Obama Admin's affidavit is not at all what it first seems.

About the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, the law codifying immunity:

Link for all below info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Sovereign_Immunities_Act

The Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA) of 1976 is a United States law, codified at Title 28, §§ 1330, 1332, 1391(f), 1441(d), and 1602-1611 of the United States Code, that establishes the limitations as to whether a foreign sovereign nation (or its political subdivisions, agencies, or instrumentalities) may be sued in U.S. courts—federal or state. It also establishes specific procedures for service of process and attachment of property for proceedings against a Foreign State. The FSIA provides the exclusive basis and means to bring a lawsuit against a foreign sovereign in the United States.

Sovereign Immunity has long been the norm in U.S. courts. In an early case, the Supreme Court held that a private party could not sue the government of France. (That case was in 1812.)

So, there's nothing new about sovereign immunity.

Now, this part below may tell us why the Obama Admin issued the affidavit:

In passing the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act in 1976, Congress largely codified the Restrictive Theory of Immunity, but, in an effort to de-politicize sovereign immunity determinations, it vested the courts (rather than the Executive) with authority to determine whether a Foreign State is entitled to immunity. Though the Act places the determination of sovereign immunity fully in the hands of the judiciary, many courts have expressed reluctance to find that a defendant is a sovereign if the "state" in question is one that the U.S. government has not officially recognized, even if the defendant may arguably satisfy the definition of statehood under international law.

So, it seems that the Admin is just admitting that the US govt recognizes Pakistan and the ISI as foreign sovereigns. There is nothing unusual or odd about this. And I think it likely that the Pakistan govt subpoenaed the US govt to confirm that their sovereign state status was officially recognized by the US govt.


Now, just being a foreign sovereign under the law doesn't mean they cannot be sued in US federal court. See below:

Under the FSIA, the burden of proof is initially on the defendant to establish that it is a "Foreign State," under the FSIA and therefore entitled to sovereign immunity. "Foreign State" is defined at 28 U.S.C. § 1603(a),(b). Once the defendant establishes that it is a Foreign State, for the lawsuit to proceed, the plaintiff must prove that one of the Act's exceptions to immunity apply. The exceptions are listed at 28 U.S.C. §§ 1605, 1605A, and 1607. The most common exceptions are when the Foreign State waives immunity (§ 1605(a)(1)) or agrees to submit a dispute to arbitration (§ 1605(a)(6)), engages in a commercial activity (§ 1605(a)(2)), commits a tort in the United States (such as a common traffic accident case) (§ 1605(a)(5)) or expropriates property in violation of international law (§ 1605(a)(3)). The FSIA also excludes immunity in cases involving certain counterclaims (§ 1607) and admiralty claims (§ 1605(b)). In addition, exceptions for torture, extrajudicial killing, aircraft sabotage and hostage-taking were added by amendment to the FSIA in connection with anti-terrorism law and updated again in 2008.

So, it would appear that Pakistan (and by extension the ISI) subpoenaed the US govt for an affidavit demonstrating they are are a sovereign state under the law.

Now, it looks to be the plaintiffs' job to demonstrate that their suit meets one of the exceptions under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act so the lawsuit can proceed.

Cliffs:

- Obama admin did not 'give' immunity. It merely attested that Pakistan (and the ISI) is a sovereign state as recognized by the USA.

- The federal court will recognize that Pakistan is covered under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act.

- The plaintiffs must demonstrate that they can sue Pakistan under one of the exceptions in the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act.

- I.e., we're looking at routine court procedure.

Fern
 
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