Obama Makes Another Threat

[The Green Bean]

This is totally unacceptable. Now they are conducting ground raids in our country. I believe we have a right to defend our sovereignty. These raids are uncalled for and should be met with full force. Why Pakistan's government has not taken a stricter policy against imperialism is a mystery. It won't be much longer before the people take to the streets forcing the government to renounce US's 'divine right' to control the world. We don't have much to lose. Our support for America has already lead us to the path of destruction from within; nothing that the US could do to us could be worse than us submitting to them and living like their slaves. Death to the American occupation and invasion.

Now you Americans have zero right to say anything to Russia. Your country can do anything it pleases in other sovereign states recognized by the UN and Russia can't? In fact Afghanistan and Pakistan are on the other side of the world are no real threat.

ISLAMABAD: A senior US military official has acknowledged that American forces conducted a raid inside Pakistan, in the first known foreign ground assault in the country against a suspected Taliban haven.

The Pakistan government has condemned an incursion that killed at least 20 people.

The American official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told The Associated Press that the raid occurred Wednesday on Pakistani soil about one 1 milefrom the Afghan border. The official didn?t provide any other details.

The boldness of the thrust fed speculation about the intended target. But it was unclear whether any extremist leader was killed or captured in the operation, which occurred in one of the militant strongholds dotting a frontier region considered a likely hiding place for Osama bin Laden and al Qaida?s number two leader, Ayman al-Zawahri.

Pakistani officials have confirmed they were lodging strong protests with the US government about Wednesday?s raid.

The Foreign Ministry called the strike ?a gross violation of Pakistan?s territory,? saying it could ?undermine the very basis of cooperation and may fuel the fire of hatred and violence that we are trying to extinguish.?

US military and civilian officials declined to respond to Pakistan?s complaints. But one official, a South Asia expert who agreed to discuss the situation only if not quoted by name, suggested the target of any raid like that reported Wednesday would have to be extremely important to risk an almost assured ?big backlash? from Pakistan.

?You have to consider that something like this will be a more-or-less once-off opportunity for which we will have to pay a price in terms of Pakistani cooperation,? the official said.

American commanders have been complaining publicly that Pakistan puts too little pressure on militant groups that are blamed for mounting violence in Afghanistan, stirring speculation that US forces might lash out across the frontier.

Circumstances surrounding Wednesday?s raid weren?t clear, but US rules of engagement allow American troops to chase militants across the border into the tribal region when they are attacked.

They may only go about six miles on the ground, under normal circumstances. US rules allow aircraft to go 10 miles into Pakistan air space.

Pakistan?s army spokesman, Major Gen. Athar Abbas, said the attack was the first incursion onto Pakistani soil by troops from the foreign forces that ousted Afghanistan?s hard-line Taliban regime.

He said the attack would undermine Pakistan?s efforts to isolate militants and could threaten NATO?s major supply lines, which snake from Karachi through the tribal region into Afghanistan.

?We cannot afford a huge uprising at the level of tribe,? Abbas said. ?That would be completely counterproductive and doesn?t help the cause of fighting terrorism in the area.?

The Pakistani anger threatens to upset efforts by American commanders to draw Pakistan?s military into the US strategy of dealing harshly with the militants.

Washington has accused rogue elements in Pakistan?s main intelligence service of leaking sensitive information to militants.

American officials say destroying militant sanctuaries in Pakistani tribal regions is key to defeating Taliban-led militants in Afghanistan whose insurgency has strengthened every year since the fundamentalist militia was ousted for harbouring bin Laden.

Citing witness and intelligence reports, Abbas said troops flew in on at least one big CH-47 Chinook transport helicopter, blasted their way into several houses and gunned down men they found there.

He said there was no evidence that any of those killed were insurgents or that the raiders abducted any militant leader, but he acknowledged Pakistan?s military had no firsthand account.

edit: 15/9/08

ISLAMABAD: Firing by Pakistani troops forced US military helicopters to turn back to Afghanistan after they crossed into Pakistani territory early on Monday, Pakistani security officials said.

The incident took place near Angoor Adda, a village in the tribal region of South Waziristan where US commandos in helicopters raided a suspected Al Qaeda and Taliban camp earlier this month.

?The US choppers came into Pakistan by just 100 to 150 metres at Angoor Adda. Even then our troops did not spare them, opened fire on them and they turned away,? said one security official.

The US and Pakistani military both denied that account, but Angoor Adda villagers and officials supported it.

Another security official said on Monday that US armoured vehicles were also seen moving on the Afghan side of the border, while US warplanes were seen overhead.

He said Pakistani soldiers sounded a bugle call and fired in the air, forcing the helicopters to return to Afghan territory.

CONFLICTING VERSIONS

The Pakistan army's chief military spokesman, Major General Athar Abbas, denied there had been any such incident. ?These reports are not correct,? he said.

?We have checked, there is an FC (Frontier Corps) post in the area. No helicopter came inside our side of the border, nor did our troops fire at any,? Abbas said.

Military spokesman Major Murad Khan confirmed that there had been shooting. But he said the American helicopters had not crossed into Pakistani airspace and Pakistani troops were not responsible for the firing.

?The US choppers were there at the border, but they did not violate our airspace,? Khan said. ?We confirm that there was a firing incident at the time when the helicopters were there, but our forces were not involved.?

A spokesman for the US military at Bagram Airbase, north of Kabul, said its forces had not reported any such incident. ?The unit in the area belongs to the (US-led) coalition. They are not reporting any such incident,? the US military spokesman said.

But the official denials were contradicted by Pakistani civilian officials and villagers in Angoor Adda.

One official told Reuters that ?the troops stationed at BP-27 post fired at the choppers and they turned away.?

A resident described the tension in the village through the night. ?We saw helicopters flying all over the area. We stayed awake the whole night after the incident,? he said.

Also on the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7396366.stm

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) -- Pakistan's military has ordered its forces to open fire if U.S. troops launch another air or ground raid across the Afghan border, an army spokesman said Tuesday.

The orders, which come in response to a highly unusual September. 3 ground attack by U.S. commandos, are certain to heighten tension between Washington and a key ally against terrorism.

Pakistan's civilian leaders have protested the raid but say the dispute should be resolved through diplomatic channels.

However, army spokesman Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas told The Associated Press that after U.S. helicopters ferried troops into a militant stronghold in the South Waziristan tribal region, the military told field commanders to prevent any similar raids.

"The orders are clear," Abbas said in an interview. "In case it happens again in this form, that there is a very significant detection, which is very definite, no ambiguity, across the border, on ground or in the air: open fire."

U.S. military commanders accuse Islamabad of doing too little to prevent the Taliban and other militant groups from recruiting, training and resupplying in Pakistan's wild tribal belt.

Pakistan acknowledges the presence of al-Qaida fugitives and its difficulties in preventing militants from seeping through the mountainous border into Afghanistan.

However, it insists it is doing what it can and paying a heavy price, pointing to its deployment of more then 100,000 troops in its increasingly restive northwest and a wave of suicide bombings across the country.

PESHAWAR: A suspected US missile attack by drone aircraft on Wednesday hit a village in the Pakistani tribal region of South Waziristan where a militant camp was located, Pakistani intelligence officials said.

The missiles targeted Baghar, a village in the mountains 55km west of Wana, the main town in the region, they said.

Baghar is close to Angor Adda, the border village that was raided by US commandos on Sept. 3, and where another helicopter-borne raid was aborted on Monday after Pakistani troops and villagers opened fire.

A Pakistani military spokesman said there had been explosions in the area, but could not confirm the cause.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
This is totally unacceptable. Now they are conducting ground raids in our country. I believe we have a right to defend our sovereignty.

Facilitate terrorists in their acts of war, and acts of war shall be returned upon you.

*edited for tone

 

[Dari]

Give us bin Laden and we will stop the raids.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
This is totally unacceptable. Now they are conducting ground raids in our country. I believe we have a right to defend our sovereignty. These raids are uncalled for and should be met with full force. Why Pakistan's government has not taken a stricter policy against imperialism is a mystery. It won't be much longer before the people take to the streets forcing the government to renounce US's 'divine right' to control the world. We don't have much to lose. Our support for America has already lead us to the path of destruction from within; nothing that the US could do to us could be worse than us submitting to them and living like their slaves. Death to the American occupation and invasion.

Now you Americans have zero right to say anything to Russia. Your country can do anything it pleases in other sovereign states recognized by the UN and Russia can't? In fact Afghanistan and Pakistan are on the other side of the world are no real threat.

Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.


We've already put out notice. Feel free to respond in force and enjoy the response.

 

[JeepinEd]

Didn't Pakistan recently conduct raids into Iraq?

If Pakistan would stop harboring terrorists, then it will be left alone.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Yet your country admits to cooperating with the Taliban and AQ.

Then it complains when they cause you problems.

Your country chose to turn a blind eye and were repeatedly asked to do something about it.


What this may signal is that since Pakistan does not want to control their territory; then there is no problem with NATO going after the troublemakers that live within the territory.

Sovereignty has gone out the window - you tried to pick and choose; now there is not choice. You chose to give the Taliban and AQ sanctuary - now you have to actually protect them from a pissed off professional group of soldiers.

Can and will you do so?


You have a few choices.

Cooperate w/ NATO and accept the results
Resist NATO with force and accept the results
Pretend it did not happen and keep on whoring yourself to both sides. that is what has gotten you into this mess.

 

[PokerGuy]

If only Pakistan spent as much energy on fighting the terrorists as they do denouncing the US, this wouldn't be an issue. Instead of being mad, they should join in the effort and root out the evil in their midst.

 

[StageLeft]

I believe we have a right to defend our sovereignty.

If it's your territory, why are there enemies of Afghanistan, going into Afghanistan and attacking coalition forces in it, working from your territory? That makes you complicit. Except it doesn't because we both know it's not really your territory except on a map; Pakistan has no control over this region, so umbrage over a US incursion to take out enemies that Pakistan cannot deal with means that Pakistan is tacitly approving these people. Either that, or it must condone these incursions. So, which is it? It's of paramount siliness to take offense at the US going into Pakistan territory nd conducting limited operations against forces Pakistan cannot deal with but claims to be opposed to.

 

[K1052]

If you really want to defend your sovereignty how about you start with the terrorist organizations operating within your borders.

 

[The Green Bean]

Let's get things into perspective. Who is more evil. The taliban or you? You have killed far more innocents in this so called war than the taliban did. Not utilizing the intelligence you have and conducting raids that kill civilians is the same as intentionally targeting them. The world needs to get rid of American imperialism before the taliban. America and NATO are nothing but oppressors. Why shouldn't we be mad? How mad were you when the taliban were killing off your civilians?

 

[Isaiah]

Originally posted by: JeepinEd
Didn't Pakistan recently conduct raids into Iraq?

No, you are thinking of Turkey, Pakistan and Iraq don't share a border.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: K1052
If you really want to defend your sovereignty how about you start with the terrorist organizations operating within your borders.

How about you start with the war criminals operating within your borders?

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
This is totally unacceptable. Now they are conducting ground raids in our country. I believe we have a right to defend our sovereignty. These raids are uncalled for and should be met with full force. Why Pakistan's government has not taken a stricter policy against imperialism is a mystery. It won't be much longer before the people take to the streets forcing the government to renounce US's 'divine right' to control the world. We don't have much to lose. Our support for America has already lead us to the path of destruction from within; nothing that the US could do to us could be worse than us submitting to them and living like their slaves. Death to the American occupation and invasion.

Now you Americans have zero right to say anything to Russia. Your country can do anything it pleases in other sovereign states recognized by the UN and Russia can't? In fact Afghanistan and Pakistan are on the other side of the world are no real threat.
-snip-

Imperialism, slaves, occupation?

Over-the-top much?

I think it's a lot simpler - terrorists are using Pakistani areas as base camps and launching attackes on US and Afgan troops INSIDE Afganistan.

That's why your Russian analogy is incorrect. AFAIK, no terrorists in Georgia or SO were conducting raids inside Russia proper and retreating back into Georgia/S.O.

Personally, I don't see how Pakistani people can expect otherwise, I really doubt any country would allow raiders/attackers to come into their country and then retreat back into another and do nothing.

I seem to recall Turkey not-to-long-ago launching attacks in Iraq for this reason.

IMO, you can either exert control over your country and border, or eventually somebody else will do it for you.

Fern

 

[JeepinEd]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Let's get things into perspective. Who is more evil. The taliban or you? You have killed far more innocents in this so called war than the taliban did. Not utilizing the intelligence you have and conducting raids that kill civilians is the same as intentionally targeting them. The world needs to get rid of American imperialism before the taliban. America and NATO are nothing but oppressors. Why shouldn't we be mad? How mad were you when the taliban were killing off your civilians?

One group purposely kills civilians and uses them as human shields.
The other does it's best to avoid killing civilians.

Which is more evil?

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Let's get things into perspective. Who is more evil. The taliban or you? You have killed far more innocents in this so called war than the taliban did. Not utilizing the intelligence you have and conducting raids that kill civilians is the same as intentionally targeting them. The world needs to get rid of American imperialism before the taliban. America and NATO are nothing but oppressors. Why shouldn't we be mad? How mad were you when the taliban were killing off your civilians?

This is a seperate issue. There's no point appealing to America's sense of being right or wrong at the moment. All countries think they are right, so from the US' perspective it is right and since it's an enemy of the Taliban and Pakistan supposedly is against them, too, shouldn't you be happy about the US trying to weed out what Pakistan is unable to weed out? I can't speak to the civilian lives in this situation as I don't know enough about it.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

I believe we have a right to defend our sovereignty.

If it's your territory, why are there enemies of Afghanistan, going into Afghanistan and attacking coalition forces in it, working from your territory? That makes you complicit. Except it doesn't because we both know it's not really your territory except on a map; Pakistan has no control over this region, so umbrage over a US incursion to take out enemies that Pakistan cannot deal with means that Pakistan is tacitly approving these people. Either that, or it must condone these incursions. So, which is it? It's of paramount siliness to take offense at the US going into Pakistan territory nd conducting limited operations against forces Pakistan cannot deal with but claims to be opposed to.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WO...us.pakistan/index.html

Afghanistan doesn't seem to be too happy with your massacres either.

 

[JeepinEd]

Originally posted by: Isaiah

Originally posted by: JeepinEd
Didn't Pakistan recently conduct raids into Iraq?

No, you are thinking of Turkey, Pakistan and Iraq don't share a border.

You are right.
I stand corrected.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Let's get things into perspective. Who is more evil. The taliban or you? You have killed far more innocents in this so called war than the taliban did. Not utilizing the intelligence you have and conducting raids that kill civilians is the same as intentionally targeting them. The world needs to get rid of American imperialism before the taliban. America and NATO are nothing but oppressors. Why shouldn't we be mad? How mad were you when the taliban were killing off your civilians?

If that's your POV what do you expect from this conversation?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Fern
Personally, I don't see how Pakistani people can expect otherwise, I really doubt any country would allow raiders/attackers to come into their country and then retreat back into another and do nothing.

Ironoic much?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Let's get things into perspective. Who is more evil. The taliban or you? You have killed far more innocents in this so called war than the taliban did. Not utilizing the intelligence you have and conducting raids that kill civilians is the same as intentionally targeting them. The world needs to get rid of American imperialism before the taliban. America and NATO are nothing but oppressors. Why shouldn't we be mad? How mad were you when the taliban were killing off your civilians?

If that's your POV what do you expect from this conversation?

The American people needs to take care of their government. They are partly responsible for all these murders.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: K1052
If you really want to defend your sovereignty how about you start with the terrorist organizations operating within your borders.

How about you start with the war criminals operating within your borders?

The "I know you are but what am I" defense is a little 4th grade don't you think?

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Skoorb

I believe we have a right to defend our sovereignty.

If it's your territory, why are there enemies of Afghanistan, going into Afghanistan and attacking coalition forces in it, working from your territory? That makes you complicit. Except it doesn't because we both know it's not really your territory except on a map; Pakistan has no control over this region, so umbrage over a US incursion to take out enemies that Pakistan cannot deal with means that Pakistan is tacitly approving these people. Either that, or it must condone these incursions. So, which is it? It's of paramount siliness to take offense at the US going into Pakistan territory nd conducting limited operations against forces Pakistan cannot deal with but claims to be opposed to.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WO...us.pakistan/index.html

Afghanistan doesn't seem to be too happy with your massacres either.

That doesn't really answer my question but in the link you provide Karzai is upset over excessive destruction within Afhganistan, not attacking from Afghan into Pakistan.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Let's get things into perspective. Who is more evil. The taliban or you? You have killed far more innocents in this so called war than the taliban did. Not utilizing the intelligence you have and conducting raids that kill civilians is the same as intentionally targeting them. The world needs to get rid of American imperialism before the taliban. America and NATO are nothing but oppressors. Why shouldn't we be mad? How mad were you when the taliban were killing off your civilians?

If that's your POV what do you expect from this conversation?

The American people needs to take care of their government. They are partly responsible for all these murders.

You guys need to stop being little cowards and stand up to the Taliban so others don't have too do it for you.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Let's get things into perspective. Who is more evil. The taliban or you? You have killed far more innocents in this so called war than the taliban did. Not utilizing the intelligence you have and conducting raids that kill civilians is the same as intentionally targeting them. The world needs to get rid of American imperialism before the taliban. America and NATO are nothing but oppressors. Why shouldn't we be mad? How mad were you when the taliban were killing off your civilians?

If that's your POV what do you expect from this conversation?

The American people needs to take care of their government. They are partly responsible for all these murders.

Sorry there skippy. Even the leftist is asked would by and large agree to a full scale assault across your western border to go hunting for Bin'i.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: lupi
Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.

Translation: We will do whatever we want. Anybody who doesn't agree with us is our enemy. Anybody we define as a terrorist is a terrorist and will be killed.

This with us or against us threat just shows how oppressive you are.