Obama at Columbia

[Nemesis 1]

We have a birther in the house........

No we don't. We have someone who questions why a harvard law student will not allow his records to be reviewed. Like when did he re apply for citizen ship after giving up his US citizen ship . and did he attend school here as a foreign exchange student . These may be annoying questions to you . But to me they are interesting questions that I wish all americans new amswers to . As judgement will clearly be seen more clearly if the haze is removed.Did american retards elect a man of many lies and will they stick with him . Much judgement rides upon this question and the true resulting answers.

 

[cybrsage]

He never gave up his citizenship. A parent cannot give up the citizenship of a child and the requirements to give up citizenship require that it must be the intent of the citizen to give it up.

This is to prevent a POW from renouncing his citizenship under torture, as an egregious example.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Yep. Seems to be true of most of his supporters too (not that there are very many people who actually like Romney, mind you -- so perhaps "supporter" isn't the right word.)

It's sad that a man so dishonest that he makes other politicians look good by comparison even has a chance at becoming president.



It would be a good idea, but I don't see any practical and legal way to implement it.

The alternative, in a way, is "trial in the court of public opinion", which is what is going on right now. Romney is losing his trial when it comes to tax returns, and for good reason. Obama is winning his on the subject of his college transcripts -- the only people calling for them are those who have hated him for years and would never vote for him under any circumstances.

BS our whole organization is voting Obummer and make no mistake we hate this guy . But we LOVE our american sheep and want them to have the sheppard they so rightly deserve and we are doing our part to make that happen . Its for our own good that light should enter the darkness

 

[TerryMathews]

Romney's tax returns are relevant in that he has proposed a tax plan which includes yet more tax cuts for the wealthiest citizens, and opposed any measures that might include in any way increasing their taxes or eliminating tax shelters (the latter, ironically enough, is a position his running mate supports). If, as appears highly likely, he has paid few or no income taxes in recent years, it will really undercut the proposition he is advancing - that the wealthiest need additional tax relief in the larger best interests of the economy. In addition, to the extent he has participated in offshore tax sheltering activities of marginal or questionable legality, it would reflect adversely on his character, at least in my opinion. It is for this latter reason - character - that modern Presidential candidates have generally opened up their finances to public scrutiny.

As George Will and many others have written, the fact that Romney refuses to do so leads to the inevitable conclusion that he feels the blowback which would result from the public airing of whatever is in his tax returns is worse than the heat he is taking for not releasing them. It seems all but certain, for this reason, that the returns contain something very negative, or he would release them.

The thing is, you don't really want any of this explained in my view. You, like so many Romney apologists, prefer to treat this as a non-issue because it makes you deeply uncomfortable. It's really unseemly and intellectually dishonest.

As an aside, it's remarkable how you are so attached to using a word you don't know how to spell. It makes you look foolish IMO. "Loony" and looney" are permissible spellings - "loonie" is not (unless you're talking about the Canadian dollar, which as far as I know is not relevant to this discussion).

DVC, can you see that the crux of your argument (fear of the truth being worse than the suspicion) is largely the same argument there birthers used prior to the release of the long form certificate?

I'm not saying the issues are identical. Only that there is an ancillary parallel and the difference in reactions between the two issues based on demographics is "interesting" to say the least.

FWIW, I think he should release. I think all candidates should have a specific set of documents they must release prior to running.

 

[Nemesis 1]

He never gave up his citizenship. A parent cannot give up the citizenship of a child and the requirements to give up citizenship require that it must be the intent of the citizen to give it up.

This is to prevent a POW from renouncing his citizenship under torture, as an egregious example.

To become a citizen of indonsia you have to give up all other citzenships the Boy was adopted and lived in indonsia and was of muslim faith and toutored by commies. Prove otherwise!

 

[emperus]

I guess his college transcripts will help us decide whether he will be a good president. Oh wait, he has been president for 3.5 years.

 

[cybrsage]

To become a citizen of indonsia you have to give up all other citzenships the Boy was adopted and lived in indonsia and was of muslim faith and toutored by commies. Prove otherwise!

B. ELEMENTS OF RENUNCIATION
A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:

1. appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
2. in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
3. sign an oath of renunciation

Renunciations that do not meet the conditions described above have no legal effect. Because of the provisions of section 349(a)(5), Americans cannot effectively renounce their citizenship by mail, through an agent, or while in the United States. In fact, U.S. courts have held certain attempts to renounce U.S. citizenship to be ineffective on a variety of grounds, as discussed below.

F. RENUNCIATION FOR MINOR CHILDREN
Parents cannot renounce U.S. citizenship on behalf of their minor children. Before an oath of renunciation will be administered under Section 349(a)(5) of the INA, a person under the age of eighteen must convince a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer that he/she fully understands the nature and consequences of the oath of renunciation, is not subject to duress or undue influence, and is voluntarily seeking to renounce his/her U.S. citizenship.

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html

 

[cybrsage]

I guess his college transcripts will help us decide whether he will be a good president. Oh wait, he has been president for 3.5 years.

Yeah, we already know he will be a bad president, given the last 3.5 years.

 

[Nemesis 1]

He never gave up his citizenship. A parent cannot give up the citizenship of a child and the requirements to give up citizenship require that it must be the intent of the citizen to give it up.

This is to prevent a POW from renouncing his citizenship under torture, as an egregious example.

But in peace time what does it prevent . The boy was adopted to a new father and a new country all legal. I don't care if Obummer crawled out satans ass. I just would like some real facts about how he was fundied in those earlier years and did he apply as foreighn exchange student . the answers are in those transcripts .

 

[cybrsage]

It is true that if he applied as a foreignor, when he is obviously not, it would show his very poorly at the least, and might be a criminal act at the most.

I do not believe he did...but if we use the logic of the returners, he must be hiding something horrible for not releasing them.

 

[Capt Caveman]

To become a citizen of indonsia you have to give up all other citzenships the Boy was adopted and lived in indonsia and was of muslim faith and toutored by commies. Prove otherwise!

Prove he was a citizen of Indonesia. Oh wait, you're one of those delusional Ron Paul people. Lies and ignorance is what keep you folks going.

Ron Paul is really Canadian, prove otherwise!

 

[Nemesis 1]

The Burden of proof lies with you. This is a small man with low morals and no good ideas . He is bankrupt in every way that is possiable given the world we live in . Do I want starving children to be ahead of weapons manufactoring in the real world? Yes I do . But thats not the world we live in . doing socialistic type preventive movies in our society is a brain dead Idea. As our system cann't function under the overbearing weight of the useless rags that claim to be apart of society.

 

[Capt Caveman]

The Burden of proof lies with you. This is a small man with low morals and no good ideas . He is bankrupt in every way that is possiable given the world we live in . Do I want starving children to be ahead of weapons manufactoring in the real world? Yes I do . But thats not the world we live in . doing socialistic type preventive movies in our society is a brain dead Idea. As our system cann't function under the overbearing weight of the useless rags that claim to be apart of society.

Actually, no, the burden of proof is on you. Obama is the President of the United States of America and has met all of the qualifications to be the President.

You and other nuts have made numerous lies and accusations but can't prove a single one of them. The GOP, SCOTUS, etc disagree with you also.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Link to documents that are not fake.

You need a link to a reality which isn't fake.

 

[DrPizza]

I find it notable that you are almost hysterically deriding everyone who wants Romney to release his returns, but ignore all comments about how Romney himself makes this exact demand of others.

This.

Cybrsage, why do you keep avoiding this question? Every time someone asks you to, you seem to go off on a huge tangent about how Obama's transcripts might show that he applied as a foreign citizen. For what it's worth, if you had your own college transcripts, you'd see that there's no indication of scholarships on the transcripts.

 

[monovillage]

This.

Cybrsage, why do you keep avoiding this question?

Maybe because this is an Obama at Columbia thread instead of an anti-Romney thread? Just maybe ya think?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

This.

Cybrsage, why do you keep avoiding this question?

I assume he would say that it doesn't matter what Romney wants from other candidates, just as it didn't matter what his father thought was important - what matters is whether the returns are of demonstrable importance. I find this a rather bizarre argument in light of the fact that, well, Romney is the one running for President, and the one who refuses to release his own returns, but I can't imagine what better argument he could come up with.

 

[CitizenKain]

The Burden of proof lies with you. This is a small man with low morals and no good ideas . He is bankrupt in every way that is possiable given the world we live in . Do I want starving children to be ahead of weapons manufactoring in the real world? Yes I do . But thats not the world we live in . doing socialistic type preventive movies in our society is a brain dead Idea. As our system cann't function under the overbearing weight of the useless rags that claim to be apart of society.

You are a liar and a charlatan, yet you demand the truth from another while lying to yourself?

 

[DrPizza]

Maybe because this is an Obama at Columbia thread instead of an anti-Romney thread? Just maybe ya think?

My bad - the Obama's college record wasn't necessarily a tangent.
However, the premise of this thread:

Romney should release his tax returns if Obama releases his Columbia University records.

is that there is some equivalence between the two. If you want an equivalence, how about "Romney should release his tax returns if Obama releases his *tax returns*."

ALL of the recent Presidential candidates from both major parties have released quite a few years worth of tax returns, because many people feel these are relevant. Romney himself has asked other opponents to release their tax raturns, feeling that they were relevant. But, Romney himself refuses to release his own.

 

[monovillage]

It's just that you can't throw a rock in the forest (or a post in this forum) without some partisan shouting "We want Romney to release some of his tax records!"

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

It's just that you can't throw a rock in the forest (or a post in this forum) without some partisan shouting "We want Romney to release some of his tax records!"

Either that, or Romney's tax records are at the heart of this dopey thread. From the OP:

Romney should release his tax returns if Obama releases his Columbia University records.

Ironically, I am quite confident, based on his position to date, that Romney would not release his tax returns even if Obama released every test, every notebook, every report card, and every Valentine's Day or Mother's Day card he created at school, from kindergarten through law school.

 

[monovillage]

Either that, or Romney's tax records are at the heart of this dopey thread. From the OP:



Ironically, I am quite confident, based on his position to date, that Romney would not release his tax returns even if Obama released every test, every notebook, every report card, and every Valentine's Day or Mother's Day card he created at school, from kindergarten through law school.

Sorry about that pebble I tossed.

 

[Aegeon]

So you say he should follow tax law except where you personally think he should not, then he should not do as you do and pay the required amount of taxes, but more taxes instead to show he is "ethical"?

That would show stupidity instead.

While presumably you actually know better, there is a massive difference between merely following the technical letter of the law and always engaging in entirely moral and ethical behavior. Many people would say there certainly can be cases where a tax loophole clearly was never intended to be available and truly ethical behavior would be not to take advantage of it before Congress has time to fix the issue, especially if you're so rich not to need the extra money. (Its simply ultimately a matter of putting your country first instead of purely your own interests among other things.)

Can you be more specific, cite examples of what you mean (even if you make them up). Not sure what you are saying here.

This really should not be that hard to grasp the basic concept. While this example appears to involve companies rather than private citizens, it seems to apply the apply the basic concept I am talking about.
http://neal.house.gov/index.php?opt...lled-insurers&catid=1:press-releases&Itemid=8

Here is an example which clearly applies in some instances to regular private individuals who own a business, and while its true Congress has not closed this loophole, if you're not making use of the larger vehicle's capabilities with your business its a rather clear instance of abuse of a tax loophole, although not as extreme as some examples given Congress has let it stay in place and the actual benefit of the loophole is not as great as other cases.

Ever wondered why you see so many SUVs on the road when gas is over $3/ gallon? The luxury car IRS limitations disappear when the company vehicle’s gross weight exceeds 6000 pounds. This demonstrates another typical aspect of tax loopholes CPA see: there is no true tax savings. With SUVs, the deduction just comes quicker. With a non SUV business vehicle, your company still (usually) writes off the entire cost of the vehicle, it just takes longer. If your business needs an SUV, great. But many businesses don’t, and they spend thousands more for a vehicle and then hundreds more a year to fuel it.

http://cpawilmingtonnc.org/tax-loopholes-a-cpa-list/

(The point is some people are getting the government to effectively support through a tax break their luxury SUV habit rather than using the vehicle for actual business needs as clearly originally intended. In fact initially the law clearly was more directed at trucks and the like with the assumption businesses would be actually using them.)

Specific most likely good examples involving Romney would take research regarding historical tax law, and frankly it be more straightforward to simply let people see his prior tax returns and if he actually did so or not and under what circumstances.

Maybe he is a returner. We cannot say since he is dead and cannot talk about it to us. His position was one of the conspiracy theorist, though, which would make him a loonie returner if the quotes posted are not taken out of context to make sound bites. The "cause he must be hiding something" reason is a loonie conspiracy reason.

Ok you're now on record as dissing Romney's father as a conspiracy theorist on the subject. You're also rather pretty plainly labeling George Will as a conspiracy theorist given he said the following on the subject.

“The cost of not releasing the returns are clear,” Will said. “Therefore, he must have calculated that there are higher costs in releasing them.”

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...d-blast-romney-for-not-releasing-tax-returns/

We could go through a long list of respected conservatives who have said similar things on this subject.

We know that most of his income is from investments due to knowing what his pay is for being a governor. He has been governor for almost 10 years, and his pay is public record. It does not take a nuclear engineer to figure out that his federal income tax burden will be much closer to 15% than 30% for the last decade. With the exact numbers, you could say it has been 14.2% or 16.1%, but that is so close to 15% that it makes no effective difference. That is why it is a loonie position to demand the exact numbers.

The reality is different sorts of investment income are treated differently tax wise, so to give an obvious clear example, normal non-treasury bonds interest is taxed at a higher rate than the 15% number you're talking about. Of course your basic position implying it could have only gone down to 14.2 is preposterous given that while we know Romney paid 13.9% in taxes in 2010, there are also a wide array of ways to possibly evade or get additional tax deductions on income when you're rich. You're basically pretending there are no tax loopholes or available deductions beyond the 15% rate which is nonsense, and ignoring Romney specifically said "he can't remember" if he paid less than 13.9% in taxes in previous years. This is obviously different than saying something along the lines that he sure he never paid anything measurably less than this rate wise.

You're simply making a bogus claim on this point regarding our knowledge of what Romney paid in taxes which ignores the actual realities of tax laws.

 

[werepossum]

Romney should release his tax returns if Obama releases his Columbia University records.

"Here’s my gut belief: Obama got a leg up by being admitted to both Occidental and Columbia as a foreign exchange student. He was raised as a young boy in Indonesia. But did his mother ever change him back to a U.S. citizen? When he returned to live with his grandparents in Hawaii or as he neared college-age preparing to apply to schools, did he ever change his citizenship back? I’m betting not.

If you could unseal Obama’s Columbia University records I believe you’d find that:
A) He rarely ever attended class.
B) His grades were not those typical of what we understand it takes to get into Harvard Law School.
C) He attended Columbia as a foreign exchange student.
D) He paid little for either undergraduate college or Harvard Law School because of foreign aid and scholarships given to a poor foreign students like this kid Barry Soetoro from Indonesia."


-Wayne Allyn Root

I totally agree with you - in 2008. Then Obama had do literally nothing to qualify him above any other citizen of age. In 2012 though we have almost four years of experience under the world's biggest microscope by which to grade his performance and judge his character. At this point his college records are as relevant as his shoe size.

I'd like to see Romney parley releasing his tax records into a requirement that EVERY Congressional candidate and federal nominee do the same. Since I suspect the Republicans would no more support that would Reid, I don't see that happening. Regardless, I'm fine if I never see Romney's tax records, as he too has an extensive public record by which to evaluate him.