Obama offers up cuts to SS and Medicare

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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,451
15,266
136
SS does contribute to the defecit since all the money is put into the general fund for use.

The problem with medicare is more people are getting on it AND rising costs of healthcare due to rising demands.

Yes and getting rid of Medicare will reduce the demand for health care and therefore reduce costs?

It would save us a lot of time if you would just come right out and say it, "more people should die to keep health care costs low".
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,005
49,782
136
No, but is fair considering I did pay less than what insurance would have paid him, private or government, because he doesn't accept insurance.

Yeah, he also works in the poor area of town with illegal immigrants because they pay cash and don't have insurance either. He is a great doctor and his practice is growing because doesn't have the overhead dealing with government or private insurance. Now, can he do big procedures? No. But he refers people to private/cash only insurance doctors and surgeons. It is a small and growing movement in the healthcare comminity.

It's highly unlikely that you paid less than what insurance would have paid him. If you don't have insurance of your own and you can afford it, you're a fool.
 

mwilliams8705

Member
Apr 4, 2013
85
0
0
Yes and getting rid of Medicare will reduce the demand for health care and therefore reduce costs?

It would save us a lot of time if you would just come right out and say it, "more people should die to keep health care costs low".


I guess it would.

I'm not advocating that at all. I'm advocating a return to people being responsible for themselves without having the socialized risk of us paying for it all.
 

mwilliams8705

Member
Apr 4, 2013
85
0
0
It's highly unlikely that you paid less than what insurance would have paid him. If you don't have insurance of your own and you can afford it, you're a fool.


I have insurance. It was a small problem, I have a deductible to meet, and he charged me less than what I would pay for an office visit. So how am I a fool exactly?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,005
49,782
136
I have insurance. It was a small problem, I have a deductible to meet, and he charged me less than what I would pay for an office visit. So how am I a fool exactly?

I'm sorry to hear that you apparently have crappy health insurance, but if you read what I wrote (which seems to be a problem for you), you would have seen that I said you were a fool if you had the means to purchase insurance and had not.

Overall, paying cash for procedures means you will pay more.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,451
15,266
136
Ridicule all you want, but it was just an example. The current system is broken, I say we break away from it completely, make a return to a simple system and make people more responsible for themselves. Yours is to feed the government, who is grossly inept at handling money and is great at making inefficiencies.

Except as pointed out to you already, the government run system is more efficient and the fraud and waste you complain about can be greatly reduced with an increase in spending for the department that handles fraud and waste and get this, that spending increase will still be loads less than the fraud it reduces.

But yes let's scrap that and try something that's already been done and didnt work and has been abandoned by most industrial nations instead of improving on what is working./s
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,451
15,266
136

mwilliams8705

Member
Apr 4, 2013
85
0
0
Except as pointed out to you already, the government run system is more efficient and the fraud and waste you complain about can be greatly reduced with an increase in spending for the department that handles fraud and waste and get this, that spending increase will still be loads less than the fraud it reduces.

But yes let's scrap that and try something that's already been done and didnt work and has been abandoned by most industrial nations instead of improving on what is working./s

The government system is not more efficient, I don't know why you say it is. They say medicare admin costs are 2%. Well of course its going to say it is 2% when they are putting out billions in dollars in procedures that number is gonna look small. But at the same time, it is on par with private insurance, except Doctors are not accepting new medicare/medicaid patients everyday. Hospitals are cutting personnel because of reduced payments of medicare, increasing the problem of demand, and still the government demands more from hospitals.



Also most industrial nations that have universal healthcare have huge taxes, drowning in debt, or are in austerity measures to prevent debt from growing.
 

mwilliams8705

Member
Apr 4, 2013
85
0
0

mwilliams8705

Member
Apr 4, 2013
85
0
0
I'm sorry to hear that you apparently have crappy health insurance, but if you read what I wrote (which seems to be a problem for you), you would have seen that I said you were a fool if you had the means to purchase insurance and had not.

Overall, paying cash for procedures means you will pay more.


I don't have crappy insurance, it is there in case of drastic emergency and I don't want to pay monthly a higher rate for the other one where office visits would be lower. At least I pay for health insurance, unlike some who see it is other people's perrogative to pay for them.

Paying cash for procedures costs less in this instance in the short term.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,436
3,549
126
There should be no safety net because abuse of that safety net has created the situation we face today. That situation is: how are we going to pay for all this stuff that more and more people are using instead of paying for it themselves?

Uh - no. It has less to do with frequency and much more to do with increased costs associated with use particularly in relation to LTC
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,451
15,266
136
I'm sorry to hear that you apparently have crappy health insurance, but if you read what I wrote (which seems to be a problem for you), you would have seen that I said you were a fool if you had the means to purchase insurance and had not.

Overall, paying cash for procedures means you will pay more.

No he has the best kind of insurance, its the type that allows you to shop around!

Ear infection? He can get it for half price!
Broken arm? He can get it fixed for a third of the price! Sure it takes him longer to get it looked at but once he finds a good deal it will be worth the wait in pain for the money he will save!
Stomach virus? No problem! It's cheap so long as you don't mind driving/calling around looking for the best deal while you throw up on yourself!
Have a heart attack? This guy gets it checked out for 1/8 of the price it would normally cost! Of course he probably would be dead while calling around looking for the best price but hey, he will go out with his dignity and thousands of dollars in healthcare savings!
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
You say wow, but it is. Why should I let other people pay for me or my family involuntarily? Why should I pay for people involuntarily? Why should doctors, nurses and staff work on people without getting compensated accordigly compared to private insurance rates?

Don't you find that immoral?


nope i do not.

Do you have car insurance?

i need to put your views into prospective. how old are you?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,005
49,782
136
The government system is not more efficient, I don't know why you say it is. They say medicare admin costs are 2%. Well of course its going to say it is 2% when they are putting out billions in dollars in procedures that number is gonna look small. But at the same time, it is on par with private insurance, except Doctors are not accepting new medicare/medicaid patients everyday. Hospitals are cutting personnel because of reduced payments of medicare, increasing the problem of demand, and still the government demands more from hospitals.

Also most industrial nations that have universal healthcare have huge taxes, drowning in debt, or are in austerity measures to prevent debt from growing.

I'm glad to see you are at least admitting that government insurance is the most efficient. What's odd however is that you seem to be complaining that Medicare costs too much but then also complain that Medicare pays doctors too little. Which one is it?

You forgot to mention how every nation with universal health care also pays much less for it than we do. What that means is that it acts to REDUCE debt, not make it bigger.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,436
3,549
126
You forgot to mention how every nation with universal health care also pays much less for it than we do. What that means is that it acts to REDUCE debt, not make it bigger.

Ah - that alone is a bit of a stretch as there are quite a few factors that go into health care costs besides UHC. I think price transparency, education costs, and limiting the number of doctors goes a long way towards causing our cost problems.
 

mwilliams8705

Member
Apr 4, 2013
85
0
0
bullshit.


Umm..no BS.

I payed $30 for the office visit for the cash only doctor. My insurance allowed $75 for an office visit. If I paid more monthly for the higher tier than I could get the $30 co pay, but in the course of the year it would cost me more since I am relatively healthy and don't need it.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,436
3,549
126
LTC aka people using it more.

No shit - using it more equals frequency which I said is less of a problem than rising costs. I suggest you look up the rapid rise in LTC costs - the rise is not completely (or mostly) about people using it more
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,005
49,782
136
Ah - that alone is a bit of a stretch as there are quite a few factors that go into health care costs besides UHC. I think price transparency, education costs, and limiting the number of doctors goes a long way towards causing our cost problems.

Sure, but as already covered our UHC system for the elderly (Medicare) is more efficient than private insurance. So even within our own system it's clear that UHC saves money.
 

mwilliams8705

Member
Apr 4, 2013
85
0
0
I'm glad to see you are at least admitting that government insurance is the most efficient. What's odd however is that you seem to be complaining that Medicare costs too much but then also complain that Medicare pays doctors too little. Which one is it?

You forgot to mention how every nation with universal health care also pays much less for it than we do. What that means is that it acts to REDUCE debt, not make it bigger.

I'm saying it is a flawed system, doctors are going away from it and doing private only now.

Also how every nation is having their own problems with it in terms of wait times, rationing of care, and they have less comorbidities of obesity, hypertension and diabetes than Americans have.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,005
49,782
136
I'm saying it is a flawed system, doctors are going away from it and doing private only now.

Also how every nation is having their own problems with it in terms of wait times, rationing of care, and they have less comorbidities of obesity, hypertension and diabetes than Americans have.

And yet the OECD analysis of health outcomes for those nations in many cases shows similar effectiveness to ours for a fraction of the cost. Also, obese and diabetic people actually cost the health care system less than healthy people because they die sooner.

From what you've been writing here it seems like you don't understand how medical systems work very well.
 
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