Obama Has Brought Us to ‘Constitutional Tipping Point’

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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,131
5,658
126
The D's are just as guilty about refusing to play nice. Reid is just as much a stamp your feet child as Boehner. Although critical of Obama's lack of effective leadership Congress on both sides of the aisle are also horrid. This is why a strong President is so important.

The options you suggest are not supported by the Constitution.

We'll see.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,654
10,517
136
What "police actions" are you thinking of?

Fern

Serously?

Korean war that was'nt declared a war by congress.
Viet Nam war that wasn't declared a war by congress.
Iraq war I - Desert storm not dclared a war by congress.
Iraq war II/Afganistan not dcleared a war.

And somewhere between nam and Iraqi I we had ocuppied Lebenon got a bunch of marines killed.

Is that enuogh of a sample? Oh yea the mighty liberation of Grenada.

Forgive my typing I'm Nooking it.
 
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Daverino

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2007
2,004
1
0
Serously?

Korean war that was'nt declared a war by congress.
Viet Nam war that wasn't declared a war by congress.
Iraq war I - Desert storm not dclared a war by congress.
Iraq war II/Afganistan not dcleared a war.

And somewhere between nam and Iraqi I we had ocuppied Lebenon got a bunch of marines killed.

Is that enuogh of a sample? Oh yea the mighty liberation of Grenada.

Forgive my typing I'm Nooking it.

You forgot:
Panama
Bosnia
Kosovo
Libya
Somalia
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Serously?

Korean war that was'nt declared a war by congress.
Viet Nam war that wasn't declared a war by congress.
Iraq war I - Desert storm not dclared a war by congress.
Iraq war II/Afganistan not dcleared a war.

And somewhere between nam and Iraqi I we had ocuppied Lebenon got a bunch of marines killed.

Is that enuogh of a sample? Oh yea the mighty liberation of Grenada.

Forgive my typing I'm Nooking it.

Yeah, seriously.

The Korean War authorized by United Nations Security Council Resolutions and funded by Congress: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_84

Viet Nam was authorized by Congressional resolution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Resolution

The others were authorized by a AUMF (passed by Congress), which serves a Declaration of War for constitutional purposes (affirmed by the SCOTUS)

Typically our "police actions" have been authorized by Congress or the UN etc.

This link is helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States#Other_undeclared_wars

Fern
 
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shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
The D's are just as guilty about refusing to play nice. Reid is just as much a stamp your feet child as Boehner. Although critical of Obama's lack of effective leadership Congress on both sides of the aisle are also horrid. This is why a strong President is so important.

The options you suggest are not supported by the Constitution.

Not "just as guilty" considering the Republicans have doubled ALL PREVIOUS RECORDS when it comes to fillibusters. More false equivalence from the desperate apologists.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Not "just as guilty" considering the Republicans have doubled ALL PREVIOUS RECORDS when it comes to fillibusters. More false equivalence from the desperate apologists.

Well, if filibusters agitate you, you should look up how many bills Reid has 'sat on' so they never get a vote.

Just one guy, Reid, can unilaterally decide to not ever bring up a bill passed by the House or introduced by fellow Senators.

Here's a list of Reid's 'filibusters' as of August 2010: http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/83057-290-bills

While it's an old article it gives one a good idea of how prolific Reid is in terms of 'filibusters'. Quite likely the list is much longer now.

Fern
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
When one Party refuses, there are no options left.

Yes there are. He can follow the law and constitution.

One might make an argument that Obama is within his rights under the Constitution, but you did not. You said he had no choice but to violate it because things aren't moving as you like. Then you say that the courts would decide. Decide what? Why should he listen to them if, with your apparent approval, he does as he pleases all in the cause so to speak. Now if this is indeed your opinion that Obama can hold himself above the Constitution, that's your opinion to which you are entitled, however you have entirely eviscerated the basis for the rule of law in this country by extraordinary subversion and therefore have no right to say others cannot do so as well. You've tossed the establishment clause or any other law, amendment or ruling ever made out the window. I told the Republicans that they would reap what they've sown yet you would go further still. When, not if, those you object to return you will reap the whirlwind. Be it on your head.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,131
5,658
126
Yes there are. He can follow the law and constitution.

One might make an argument that Obama is within his rights under the Constitution, but you did not. You said he had no choice but to violate it because things aren't moving as you like. Then you say that the courts would decide. Decide what? Why should he listen to them if, with your apparent approval, he does as he pleases all in the cause so to speak. Now if this is indeed your opinion that Obama can hold himself above the Constitution, that's your opinion to which you are entitled, however you have entirely eviscerated the basis for the rule of law in this country by extraordinary subversion and therefore have no right to say others cannot do so as well. You've tossed the establishment clause or any other law, amendment or ruling ever made out the window. I told the Republicans that they would reap what they've sown yet you would go further still. When, not if, those you object to return you will reap the whirlwind. Be it on your head.

I did not say that.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
Well, if filibusters agitate you, you should look up how many bills Reid has 'sat on' so they never get a vote.

Just one guy, Reid, can unilaterally decide to not ever bring up a bill passed by the House or introduced by fellow Senators.

Here's a list of Reid's 'filibusters' as of August 2010: http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/83057-290-bills

While it's an old article it gives one a good idea of how prolific Reid is in terms of 'filibusters'. Quite likely the list is much longer now.

Fern

But, but, but that's different! it's different, it's really, really different, because it's OK if it's a Democrat doing it.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,556
2,139
146
Seems to me that portions this "Constitution" we ramble on about are held in abeyance at the convenience of the governing class. About the only thing making it seem like the preeminent governing document of the US this point is the same thing that supports our currency, that is, faith, or belief if you will.

Now we can't have an informed citizenship realizing that much of the Constitution gets violated on a daily basis, that might be destabilizing (as in, bad for business). So my prediction is that the good professor's attempt to lift the veil will quietly be forgotten. Nothing to see here, move along.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,131
5,658
126
So what are you saying then? If I'm misunderstanding you please correct me.

Obama taking these actions is not necessarily violating the Constitution. Especially if you count precedent.

As far as addressing issue, some must be addressed. If the traditional body of Government refuses to address them, it is far better that the President does than doesn't. At the end of the day Government exists to Govern. When it fails to do so the Nation suffers.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
1. He's correct. Executive power has been accelerating for some time and it's gotten worse after 9/11. Leeway granted to the Executive is hardly ever given back. Extra power that Reagan got was inherited by Bush and then Clinton. Extra power that Clinton got was inherited by Bush. Extra power that Bush got was inherited by Obama.

2. A dysfunctional congress accelerates the process. An opposition Congress will pass things at odds with the President, but generally can get the day-to-day business of running the country done. A dysfunctional one, like we have now and had at the end of Bush's administration begs for more Executive power. On the one hand, it's a practical way of getting things done when Congress isn't delivering. Second, if Congress is dysfunctional it cannot be an effective check against the Executive.

3. Congressional testimony tends to be self-serving in the interest of the party in charge of the chamber. It is not surprising that the professor who testified had the same opinions as the Republicans in the House. Otherwise he would not have been asked to testify.

tl;dr Executive power has grown for years, not just under Obama. Pointing it out in a House committee is restating the obvious for political reasons.
Spot on. I'd add that it isn't just the Executive branch either, it's also SCOTUS and Congress whose power is growing unchecked. The latter is obscured at the moment since Congress is split and thus unable to exercise its new-found power, but all the federal government is growing in power. It's the new feudalism. There are some few bright spots though, such as government at most levels giving up its power to exercise a veto over one's choice of spouse. It doesn't help most of us, but government at any level giving up any power is a positive thing.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Obama taking these actions is not necessarily violating the Constitution. Especially if you count precedent.

As far as addressing issue, some must be addressed. If the traditional body of Government refuses to address them, it is far better that the President does than doesn't. At the end of the day Government exists to Govern. When it fails to do so the Nation suffers.
North America long ago split into two groups, those who felt the boot of Government on their necks was oppressive and those who found it comforting. Being firmly in the land and camp of those who found the boot of Government on their necks to be comforting, I can see how you would feel that Government exists to Govern and thus that any impediment to Government's power is to be smashed. However, those of us in American (and Mexico) threw off our colonial overlords and specifically set up systems to prevent this kind of behavior. True, many of us today are returning to the Dark Ages' practice of presenting ourselves to our new overlord, penny in hand and noose (this time figuratively) around neck, asking protection and sustenance in exchange for our freedom, but many of us still value our freedom. If Government (at any level) can ignore law at need, then none of us can be free creatures and all that remains is to determine the length of our chains.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,131
5,658
126
North America long ago split into two groups, those who felt the boot of Government on their necks was oppressive and those who found it comforting. Being firmly in the land and camp of those who found the boot of Government on their necks to be comforting, I can see how you would feel that Government exists to Govern and thus that any impediment to Government's power is to be smashed. However, those of us in American (and Mexico) threw off our colonial overlords and specifically set up systems to prevent this kind of behavior. True, many of us today are returning to the Dark Ages' practice of presenting ourselves to our new overlord, penny in hand and noose (this time figuratively) around neck, asking protection and sustenance in exchange for our freedom, but many of us still value our freedom. If Government (at any level) can ignore law at need, then none of us can be free creatures and all that remains is to determine the length of our chains.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,721
6,201
126
I wonder if this is what the courts won't decide that I started a thread about.

Yup, it was. This is the result of the constant blaming and demonizing the other party that's the conservative's brain defect's fault. They started it and now I have to scream pudding.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
When there are things that need to be done and those who are supposed to do it refuse, someone needs to step up to the plate.

So you do believe that, if necessary in your mind, the US should, at least at times, have a king or emperor of some sort?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,721
6,201
126
North America long ago split into two groups, those who felt the boot of Government on their necks was oppressive and those who found it comforting. Being firmly in the land and camp of those who found the boot of Government on their necks to be comforting, I can see how you would feel that Government exists to Govern and thus that any impediment to Government's power is to be smashed. However, those of us in American (and Mexico) threw off our colonial overlords and specifically set up systems to prevent this kind of behavior. True, many of us today are returning to the Dark Ages' practice of presenting ourselves to our new overlord, penny in hand and noose (this time figuratively) around neck, asking protection and sustenance in exchange for our freedom, but many of us still value our freedom. If Government (at any level) can ignore law at need, then none of us can be free creatures and all that remains is to determine the length of our chains.

The conservative mind likes to think in terms of black and white. Ignore equals chains, strict adherence equals freedom. I see more an issue of a major responding to need vs. compromise accommodation to need, we buy the length of our chains depending on external real conditions via negotiation. This is why a party that sees the other as evil us dangerous for America. To be dangerous requires response and the issue then becomes is one side evil or is the other side mentally defective.
 
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