Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: ironwing
Originally posted by: Genx87
SS is an entitlement program. If it were an insurance program it would require one to qualify for its benefits. The only qualification is age. And what besides disability does it insure?
This is incorrect. To recieve SS retirement benefits one needs at least 40 quarters of qualifying employement. Disability/widow/orphan benefits.
Answer the second part, what exactly besides disability does it insure exactly?
Originally posted by: Genx87
Besides the obvious being it is a blanket program that is doomed to failure due to demographics?
A welfare like system would serve us better. Make people qualify for benefits.
I'm playing devil's advocate, but IF the party wanted to they could go after that stuff as you say and give it back to the people. Afterall, there's that quote about democracy being valid until the people realize they can vote themselves the riches, right? I doubt it will happen, but since poor and middle class people don't have much in 401ks and they do have most of the votes, in a worse case scenario it could happen.Originally posted by: ProfJohn
He is NOT going to nationalize them, that would be a disaster of epic nature. After that the Democrats would never win another race in 20+ years. It would essentially amount to the government stealing the money from everyone with a 401k.
What they MAY do though is tax peoples 401k in ways they have not been taxed before. 401k are tax free to some degree and they could take that away. Or if they got bold, and crazy, they could go after past gains that were not taxed. But again, that would be a death blow to the party.
Think about this... in 1993 Democrats passed a tax increase that was retroactive back to the first of that year and there was HUGE outrage and lawsuits over it. Now imagine they try passing a bill to tax 401k gains seen in prior YEARS. People would go nuts over it.
That's brutal.in 1993 Democrats passed a tax increase that was retroactive back to the first of that year
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
He is NOT going to nationalize them, that would be a disaster of epic nature. After that the Democrats would never win another race in 20+ years. It would essentially amount to the government stealing the money from everyone with a 401k.
What they MAY do though is tax peoples 401k in ways they have not been taxed before. 401k are tax free to some degree and they could take that away. Or if they got bold, and crazy, they could go after past gains that were not taxed. But again, that would be a death blow to the party.
Think about this... in 1993 Democrats passed a tax increase that was retroactive back to the first of that year and there was HUGE outrage and lawsuits over it. Now imagine they try passing a bill to tax 401k gains seen in prior YEARS. People would go nuts over it.
Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont know if this is an Obama plan. However a democrat senator was talking about a plan to move people onto a program like Federal Thrift plan. There was a thread about it maybe 3 weeks ago.
I laughed my fucking ass off at it as well since that is exactly what many on the right have been advocating as a replacement for the current SS system. They pissed and moaned about doing any kind of privatizing of the system then change their mind when a democrat majority + democrat president will be in power.
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
He is NOT going to nationalize them, that would be a disaster of epic nature. After that the Democrats would never win another race in 20+ years. It would essentially amount to the government stealing the money from everyone with a 401k.
What they MAY do though is tax peoples 401k in ways they have not been taxed before. 401k are tax free to some degree and they could take that away. Or if they got bold, and crazy, they could go after past gains that were not taxed. But again, that would be a death blow to the party.
Think about this... in 1993 Democrats passed a tax increase that was retroactive back to the first of that year and there was HUGE outrage and lawsuits over it. Now imagine they try passing a bill to tax 401k gains seen in prior YEARS. People would go nuts over it.
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Genx87
Besides the obvious being it is a blanket program that is doomed to failure due to demographics?
A welfare like system would serve us better. Make people qualify for benefits.
What you propose is a slippery slope and it all depends on who is running the show and the details of those qualifications. I am not sure where I stand on that one because it is opening Pandora's box so to speak. You can start out with a reasonable set of qualifications but if those are ever changed too much to appease conservatives with a lot of money too much then it could get really nasty.
All I know is that I want something consistent, solid, and little to no risk. It must to be a backup plan for everyone that needs it and everyone that needs it must not find it troublesome to get it.
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont know if this is an Obama plan. However a democrat senator was talking about a plan to move people onto a program like Federal Thrift plan. There was a thread about it maybe 3 weeks ago.
I laughed my fucking ass off at it as well since that is exactly what many on the right have been advocating as a replacement for the current SS system. They pissed and moaned about doing any kind of privatizing of the system then change their mind when a democrat majority + democrat president will be in power.
Funny the government workers don't even pay into social security. You're right, they pay into the thrift program. It's much better than SS.
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: ironwing
Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont know if this is an Obama plan. However a democrat senator was talking about a plan to move people onto a program like Federal Thrift plan. There was a thread about it maybe 3 weeks ago.
I laughed my fucking ass off at it as well since that is exactly what many on the right have been advocating as a replacement for the current SS system. They pissed and moaned about doing any kind of privatizing of the system then change their mind when a democrat majority + democrat president will be in power.
Apples and oranges. 401ks are retirement accounts, SS in an insurance program. Folks tend to forget that when comparing SS returns to stock market returns. They are two different animals. When's the last time you heard someone complain about the return on their auto insurance? Note that I don't support the idea of a TSP for all program.
SS is not an insurance program. it was sold as that originally but it is no longer one. it's a forced savings account at a crappy rate that you may not have access to if congress changes its mind.
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Genx87
Besides the obvious being it is a blanket program that is doomed to failure due to demographics?
A welfare like system would serve us better. Make people qualify for benefits.
What you propose is a slippery slope and it all depends on who is running the show and the details of those qualifications. I am not sure where I stand on that one because it is opening Pandora's box so to speak. You can start out with a reasonable set of qualifications but if those are ever changed too much to appease conservatives with a lot of money too much then it could get really nasty.
All I know is that I want something consistent, solid, and little to no risk. It must to be a backup plan for everyone that needs it and everyone that needs it must not find it troublesome to get it.
It isnt difficult. How do people currently qualify for Welfare? The funny thing about SS is since it is a blanket program people who dont need it recieve its benefits. That cost hurts the people who need it the most. For an example a friend of mine's grandmother died. His grandpa recieved her SS benefits at 2K\month. The guy owned a multi-million dollar supply company. Does he need a SS check every month?
Implement a qualifying litmus test and you can lop off a nice % from the system. Use it as a safety net, not as a thank you for 40 years of service blanket retirement system.
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
He is NOT going to nationalize them, that would be a disaster of epic nature. After that the Democrats would never win another race in 20+ years. It would essentially amount to the government stealing the money from everyone with a 401k.
What they MAY do though is tax peoples 401k in ways they have not been taxed before. 401k are tax free to some degree and they could take that away. Or if they got bold, and crazy, they could go after past gains that were not taxed. But again, that would be a death blow to the party.
Think about this... in 1993 Democrats passed a tax increase that was retroactive back to the first of that year and there was HUGE outrage and lawsuits over it. Now imagine they try passing a bill to tax 401k gains seen in prior YEARS. People would go nuts over it.
Originally posted by: JS80
I hope Obama gets a supermajority congress and starts acting Chavez. That way we can have a real revolution and burn down the capitol. I think history will show that democracy almost inevitably leads to socialist fascism.
Originally posted by: JS80
I hope Obama gets a supermajority congress and starts acting Chavez. That way we can have a real revolution and burn down the capitol. I think history will show that democracy almost inevitably leads to socialist fascism.
Originally posted by: AWVigo
Originally posted by: JS80
I hope Obama gets a supermajority congress and starts acting Chavez. That way we can have a real revolution and burn down the capitol. I think history will show that democracy almost inevitably leads to socialist fascism.
... wow ... keep up that good work there.
You fail at humanity.
Darn I miss the real Republican party, you know the one that offered moderation and true conservatism (when conservatism did not = God/Bail Outs/and baby killer crys).
Will the real Republicans please stand up?
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: AWVigo
Originally posted by: JS80
I hope Obama gets a supermajority congress and starts acting Chavez. That way we can have a real revolution and burn down the capitol. I think history will show that democracy almost inevitably leads to socialist fascism.
... wow ... keep up that good work there.
You fail at humanity.
Darn I miss the real Republican party, you know the one that offered moderation and true conservatism (when conservatism did not = God/Bail Outs/and baby killer crys).
Will the real Republicans please stand up?
I bet that's what the British sympathizers said about the American Revolutionaries.