Obama Care is a disaster

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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
Attack the source? How old are you?

Old enough to know that the value of an article that is entirely opinion -- there's not one hard fact backed up with a reference there -- rests solely on the credibility of the author.

Apparently you know nothing about Betsy McCaughey.

That article is like reading an editorial on gun rights by Sarah Brady.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
I literally LOLed when I clicked the link and saw who wrote this.

Let me know when you have credible sources saying the "wheels are coming off".
This is the kind of horse shit post that we've endured from your ilk for years around here. It's what you say when you've got nothing else. Attack the source whether it's the network, the publication, the author, etc. I throw it back at progressives like yourself from time to time to see your reactions. Belittling your sources is great entertainment.

You're no moderate and we ALL know it.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,745
4,563
136
Hell I could have told you Obamacare would fail. It's a healthcare plan created by Democrats LOL
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
This is the kind of horse shit post that we've endured from your ilk for years around here.

So, it's not okay for me to shoot the messenger, but it's okay for you to?

Betsy McCaughey has been one of the most outspoken critics of Obamacare from the very beginning. I consider her opinions on the subject to be about as meaningful as Rush Limbaugh's.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Except there is cold hard facts. IRS and CBO datas. Smart lady like me she saw disaster from the beginning. I just use simple economics 101 - when you have more demand (patients) with a fixed supply (HC professionals) prices raise. It's like first rule of business when you have more business than you can handle you raise prices until you are satisfied with work flow. There are no upper limits. She saw other things delving into it from the beginning. So what if she said so from beginning? So did Howard Dead and Congressman Kusinish.

You
're just butt hurt cos your boy is bought and sold? Or brain washed? Do you buy your own HC? Anyone that does like me knows how fucked we're getting
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
I'd rather to back to the 1960s when HC was cheap and you wrote a $10 check to your doctor. My parents didn't even have health insurance with 8 kids until like 1980. Didnt need it. Everything was so damn cheap. But baring that return to a truly capitalist system you must have Euro style or else run away costs occur.
It was cheap because it was nascent. What did a robust course of cancer drugs cost back then? What did an MRI scan cost? What did a knee replacement cost?

Those are trick questions. They cost $0 because they didn't exist.

It's absolutely natural for health care to get more expensive all the time as its abilities grow and we continue to demand it. I think Obamacare is mainly stupid and I expect it's just another stepping stone to socialized care, which really is inevitable IMO.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
Good, let's see them. Backed up with valid sources.

Then you'll have something.

Until then, this is just propaganda from a right-wing book-huckstering Fox News regular.

amazing your a moderator of anything. Maybe the hoffenington post.

But you have the typical liberal mentality; Don't like the message just dismiss the messenger.





Moderator callout.

You may not user a members mod status to make your point.

It has nothing to do with the topic.

This is your only warning on this matter.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director
 
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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
But you have the typical liberal mentality; Don't like the message just dismiss the messenger.

Congratulations -- that's what you just did.

You know, I could go to Media Matters and find articles rebutting her claims. And then if I posted them here, all of you right-wing hacks would... dismiss the messenger.

ETA:

biased author is biased. Once that's figured out in the first few lines its time to stop reading.

How long have you been a liberal?
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
It was cheap because it was nascent. What did a robust course of cancer drugs cost back then? What did an MRI scan cost? What did a knee replacement cost?

Those are trick questions. They cost $0 because they didn't exist.

It's absolutely natural for health care to get more expensive all the time as its abilities grow and we continue to demand it. I think Obamacare is mainly stupid and I expect it's just another stepping stone to socialized care, which really is inevitable IMO.
Taiwan or Germany and anyone in between can provide all those things and more to EVERYONE for half price we give it to only half population. yeah someday we'll wake up and stop the ass rape of Americans. Until then it's gonna get worse. I spend a damn fortune for health insurance and many don't even carry it because cost is so high,small business owners I know even. Even less will will be covered by their employer and employers will pay the trivial fine in this market. Where the employees gonna go? Even less children will be covered because IRS rules make so dependents don't make family coverage mandatory. Again where they gonna go?

I think it's a poison pill. "see govt can't do anything right" will be mantra and you'll never see UHC for a long time. Obama and dems did it on purpose.
 
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nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
They are part of the problem. Congress licensed monopoly middleman sucking off premiums and do nothing for care.

So why don't we cut out all insurance companies since they nothing more than middlemen sucking off premiums?

There are dozens of others though making us unlike Europe or Asia who insure everyone for less than half percapita.

The problem with your liberal Utopian dream is that ~half of healthcare is already by the government. So what you are claiming is the government can provide everyone they are not currently covering for free.

So basically Obama could have said "I have a plan that will cover everyone with health insurance without raising taxes. And everyone who has insurance now will have have more money in there pockets as they will no longer have to buy it, and corporate profits will increase since they can drop benefits".

Why didn't Obama propose this?
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,582
2,817
136
Which specific statements are false?

I'm glad you asked:

Less will be insured than before

I haven't seen one credible source that claims this. Every credible actuarial report I've seen, and I've seen lots (Milliman, Gorman, Kaiser Family Foundation, etc) indicates that insurance coverage will go up, considerably. The estimates of the increase may have been adjusted down, but that means the increase is smaller, not that the total number is smaller, which this statement claims.

and cost 4x as much.

I haven't seen one credible source that claims this. Every credible actuarial report I've seen, and I've seen lots (Milliman, Gorman, Kaiser Family Foundation, etc) indicates that premiums will go, some quite a bit, but average rate increases will be in the double digits and even the most extreme averages will be in the lower triple digits. You might be able to find one outlier with such an incredible increase, but it certainly isn't representative of the population, which your statement would indicate.

insurance will be a lot less affordable than Americans were led to expect,

This is partially true; gross insurance premiums will be much less affordable than initially indicated, but since the demographics the law panders to will get free coverage (Medicaid expansion) or almost free coverage (advance premium tax credits) they will see it as being affordable even though the cost to society isn't. So, really, it's a matter of perspective.

2) fewer people than promised will get insurance and

This is a very fungible claim. There was always a personal choice component in that someone could elect to pay the penalty. If you had said "fewer people than promised will get access to insurance" I would still say it's a fungible claim. Do you consider Medicaid to be "insurance"? Technically, it's not, so the fact that many states won't expand Medicaid means that more people will get access to insurance since those between 100% and 138% FPL who would have been Medicaid eligible will now be eligible for insurance.

3) millions of people who have coverage through a job now will lose it, thanks to the president’s “reforms.”

This was intentional.

Start with the IRS’s new estimate for what the cheapest family plan will cost by 2016: $20,000 a year to cover two adults and three kids. And that will only cover 60 percent of medical bills, so add hefty out-of-pocket costs, too.

I've already gone over this in another thread, but the article this claim stems from was intellectually dishonest. The IRS never made this claim. The IRS did issue guidelines with examples of how the various calculations worked, and this scenario was an included example, but that is not the same as actually making this as a factual claim.

The next surprise is for parents who thought their kids would be covered by an employer. Sloppy wording in the law left that unclear until last week, when the IRS ruled that kids won’t be covered.

Starting in 2014, the law will require employers with 50 or more full-time employees to offer coverage or pay a penalty. “Affordable” coverage, that is — meaning the employee can’t be told to contribute more than 9.5 percent of his salary. For example, a worker earning $40,000 a year cannot be required to pay more than $3.800.

But the law doesn’t specifically mandate family coverage — and now the administration says that won’t be required.

The premise of these statements is confused and wrong. The IRS did not rule that kids won't be covered. The administration did not say that family coverage won't be required. ACA §1513(a) amends Chapter 43 of IRC to add §4980H(a)(1), which requires employers to "offer full time employees (and their dependents) the opportunity to enroll in minimum essential coverage". Dependent coverage is clearly afforded under the law.

The quoted statements confuse this matter with the regulations offering definitions on the matter, and then makes incorrect assumptions about the applicability.

In defining "dependents" as used in §4980H(a)(1), the IRS followed existed interpretation to determine that the term included children in most forms but did not include spouses.

The IRS regulations did say that the affordability calculation is based only on the employee.

The combination, then, is that children must be offered coverage, but that coverage need not be "affordable". You could certainly lament this outcome, but I point out that this is clearly not the outcome quoted above to illustrate the incorrectness of the quote.
 
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sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,582
2,817
136
Congress licensed monopoly middleman sucking off premiums and do nothing for care.

1. Congress doesn't license health insurers;
2. Health insurance is not a monopolized industry; and
3. Actually, health insurers have generally kept the cost of care down. They use their size to leverage great rates for their customers. Insurance-discounted costs are typically a small percentage of what the care provider's chargemaster would actually dictate.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
Except there is cold hard facts. IRS and CBO datas. Smart lady like me she saw disaster from the beginning. I just use simple economics 101 - when you have more demand (patients) with a fixed supply (HC professionals) prices raise. It's like first rule of business when you have more business than you can handle you raise prices until you are satisfied with work flow. There are no upper limits. She saw other things delving into it from the beginning. So what if she said so from beginning? So did Howard Dead and Congressman Kusinish.

You
're just butt hurt cos your boy is bought and sold? Or brain washed? Do you buy your own HC? Anyone that does like me knows how fucked we're getting

This, exactly.

Two simple rules the left ALWAYS fails to comprehend.

1 - NOTHING is free
2 - Supply and demand sets the price
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Does your pre-existing condition require rx drugs? If so, they'd be a lot cheaper if we didn't have patents and if we didn't have income/payroll taxes.

No they don't because taxes are higher there. Taxes would skyrocket here if single payer came here.

If you add up ALL the taxes you pay its higher thanehat the canucks pay. And what do we the people get for our money?
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,526
15,405
136
I literally LOLed when I clicked the link and saw who wrote this.

Let me know when you have credible sources saying the "wheels are coming off".



Seriously! She's another "think tank" shill.


She was also the voice against health care in the 90's. As you all recall, since no health care reform passed back then, healthcare costs have gone down or at least remained the same...oh wait that's not true at all.
 
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Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
In other news, insurance company and hospital executives continue to receive bonuses and continue to live in posh houses and gated communities. Some of them were even able to purchase second and third homes and additional yachts! Huzzah!
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
81
Nice opinion piece, but I am waiting for the hard Data which will most certainly come out after the ACA is FULLY implemented AFTER 2014.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,584
2,256
126
In other news, insurance company and hospital executives continue to receive bonuses and continue to live in posh houses and gated communities. Some of them were even able to purchase second and third homes and additional yachts! Huzzah!

I can tell you this, my nephew was denied a job because of Obamacare. My friends who worked where I used to have seen a 300% increase in premiums since this law was passed with sky high deductibles. When I started there in 1991 our monthly premium was $5, YOU READ THAT RIGHT, FIVE DOLLARS AND N0/100 PER MONTH FOR HEALTH INSURANCE!!

Yeah, Obamacare did us all good, didnt it?
 
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Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
81
I can tell you this, my nephew was denied a job because of Obamacare. My friends who worked where I used to have seen a 300% increase in premiums since this law was passed with sky high deductibles. When I started there in 1991 our monthly premium was $5, YOU READ THAT RIGHT, FIVE DOLLARS AND N0/100 PER MONTH FOR HEALTH INSURANCE!!

Yeah, Obamacare did us all good, didnt it?

I am trying to remember a time of my 35 years of working in the private sector when my insurance premiums have ever dropped and my benefits had increased. I'll get back to you when I find this data.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,584
2,256
126
I am trying to remember a time of my 35 years of working in the private sector when my insurance premiums have ever dropped and my benefits had increased. I'll get back to you when I find this data.

I worked for the same company for 17 years. If any insurance company tried to increase premiums we would all decide to tolerate it or drop them as a company for someone else. We did well switching companies.

The private market at work. :whiste:
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,584
2,256
126
You aint seen nothing yet. Now that we have had a taste of socialized medicine, wait 'till Our Glorious Leader introduces "Free College Educations!!!", just like they have in some countries in Europe where the prevailing average tax rate is 55%+ to pay for all this "free" stuff. After that will come a mandatory month off for all workers, 35 hour workweeks, retirement at 60, a default in the US debt and currency devaluation. And just like any other socialist paradise we will have 25% unemployment because no one can afford to hire workers (unless you hire illegals and pay cash under the table).
 
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