Obama Makes Another Threat

[JD50]

Originally posted by: alchemize
TheGreenBean, one of the rare P&N posters that can bring down almost universal* derision from "both sides".

With friends like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, who needs enemies?




*exception being cowardly know-it-alls who shall remane nameless

I think I know who you're talking about. I'm not going to name names, so let's just call him Lemon L.


No wait, that's too obvious, let's call him L. Law.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: alchemize
TheGreenBean, one of the rare P&N posters that can bring down almost universal* derision from "both sides".

With friends like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, who needs enemies?




*exception being cowardly know-it-alls who shall remane nameless

I think I know who you're talking about. I'm not going to name names, so let's just call him Lemon L.


No wait, that's too obvious, let's call him L. Law.

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JD50 which is not your real name, why don't you just call me Lemon Law?

JS50, your cute crapola has elevated the discussion zero.

Tell me again, are we winning yet? And better yet, do you really think invading Pakistan will win either. After all, widening the war looked so good on paper in Vietnam, it just did not work out so well in the real world.

Will I really advance this discussion by calling you JDZerobrain?

I for one think not.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Fern
IMO, you can either exert control over your country and border, or eventually somebody else will do it for you.

What he said.

Anyone who believes that there were "15 civilians killed" is a fucking idiot.

TGB, tell all of your Taliban and AQ friends that we're coming for them too...

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palehorse, that really the way to win, demonise and intimidate The Green Bean who is just one a a very few posters who gives us a clue on what the larger Pakistani attitudes are.

But in the larger grand scheme of things, few if any in Pakistan know who The Green Bean is, and even if you covert TGB to your position, it will do you no damn good.

Well lets see, you and Nato are outnumbered 430 to one in Afghanistan, go ahead, add the 165 million in Pakistan to the mix, and now you can be outnumbered only 2722 to one. Brilliant simply Brilliant strategy. A sure winner for Al Quida.

The 165m Pakistanis are not going to the border to engage NATO.

If they actually did, then it would push the Taliban & AQ into Afghanistan; which has been requested all along.

At this point, anything coming from the border is anticipated to be Taliban/AQ and an intercept attempted.

And then you also need to take into account the quality of the Pakistani troops when going up against anyone but their own people. The so-called pushes against the Taliban in the tribal areas have been failures.

And Pakistan has admitted that they were supporting AQ (as has been accused by the West) for years.

So the Pakistani threat from LL or TGB is nothing to lose sleep over

 

[heyheybooboo]

It's not like we haven't had this discussion - like last Fall (rolling eyes)

The sad thing is we gave up sharing any information or intelligence with Pakistan in South Waziristan - and I'm assuming they have pretty much done the same thing for us. I imagine a few tidbits go back and forth but not at the level it needs to be ...

We need Pakistan as an ally but we can't trust them at all. Sorry, Beanie. Dat's just da fact, Jack.

 

[bamacre]

You guys need to stop being little cowards and stand up to the Taliban so others don't have too do it for you.

I'm not going to say this only to the person who posted it, because it is a mentality that basically we all share.

But let's try to look at this with another perspective. How can we ask them to fight with guns and bombs the Taliban in their own country, when we refuse to get rid of those in our own government who cause havoc overseas. We don't even need guns and bombs, just a simple vote.

Of course, some would like to think our overseas adventures are carried out by just one of our two parties, and I'm sorry, that just isn't so. It isn't just our invasion of Iraq which has pissed off many in the Middle East. The president in office before the current dumbass Bush came along, didn't exactly do a good job with Iraq either.

And here we are with Obama and McCain both threatening further economic sanctions on Iran. And are they a threat to us? No, and its absurd.

We have every right to defend ourselves. But when we stretch our interest and troops overseas for other reasons, and the results of this do harm to other people in other countries, we have to either accept the possible consequences of those actions, or just stop it all together. We can't hit, and then bitch when someone hits back.

I don't want to see the USA in the same stupid predicament that Israel and the Palestinians have on their hands. And you know what I am talking about, where one says "we kill you because you occupy our lands," and the other says, "we occupy your lands because you kill us." It is a never-ending circle of death and destruction. Does anyone want us to be in the same scenario? I doubt it. But as long as we continue supporting interventionists instead of getting rid of them, we're definitely on our way there.

 

[Dari]

I'm tired of this shit. All NATO and American forces should move into the Northwest Frontier provinces now. This fucking game Pakistan and the Taliban are playing has gone on long enough.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Dari
I'm tired of this shit. All NATO and American forces should move into the Northwest Frontier provinces now. This fucking game Pakistan and the Taliban are playing has gone on long enough.

I agree. If we want to end this, we need to fight it to win - not just keep knocking them back when they come across.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Dari
I'm tired of this shit. All NATO and American forces should move into the Northwest Frontier provinces now. This fucking game Pakistan and the Taliban are playing has gone on long enough.

I agree. If we want to end this, we need to fight it to win - not just keep knocking them back when they come across.

Destroy the violent people! :thumbsup:

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Dari
I'm tired of this shit. All NATO and American forces should move into the Northwest Frontier provinces now. This fucking game Pakistan and the Taliban are playing has gone on long enough.

I agree. If we want to end this, we need to fight it to win - not just keep knocking them back when they come across.

Destroy the violent people! :thumbsup:

I guess you could say that.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Dari
I'm tired of this shit. All NATO and American forces should move into the Northwest Frontier provinces now. This fucking game Pakistan and the Taliban are playing has gone on long enough.

I agree. If we want to end this, we need to fight it to win - not just keep knocking them back when they come across.

Destroy the violent people! :thumbsup:

I guess you could say that.

I can't take credit for it.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Dari
I'm tired of this shit. All NATO and American forces should move into the Northwest Frontier provinces now. This fucking game Pakistan and the Taliban are playing has gone on long enough.

I agree. If we want to end this, we need to fight it to win - not just keep knocking them back when they come across.

Destroy the violent people! :thumbsup:

I guess you could say that.

I can't take credit for it.

doesn't load from home. i don't know why that site doesn't work here but it does when I'm at work. I'll have to check it out tommorow.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: alchemize
TheGreenBean, one of the rare P&N posters that can bring down almost universal* derision from "both sides".

With friends like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, who needs enemies?




*exception being cowardly know-it-alls who shall remane nameless

I think I know who you're talking about. I'm not going to name names, so let's just call him Lemon L.


No wait, that's too obvious, let's call him L. Law.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JD50 which is not your real name, why don't you just call me Lemon Law?

JS50, your cute crapola has elevated the discussion zero.

Tell me again, are we winning yet? And better yet, do you really think invading Pakistan will win either. After all, widening the war looked so good on paper in Vietnam, it just did not work out so well in the real world.

Will I really advance this discussion by calling you JDZerobrain?

I for one think not.

=============================
Have you noticed that virtually no one attempts to advance the discussion with you
--------------------===================-----------------------------------------------____
because you don't listen to a thing that anyone says? You have absolutely no real world
=========----------========--------=============
experience on this topic, yet you try to make yourself out to be an expert, it's laughable.

===========-----=--$$$$$$$$$$$$$$& &&&&&************-----------

Edit - Have you also noticed that pretty much no one agrees with you on this topic? Doesn't it seem odd that people that violently disagree on just about everything else,
-------------------------------------++++++++++++++++_-----------------------------------
come together on this topic? Also, don't you find it a little hypocritical for you to have a problem with someone changing your name around, Non-Lemon Law.

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[Lemon law]

And as all 72,000 Nato troops move into the Northeast frontier of Pakistan, the Taliban and Al Quida will be free to move right back into Afghanistan as they have been doing for the past four years anyway. Or they can move into any of the Stans to the North or simply hide in plain sight. While Nato stretches itself thinner and thinner and thinner.

In any game of wacko mole, a skeleton Nato force loses.

 

[heyheybooboo]

I would tend to acknowledge the validity of LL 's point before I would even care to acknowledge the complete and utter bullshit that is ...

""So what are you waiting for TGB? Retaliate already.""

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
And as all 72,000 Nato troops move into the Northwest frontier of Pakistan, the Taliban and Al Quida will be free to move right back into Afghanistan as they have been doing for the past four years anyway. Or they can move into any of the Stans to the North or simply hide in plain sight. While Nato stretches itself thinner and thinner and thinner.

In any game of wacko mole, a skeleton Nato force loses.

fixed... perhaps you should start with a basic Geography course.

That said, in 2001-2002, we cleared the entire country of Afghanistan with less than 300 U.S. SOF personnel. Our biggest mistake back then was in stopping at the imaginary, and otherwise unrecognized, Pakistani border.

That mistake must be corrected.

You'd be amazed just how effective our hounds can be when the pussies in Washington decide to release them...

 

[ranmaniac]

Even the puppet Karzai isn't happy with NATO.

"Karzai promises punishment for Afghan civil casualties"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200.../afghan_civilians_dc_2

 

[Lemon law]

As JD50 points out, very few in my own country agree with me. I also note that few agreed with my basic position during Vietnam articulated by those older than I was then. Twenty twenty hindsight it may still be easy for us to the characterize the Vietnam anti war movement as American defeatists and traitors, but we then have missed the fact that many of those so called defeatists still understood that fighting a nationalistic Vietnamese unity movement was a fools games, and if we as a country had paid more attention to smarter strategies, we might have more to show from Vietnam than a black granite wall with 58,000 names carved onto that wall.

And some 232 years ago, our founding fathers also started their own insurrection as they declared independence from England. They too did not have much popular support but they has two things going for them. One thing was the arrogance of England as the more pragmatic has been working for compromises for the past twenty years, an appeal England arrogantly ignored . And the second thing is the fact that our founding fathers, while being simply colonial rustics, were also not only on the cutting edge of modern political thought, they in fact led the world into a new model of human rights and personal liberty. They were lawyers, philosophers, pragmatists, scientists, able to work together, and build institutions that worked.

And now our nation fights an Afghan insurgency whose leaders have ideals that were defective a thousand years ago. Totally uneducated rabble with nothing of a future to really offer their people and no real understanding of any alternatives. But make no mistake, the Taliban is as convinced of the rightness of their cause as our founding fathers were. And they too have two winning trump cards to play. And one is simply our own arrogance and unwillingness to understand their point of view. And the second thing is more subtle and more complex, because they in fact have a philosophy that the root of all evil is fact Western ideas and we proceed to prove them correct. While at the same time the Taliban, rotten as they are, are a preferred popular with the Afghan people alternative to the very anarchy and corruption that Ronald Reagan had a role in bringing to Afghanistan.

Get a clue boys and girls, we are not going to be able to kill our way out the situation, its really a battle of ideas, and if we can't show a better way, we will lose. Simple as that, we are losing because our tactics aid the Taliban more than they aid us.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: ranmaniac
Even the puppet Karzai isn't happy with NATO.

"Karzai promises punishment for Afghan civil casualties"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200.../afghan_civilians_dc_2

Public declarations of protest and repercussions are almost mandatory for any leader who wishes to maintain control of his people. Projecting a strong central government is crucial to Karzai's, and ultimately Afghanistan's, success.

That said, don't expect his public statements to mirror reality or the truth in any given situation. Karzai has to say certain things, publicly, regardless of what the facts of any situation may be.

In other words, like his counterparts in Iraq, he will outright lie if/when he needs to in order to continuously project the image of a strong central government. He will even put on a decent show of force every now and then to make it all believable -- such as firing a few of his Generals, or kicking out a random NATO representative, or two.

Ahmed Sixpack is even easier to fool, and sway, than Joe Sixpack...

What scares me though is just how dumb some of my fellow Americans are -- ie. those in these forums who buy into the show without thinking twice. I can promise you, based on first-hand knowledge and experience, that 90% of the "civilians" supposedly killed by NATO in Afghanistan, or more, are entirely fabricated... The Taliban has even been known to blow up buildings full of women and kids, long after our attacks, or in another part of the area altogether, just to be able to take pictures of dead women and children for PR... seriously!

but some of you morons will still believe the Taliban instead. That's nuts!

bah... I'm surrounded by idiots.

ps: LemonLaw, you're still completely uneducated on this subject and wrong; and, I don't think the interwebz are going to be enough to save you...

 

[manowar821]

We already had zero right to say anything about Russia, for two reasons actually... One, ever since Vietnam, or even Korea. And TWO, they were lying about Russia starting it, and Georgia was full of shit.

Anyway, this attack is fucking despicable, but don't expect anyone to apologize, much less stop doing it in the future... We're run by pricks, and it wont change any time soon.

 

[ranmaniac]

Which candidate would be better for the operation in Afghanistan? It seems like McCain would continue focusing on Iraq, whereas Obama has specifically talked about putting more troops and resources into Afghanistan.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: ranmaniac
Even the puppet Karzai isn't happy with NATO.

"Karzai promises punishment for Afghan civil casualties"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200.../afghan_civilians_dc_2

Public declarations of protest and repercussions are almost mandatory for any leader who wishes to maintain control of his people. Projecting a strong central government is crucial to Karzai's, and ultimately Afghanistan's, success.

That said, don't expect his public statements to mirror reality or the truth in any given situation. Karzai has to say certain things, publicly, regardless of what the facts of any situation may be.

In other words, like his counterparts in Iraq, he will outright lie if/when he needs to in order to continuously project the image of a strong central government. He will even put on a decent show of force every now and then to make it all believable -- such as firing a few of his Generals, or kicking out a random NATO representative, or two.

Ahmed Sixpack is even easier to fool, and sway, than Joe Sixpack...

What scares me though is just how dumb some of my fellow Americans are -- ie. those in these forums who buy into the show without thinking twice. I can promise you, based on first-hand knowledge and experience, that 90% of the "civilians" killed by NATO in Afghanistan, or more, are entirely fabricated... but some of you morons will still believe the Taliban PR instead. That's nuts!

bah...

ps: you're still completely uneducated on this subject and wrong LL; and I don't think Wikipedia is going to be enough to save you...

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We have been arguing the same basic point for two full years now palehorse. The only thing that changes is the fact that time goes on and we are in worse shape than we were two years ago.

In terms of the Taliban bullshit, does it really matter, if the Afghanan people believe you are killing them wholesale, does it really matter if you are not always as bad as they paint you? And instead of killing only 70 Afghans innocents, the real figure is only 35. As if that is going to redeem Nato in Afghan eyes. Get a clue, one innocent is too many.

The judge and jury remains the Afghan and Pakistani people. And if you paid less attention to what you think and more attention to what others think, you might get a clue.

 

[Woofmeister]

I'm going to keep reposting this every time The Green Bean posts to complain about the U.S. or NATO attacking Taliban and al-Qaeda operating within Pakistan's tribal areas.

By allowing the Taliban and al-Qaeda to attack Afghanistan and U.N. Mandate forces from its purportedly sovereign territory, Pakistan is in violation of Security Council Resolution 1373, which provides in part:

all States shall:

?(a) Refrain from providing any form of support, active or passive, to entities or persons involved in terrorist acts, including by suppressing recruitment of members of terrorist groups and eliminating the supply of weapons to terrorists;

?(b) Take the necessary steps to prevent the commission of terrorist acts, including by provision of early warning to other States by exchange of information;

?(c) Deny safe haven to those who finance, plan, support, or commit terrorist acts, or provide safe havens;

?(d) Prevent those who finance, plan, facilitate or commit terrorist acts from using their respective territories for those purposes against other States or their citizens;

?(e) Ensure that any person who participates in the financing, planning, preparation or perpetration of terrorist acts or in supporting terrorist acts is brought to justice and ensure that, in addition to any other measures against them, such terrorist acts are established as serious criminal offences in domestic laws and regulations and that the punishment duly reflects the seriousness of such terrorist acts;

?(f) Afford one another the greatest measure of assistance in connection with criminal investigations or criminal proceedings relating to the financing or support of terrorist acts, including assistance in obtaining evidence in their possession necessary for the proceedings;

?(g) Prevent the movement of terrorists or terrorist groups by effective border controls and controls on issuance of identity papers and travel documents, and through measures for preventing counterfeiting, forgery or fraudulent use of identity papers and travel documents;

1373 is pursuant to Chapter VII of the U.N. Charter, i.e., the Chapter that provides authority for military force.

The notion that a country 1 (or forces operating under UN Mandate in country 1) may not invade the territory of country 2 when country 2's territory is being used for attacks on country 1 by a third-party has no basis whatsoever in international law.

 

[Lemon law]

Which applies equally to the US, Pakistan Saudi Arabia, Israel, Columbia,China Russia, and a host of other countries. Let is know, Woofmeister, when the UN proper condemns Pakistan. If anything, its the US that is now skating on thin UN ice.

 

[OCGuy]

lol @ OP. Get used to it, until they are gone. Or until you do something about it yourself.

 

[TechAZ]

Another classic TGB thread. If your impotent government had any balls or integrity they would be doing the job so we wouldn't have to. What country in the civilized world just lets the most hated, violent, dangerous terrorist group operate within it's borders and stick their thumbs up their ass? You have the balls to bitch about the USA when your country would be mistaken for Somalia if you didn't have nukes. No wonder people flock here from Pakistan to open gas stations.