Obama invokes Teddy Roosevelt in speech attacking GOP policies

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Agfadoc

Member
Dec 4, 2011
104
0
0
The realities of life intervene to make a flat tax unrealistic. After withdrawing the basic necessities of life and state-tax obligations, a person in the lowest bracket has an incredibly lower budget percentage-wise than someone in the top bracket. I just don't see how you can fairly look at that situation and just say "oh asshole earning 40,000 you should have been a harder worker now pay 17% like me because it's fair". There are a lot of intangibles in obtaining success, one of the biggest is hardwork but it's not the only one.

There are a lot of honest hardworkers out there in the lower tax brackets that I see no reason to tax the same percentage that I'm being taxed. Sure it'd be nice to have more budget for another trip out west for skiing, or to go to some Pacific islands for sun, but to give me that much more money will cost so dearly for someone else.

Fairness and equality is a tough nut to crack, and if you associate yourself with any modern politicians it's clear you don't believe in either.

Of course there is, and my point is life ISN'T fair. Yet the leaders are trying to corral the public to think that it is when it will never be. We have a group in our society that chants it every day, but they couldn't possibly believe it.

I have walked almost the entire length of societies ladder. I have a very good understanding of what it is to be hungry and poor, but I also know how it feels to have plenty in your pocket. I know what it's like to make nothing for a long day of work. I don't begrudge those that do, I begrudge those that whine about it and want to take from me.

Subsidized poor happens today, and no matter what we do as a tax policy, I think it will always be there, but the subsidies should be in place to empower people to move forward instead of stay stagnant or regress.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Dude, you really suck as a human. You tout yourself above all, then can't even discuss something without an attack. You really are a disgusting person.

I have nothing to hide. I vote the person not the party. If any other non attacking person cares to know. I voted for Regan, Regan, Perot, Clinton, Bush and Baldwin. I look at the CHARACTER of the person, and not their talking points or their party. I am an American first, unlike Asum, conservative second.

Whats your story? How old are you really? Please share with us your infinite wisdom. I'll bet you vote pure liberal down the line without thinking for yourself.

If you voted for Reagan, and thought the country did well under him, wouldn't you support Reagan-era tax rates?

Imho we need a responsible tax matrix, and lower spending. Once the deficit starts to get lowered, then we can talk about lowering taxes.

I'm an old-school WF Buckley conservative (ie; pre-Neocon), and there are things which REALLY piss me off about both sides right now.

(1)- The sheep "conservatives" lick the balls of the RNC, who has taken the tax system from Reagan-era rates to lower and lower taxes on the wealthy, which causes budgetary problems when funding multiple wars and corporate welfare.

(2)- The sheep "liberals" lick the balls of the DNC, who haven't heretofore shown a spine in terms of putting forth a credible plan for much of anything. With big numbers in the 06/08 elections, they didn't produce much. Chasing health care (which was really just a big handjob to the insurance companies who paid for it) was a big distraction from the real issues facing the country.

I think it's hilarious that hardcore liberals decry Bush but praise Obama, when he is the same thing. I think it's hilarious when deluded conservatives decry Obama but praise Bush (or insert current doucebag here, such as Perry/Gingrich/etc), when they are the same fucking thing.

I'll ask again. Would you support Reagan-era tax rates for the wealthy? *hint : they are higher than what any democrat is suggesting now.
 

Agfadoc

Member
Dec 4, 2011
104
0
0
If you voted for Reagan, and thought the country did well under him, wouldn't you support Reagan-era tax rates?

Imho we need a responsible tax matrix, and lower spending. Once the deficit starts to get lowered, then we can talk about lowering taxes.

I'm an old-school WF Buckley conservative (ie; pre-Neocon), and there are things which REALLY piss me off about both sides right now.

(1)- The sheep "conservatives" lick the balls of the RNC, who has taken the tax system from Reagan-era rates to lower and lower taxes on the wealthy, which causes budgetary problems when funding multiple wars and corporate welfare.

(2)- The sheep "liberals" lick the balls of the DNC, who haven't heretofore shown a spine in terms of putting forth a credible plan for much of anything. With big numbers in the 06/08 elections, they didn't produce much. Chasing health care (which was really just a big handjob to the insurance companies who paid for it) was a big distraction from the real issues facing the country.

I think it's hilarious that hardcore liberals decry Bush but praise Obama, when he is the same thing. I think it's hilarious when deluded conservatives decry Obama but praise Bush (or insert current doucebag here, such as Perry/Gingrich/etc), when they are the same fucking thing.

I'll ask again. Would you support Reagan-era tax rates for the wealthy? *hint : they are higher than what any democrat is suggesting now.

Of course, if these politicians would spend our money wisely. They are not, they are pissing away every dime of our money for their own benefit. Enriching themselves on the backs of my grandchildren. It's not just the corporations who provide me a job btw, but it's our over reaching freedom grabbing government that use us as their revenue slaves to further their own agendas.

We are too deep into the hate machine for both sides to have any form of rational discussion. I won't let an attack slide myself, but when people can be rational with me, I would be more apt to meet them in the middle.

The politicians keep the rhetoric up because they get elected that way.

The true enemy in all of this is the politicians who are raping the people of this country.
 

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
11,938
538
126
agfadoc calling others "angry" when they're providing relatively benign responses and he's personally attacking them and calling them dipshit. classic P&N.
 

Agfadoc

Member
Dec 4, 2011
104
0
0
agfadoc calling others "angry" when they're providing relatively benign responses and he's personally attacking them and calling them dipshit. classic P&N.

Yeah, push mine I push yours.. I an equal opportunity opportunist.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,215
14
81
agfadoc calling others "angry" when they're providing relatively benign responses and he's personally attacking them and calling them dipshit. classic P&N.

Great candidate for the Troll Removal tool.
 

Jeffg010

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2008
3,438
1
0
Agfadoc you rule. He speaks a lot of truth with his posts. All I seen was Ausm asked him to "post the lies" and he did. Then Ausm bolts from any debate about it and came in with some link to fox news and her side monkey Throckmorton saying he hates fox news grate debating skills you guys have.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,215
14
81
Agfadoc you rule. He speaks a lot of truth with his posts. All I seen was Ausm asked him to "post the lies" and he did. Then Ausm bolts from any debate about it and came in with some link to fox news and her side monkey Throckmorton saying he hates fox news grate debating skills you guys have.

You call posting 2 Republican taking points proof? You are easily impressed but anywho i added him to the troll removal tool. The paid RNC shill has no game.
 

Agfadoc

Member
Dec 4, 2011
104
0
0
Ausm didn't want to click the link above, so I'll help him:


Obama’s Kansas speech: some suspect facts

Posted by Glenn Kessler at 09:40 PM ET, 12/06/2011

“I mean, understand, it's not as if we haven't tried this theory. Remember in those years, in 2001 and 2003, Congress passed two of the most expensive tax cuts for the wealthy in history. And what did they get us? The slowest job growth in half a century.”
-- President Obama, Dec. 6, 2011

Channeling his inner Teddy Roosevelt, President Obama on Tuesday gave a feisty speech in Osawatomie, Kan., that sought to rebut Republican arguments that he is waging class warfare. He argued that the issue was one of fairness for the broad middle class, drawing repeated contrasts to the presidency of George W. Bush.
We’ll leave the politics to others, but how accurate were some of his facts?
“I mean, understand, it's not as if we haven't tried this theory. Remember in those years, in 2001 and 2003, Congress passed two of the most expensive tax cuts for the wealthy in history. And what did they get us? The slowest job growth in half a century. Massive deficits that have made it much harder to pay for the investments that built this country and provided the basic security that helped millions of Americans reach and stay in the middle class: things like education and infrastructure, science and technology, Medicare and Social Security.”
Inserting the words “for the wealthy” was interesting phrasing by the president, since he suggests these tax cuts were intended to benefit only the rich.
The bulk of the 2001 tax cuts were marginal rate cuts, which extended to all taxpayers, while the 2003 tax cuts included a reduction in taxes on dividends and capital gains.
But the 2001 tax cuts also included tax changes that benefited the middle class, such as a reduced marriage penalty and expanded tax credits, along with an instant tax rebate. Still, it is correct that most of the benefits of the tax cuts flowed to the wealthy (who, let’s not forget, pay the largest share of income taxes).

Obama has said repeatedly he wants to keep the Bush tax cuts for people making less than $250,000; he wants to reinstate higher tax rates only for the wealthy. (In fact, he would retain about 70 percent of the overall tax cut.) But he should not suggest that the Bush tax cuts were aimed only at the wealthy, since that is not correct.
The Bush tax cuts were certainly large. To compare tax cuts over the decades, it is best to ignore raw numbers but instead focus on the size of the tax cut as a percentage of national income. Under that measure, the John F. Kennedy tax cut of 1964 (-1.90 percent) and the Ronald Reagan tax cut of 1981 (-1.40 percent) were larger than Bush’s 2001 tax cut (-0.80 percent.) But all of Bush’s tax cuts in 2001, 2002 and 2003 combined would equal -2.00 percent.

The Bush tax cuts have been roundly criticized for being inefficient and poorly designed, but it is a stretch for Obama to blame slow job growth on the tax cuts. That are many factors that affect job growth, and it is silly to directly link the 10-year-old tax cut to today’s job growth — just as it is silly to claim that Bill Clinton’s tax increases resulted in a gain of 23 million jobs.
Obama’s claim of the “slowest job growth,” in fact, includes the loss of jobs under his administration. The White House provided as evidence a report on a New York Times blog that was based on gross domestic product data through 2010, or the first two years of Obama’s administration.

The White House also cited a Center on American Progress report on job growth through 2007, which showed monthly job growth of 68,000 jobs during the Bush business cycle. But, since the recession ended, job growth has been even more anemic under Obama — just 40,500 jobs a month, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
An administration official responded that Bush only faced a traditional recession (though one affected by the Sept. 11 attacks), compared to the Great Recession. He also asserted that there is evidence that higher income disparity can affect economic growth.
Obama certainly inherited an economic mess, and we have argued he does not deserve blame for the massive loss of jobs early in his administration. But it seems odd to keep blaming poor job growth on the Bush tax cuts, especially because Obama himself pushed through a nearly $1 trillion stimulus and took other actions that have affected the economy, for better or worse.
Finally, Obama blames the Bush tax cuts for “massive deficits.” It is certainly true that the Bush tax cuts helped blow a hole in the budget. But they did not do it all by themselves. We looked at length at this issue earlier this year, assisted by new Congressional Budget Office data.

The data showed that the biggest contributor to the disappearance of projected surpluses was increased spending, which accounted for 36.5 percent of the decline in the nation’s fiscal position, followed by incorrect CBO estimates, which accounted for 28 percent. The Bush tax cuts (along with some Obama tax cuts) were responsible for just 24 percent.
Thus it is simply wrong to blame only the Bush tax cuts for the deficits now faced by the country, especially three years into another presidential term.
“Some billionaires have a tax rate as low as 1 percent — 1 percent. That is the height of unfairness.”
This is a striking statistic. But the only evidence that the White House could offer for it was a clip of a conversation on Bloomberg TV, in which correspondent Gigi Stone made this assertion during a discussion about the tax strategies that the very wealthy use to avoid paying taxes. The TV clip was promoted by the left-leaning Web site Think Progress.
Stone quoted from a Bloomberg News article last month that reported on such tax strategies, which mostly involve complicated ways to defer paying capital gains taxes. But the article never made the 1-percent claim. It also noted that the IRS had gotten more hostile to such transactions in recent years.

An administration official conceded the White House had no actual data to back up the president’s assertion, but argued that other reports showed that some of the wealthy pay little in taxes.
Frankly, when it comes to taxes, let’s not forget the legendary statement of Judge Learned Hand — as long as it is not illegal, people can try to lower their taxes as much as possible:
"Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes.
Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands."​
The most recent data that we can find on the top 400 taxpayers — all billionaires — show that in 2008, 30 billionaires paid an average tax rate of between zero and 10 percent. Certainly “some” might have paid as little as 1 percent on income. But we are talking about a very tiny number. By contrast, 59 billionaires paid an average tax rate of 30 to 35 percent. And 238 faced a marginal tax rate of 35 percent and above; only 17 had a marginal rate of zero to 26 percent. (The marginal tax rate is what people pay on each additional dollar they earn.)
The average tax paid by the top 400 taxpayers was nearly $50 million. It is impossible to know the financial circumstances of the handful of billionaires who may have lowered their taxes to 1 percent, but there may be reasonable explanations. For instance, the person may be retired and generating no new income, while keeping investments in tax-deferred entities.

The president does not need to lard his case with such suspect data. There are few independent tax analysts who have much good to say about the Bush tax cuts. But it is difficult for Obama to justify blaming those tax cuts for being mostly responsible for today’s slow job growth, especially when he wants to retain a good chunk of those tax cuts.
To bolster his case about unfairness, the president is also relying on a suspect statistic about billionaires paying as little as 1 percent in taxes. Even if true, it is a clearly a rare event. Moreover, it is certainly surprising that the White House would rely on such a dubious, unverified source for a major presidential address.
 
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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
3
0
True or false: The Bush tax cuts that benefited the wealthy were among the most expensive ever

True or false: Some billionaires pay 1% tax


Both are true statements, by the admission of that same article you posted...
 

Agfadoc

Member
Dec 4, 2011
104
0
0
True or false: The Bush tax cuts that benefited the wealthy were among the most expensive ever

True or false: Some billionaires pay 1% tax


Both are true statements, by the admission of that same article you posted...

SO what? His assertion that it ONLY benefited the wealthy is FALSE

His implication that the wealthy don't pay their "FAIR SHARE" Is FALSE.

Jealousy of the rich won't get you more wealthy... Pulling the top down and bottom up only makes us lemmings.. all equally poor.

Name one society that everyone is truly equal.

Your best example would be North and South Korea.. If you never saw South Korea before the 80's you wouldn't see the change that Capitalism brought to that country.

Your president want to bring Venezuela and North Korea to America... Yeah! All Equally impoverished but there is still a 1%.

There will always be a 1%, no matter where you go or how you formulate it there will always be someone better off than others. AND the difference between Capitalism and Socialism is that I can climb up out of poverty in Capitalism if I try. Socialism you can't.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
SO what? His assertion that it ONLY benefited the wealthy is FALSE

His implication that the wealthy don't pay their "FAIR SHARE" Is FALSE.

Jealousy of the rich won't get you more wealthy... Pulling the top down and bottom up only makes us lemmings.. all equally poor.

Name one society that everyone is truly equal.

Your best example would be North and South Korea.. If you never saw South Korea before the 80's you wouldn't see the change that Capitalism brought to that country.

Your president want to bring Venezuela and North Korea to America... Yeah! All Equally impoverished but there is still a 1%.

There will always be a 1%, no matter where you go or how you formulate it there will always be someone better off than others. AND the difference between Capitalism and Socialism is that I can climb up out of poverty in Capitalism if I try. Socialism you can't.

Not only is North Korea not even remotely equal, the government there does not make any serious attempt at equality for its citizens. It is a gangster kleptocracy.

As for 'socialism', every country on earth is socialist to a certain extent. Strangely enough, it is easier for someone to climb out of poverty in 'socialist' Europe today than it is in America, the land of opportunity.
 

Agfadoc

Member
Dec 4, 2011
104
0
0
They're even calling him a "national socialist".

For Fox viewers, that's a dog whistle code for "Nazi".

This President IS a socialist. In the shortest of terms... He wants centralized ownership and control by the government.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

He doesn't believe you are entitled to keep what you earn or own your own property.

He doesn't want you to own anything more than the next guy or anything at all that he doesn't specifically designate as what you are entitled to.

Man you kids really need to read the history that wasn't doctored up by the ideologues in the universities. Mao Se Tung.. Che.. Yeah man.. Che Rocked! Yeah.. Right. Maoists.. teaching history.. Great...

You don't even know what you are asking for... That is funny, what's worse is you can vote for the thing that will remove your right to vote.. Hahahahahaha.. You can't even see the path that others have taken... Too funny.
 

Agfadoc

Member
Dec 4, 2011
104
0
0
Not only is North Korea not even remotely equal, the government there does not make any serious attempt at equality for its citizens. It is a gangster kleptocracy.

As for 'socialism', every country on earth is socialist to a certain extent. Strangely enough, it is easier for someone to climb out of poverty in 'socialist' Europe today than it is in America, the land of opportunity.

That is a lie, I was in Europe last month. Don't even try to tell me what the business atmosphere is in Europe.. It's on fire! Overloaded bureaucracies and overburdened social programs.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
This President IS a socialist. In the shortest of terms... He wants centralized ownership and control by the government.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

He doesn't believe you are entitled to keep what you earn or own your own property.

He doesn't want you to own anything more than the next guy or anything at all that he doesn't specifically designate as what you are entitled to.

Man you kids really need to read the history that wasn't doctored up by the ideologues in the universities. Mao Se Tung.. Che.. Yeah man.. Che Rocked! Yeah.. Right. Maoists.. teaching history.. Great...

You don't even know what you are asking for... That is funny, what's worse is you can vote for the thing that will remove your right to vote.. Hahahahahaha.. You can't even see the path that others have taken... Too funny.

Except of course that's all entirely made up bullshit. If you actually believe what you just wrote, you're utterly delusional.

Where do people get these ideas? Do you listen to a lot of talk radio or watch a lot of Fox News or something?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
That is a lie, I was in Europe last month. Don't even try to tell me what the business atmosphere is in Europe.. It's on fire! Overloaded bureaucracies and overburdened social programs.

Nope, you just don't know what you're talking about. Economic mobility is higher in Europe on average than it is in the US.

For just one (of many) studies on this, try this one: http://cep.lse.ac.uk/about/news/IntergenerationalMobility.pdf

There are plenty more where that came from.
 

Agfadoc

Member
Dec 4, 2011
104
0
0
You guys crack me up. Too bad the generations ahead of you couldn't stop you from putting the boot of society on their necks.. Read the two books again if you haven't already..

1984 and Animal farm... Some people are just MORE equal than others... Hahahahahaha..
 
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