Obama recess appointing Cordray

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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Wouldn't the Justice Department be the ones arguing to the courts that the appointment is legit?

Also, why does a private entity need to sue in order to determine the Constitutionality of something the President does? Does Congress not have this power or could they simply not get the votes to do so right now?

Yes, most probably the Solicitor-General's office. It's still irrelevant, however, to the legality of the appointment, because their opinion is not precedent, and they can take the opposite position in court.

As to your second comment, I'm not sure what you mean. The legality of the appointment under the Constitution can only be decided by a court, so someone, somewhere has to bring the matter to court. Congress can't simply declare it unconstitutional. It isn't their role. Checks and balances.

- wolf
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
You and your like are a bunch of hypocrits. When Bush did a recess appointment you guys took it as a affront to the constitution. But now that Barry does it and violates the constitution to do it (since the Senate was in session), its ok.

With liberals, the ends ALWAYS justify the means.

Very accurate, it would have been better if you'd said "Democrats", but liberals or progressives would all qualify.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,823
49,521
136
That would certainly be my objection, that we should be fixing our existing regulatory structure rather than adding a new, centralized bureaucracy. That said, I am against pro forma sessions and think that every Presidential nominee deserves a timely vote up or down, with no filibuster because the Senate's privilege in determining its own operating procedures should not be construed to prevent it from carrying out its Constitutional duties. Therefore I have no problem with Obama appointing his nominee in a recess of three days. I do think the Senate should be forced to hold a hearing and a vote in its next regularly scheduled session, with a straight up or down vote; no filibusters or holds.

Well I mean if you want to change the agency, that's fine. The idea that you could nullify a statute after its been passed by refusing to staff it seems like a bad precedent to set for everyone. (don't like the defense budget? no secretary of defense!) I think we can and should argue all day long on the structure and purpose of government but we should not attempt to prevent agencies from undertaking their lawfully enacted duties.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,084
1,505
126
Exactly. The Dems started this nonsense when 'W' was in office and now that they are having it done to them, they don't like it very much. So Obama goes ahead and makes the recess appointment in direct violation of Congressional rules/precedent that would block such appointments. He wants to see what happens now. I guess the difference is that Dems don't like playing by the rules unless it suits their agenda right?

Anyway, this is unnecessarily provocative and will only hurt his standing with Americans further. This is a net-negative for the President in my view.

When Bush was in office the Dems also made a deal to not filibuster any but the most controversial of Bush's appointments. The current minority Senate party has filibustered more times in 3 years than in any previous 10 years combined. If they were willing to be reasonible I could see the problem with recess appointments. But when you're willing to hold up all government action to get your way like a tantrum throwing child, I'm gonna have to side with the person who's most acting like an adult (hint, it's NEVER a Republican as to be one you have to have the mind of a child).
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Yes, most probably the Solicitor-General's office. It's still irrelevant, however, to the legality of the appointment, because their opinion is not precedent, and they can take the opposite position in court.

As to your second comment, I'm not sure what you mean. The legality of the appointment under the Constitution can only be decided by a court, so someone, somewhere has to bring the matter to court. Congress can't simply declare it unconstitutional. It isn't their role. Checks and balances.

- wolf

I didn't mean that Congress would declare it unconstitutional, I was asking if Congress has the ability to ask the courts (or sue, whatever) to determine its constitutionality or if it had to be done by a private party.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,302
144
106
Exactly. The Dems started this nonsense when 'W' was in office and now that they are having it done to them, they don't like it very much. So Obama goes ahead and makes the recess appointment in direct violation of Congressional rules/precedent that would block such appointments. He wants to see what happens now. I guess the difference is that Dems don't like playing by the rules unless it suits their agenda right?

Anyway, this is unnecessarily provocative and will only hurt his standing with Americans further. This is a net-negative for the President in my view.

considering approval ratings for both POTUS and congress. I think you are wrong.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
I didn't mean that Congress would declare it unconstitutional, I was asking if Congress has the ability to ask the courts (or sue, whatever) to determine its constitutionality or if it had to be done by a private party.

Yeah I figured out what you meant after I sent my last post. Sure, Congress could do so, if they had the votes.

As to whether a private party could do so, depends on the question of standing. Private citizens have been allowed to sue various governmental agencies for all kinds of actions that have a general effect on the public. Basically, for standing you have to show that you suffered some tangible injury as a result of the action.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
As to whether a private party could do so, depends on the question of standing. Private citizens have been allowed to sue various governmental agencies for all kinds of actions that have a general effect on the public. Basically, for standing you have to show that you suffered some tangible injury as a result of the action.

Yeah, I knew that a private party could I just wasn't sure about Congress since I didn't read anything about an attempt to ask the courts. Wasn't sure if it was a vote thing or a legal issue preventing them from doing so.
 

Macamus Prime

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2011
3,108
0
0
With a director in place, the new Consumer Financial Protection Bureau can start overseeing the mortgage companies, payday lenders, debt collectors and other financial companies often blamed for practices that helped tank the economy.

Ah - the Rethuglicans probably aren't done feasting on good old capitalist "hard work", thus the purposeful delay. Why cut off their source of main kick backs? Conservatives fight and scream for a deregulated financial sector,.. as long as they reap the benefits of a no man's land rule in hawking trash investments.

Also, Obama lacks leadership, he does something leader like,.. and the shit eaters bitch and complain about it,... even though it's what their retard star player Dubbya did a few years ago.

//golf clap

Well played! Well played indeed!!

Now, wipe your mouth. Your screaming and yelling is sending particles of capitalist fecal matter flying across the room.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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The most that could be done, in theory, is to rush into court and get an injunction to prevent Cordray from operating as head of the agency. Probably wouldn't work.

That's what they will probably do, and any sane judge would see that the damage done by letting an illegal appointee run an organization for any amount of time can't be undone, so they should set an injunction against the appointment.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
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Did he also recess appoint the Labor Relation Board member that GOP has been filibustering because they don't like the agency?
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
That's what they will probably do, and any sane judge would see that the damage done by letting an illegal appointee run an organization for any amount of time can't be undone, so they should set an injunction against the appointment.

That presumes it IS an illegal appointment. Not clear from the Constitution itself, so that will depend on the prior case law. Also, if Congress cannot get the votes to pursue a court injunction, there is a sticky question of standing if a private citizen or group tries to pursue it. Most likely the appointment will stand as has every other recess appointment in the past.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
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That's what they will probably do, and any sane judge would see that the damage done by letting an illegal appointee run an organization for any amount of time can't be undone, so they should set an injunction against the appointment.

Go ahead and sue. Going to get nothing accomplished but remind Americans in an election year that GOP has been doing nothing but obstructing. It will go nowhere. Recess appointments are perfectly legal.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
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That presumes it IS an illegal appointment. Not clear from the Constitution itself, so that will depend on the prior case law. Also, if Congress cannot get the votes to pursue a court injunction, there is a sticky question of standing if a private citizen or group tries to pursue it. Most likely the appointment will stand as has every other recess appointment in the past.

Exactly, who has standing to sue? Senate? Is the Senate going to pass a resolution to sue? No.
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
76
Yeah I figured out what you meant after I sent my last post. Sure, Congress could do so, if they had the votes.

As to whether a private party could do so, depends on the question of standing. Private citizens have been allowed to sue various governmental agencies for all kinds of actions that have a general effect on the public. Basically, for standing you have to show that you suffered some tangible injury as a result of the action.
Why would it require the entire congress through a vote and not just one person in congress through a lawsuit?
See McConnell v. Federal Election Commission, which led to Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission?
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
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Senate is still in session, this is unconstitutional.

They aren't in session. Some guy comes in once in a while, gavels in and gavels out. Just like GOP can claim that makes them in session, Obama can claim that the second that guy gavels out, they are on recess.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
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You and your like are a bunch of hypocrits. When Bush did a recess appointment you guys took it as a affront to the constitution. But now that Barry does it and violates the constitution to do it (since the Senate was in session), its ok.

With liberals, the ends ALWAYS justify the means.

Actually, you're the hypocrite. Where is your criticism of the Bush recess appointments?

Silence. You did not, right? But now you will, for no reason other than it's Obaba?

And you have gall, you hypocrite, to say others are being hypocritical?

Now, two wrongs don't make a right - are both hypocrites? No.

You're ignorant. You don't understand the issue, the difference between the issues in the appointments between Bush and Obama that make Obama's better than Bush's.

Here's a little taste of the history.

Under Clinton, the Republicans abused the power of approval. They did things like leave massive vacancies on courts causing crises simply to try to wait years to get the chance for the next president to make appointments, or other power plays. They'd threaten not to approve any judicial appointments at all as a way of extorting him to meet demands they had they had no basis for making, like giving them advance written notice of any recess appointments.

They even changed the rules for approvals to make it easier for Republicans to block appointments, requiring only one instead of both Senators to object.

Of course, as soon as Bush took office all that changed - no more advance written notice of recess appointments, back to both Senators needed to block an appointment, etc.

And the Republicans shamelessly used the powers they had denied Clinton - recess appointments went way up and were not any controversy. But why did they happen?

Democrats had used recess appointments more for things like getting around bigotry. Truman appointed a black judge blocked by Southern racists. Clinton's nomination for ambssador was not voted on by the Senate - he was gay. Clinton recess appointed him and he became the first openly gay ambassador.

In contrast, while Republicans had blocked many of Clinton's judicial appointments, Bush was much more radical in appointing right-wing nominees, even replacing the evaluator of nomminees since the ABA used by both parties since Eisenhower with the radical right-wing Federalist Society. Democrats gave him a lot of latitude and approved far more of his nominees than they had Clinton's, but blocked a handful of the worst for very good reason. Republicans howled, dishonestly, that the Democrats were highly obstructionist.

This was the case where Bush recess appointed even those handful of judges.

Another case was that Bush wanted to appoint a man many found to be hugely unqualified to be the US ambassador to the UN, a man openly hostile to the agency, John Bolton.

The Senate would not confirm him - so Bush recess appointed him. This is the level of crap nominee Bush nominated with the 'recesss power'.

Bush made 171 recess appointments.

Again in contrast, Republican objections to nominees repeatedly are not based on any legitimate objections, but sometimes even admittedly - as in the case of Cordrey, have nothing to do with the nominee's qulifications, but are political - in the bad sense of the word, as in refusing to give any latitude for the President not sharing their ideology, or in this case abusing the power of approval to try to make an end run around the agency even functioning.

This was the case as well in the example of Clinton appointing a black judge to the US Court of Appeals that had been vacant for *ten years*.

Clinton finally made a recess appointment after trying to get Republicans to vote on him for years, just before he left office.

The objections were not about his qualifications - in fact he was so clearly qualified even Bush chose not to be seen denying the appointment and nominated him himself.

No problem approving him, when BUSH made the nomination instead of Clinton.

The issue isn't as simple as all nominations and blocking being the same between the parties. Republicans have played politics far more and abused the power.

Just as they are here. There are very different reasons between Obama and Bush recess appointments.

In fact, it was bad enough with Bush, that the last two years of his presidency when Democrats took control, they kept the Senate in session to prevent more appointments.

So Bush's 171 were just in the six years before. In contrast, by Wikipedia's count this is Obama's 18th recess appointment and only two failed approval by the Senate.
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
76
This is a nice precedent he set here though.
Next time a future Bush wants to nominate John Bolton to be US Secretary of State through recess appointment, now they can do so.
Next thing you now, Ron Paul might become Chair of the Federal Reserve Board through recess appointment. D:

The next time any politician does this, no one should complain since the precedent has already been set.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Why would it require the entire congress through a vote and not just one person in congress through a lawsuit?
See McConnell v. Federal Election Commission, which led to Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission?

In general, lawsuits involving issues between Congress and the President have required a vote by Congress to sue. The Supreme Court doesn't recognize one member's right to sue on behalf of the entire Congress. A member could sue over an issue affecting just them, however - say the White House had a member detained to keep him from voting.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
This is a nice precedent he set here though.
Next time a future Bush wants to nominate John Bolton to be US Secretary of State through recess appointment, now they can do so.
Next thing you now, Ron Paul might become Chair of the Federal Reserve Board through recess appointment. D:

The next time any politician does this, no one should complain since the precedent has already been set.

Um, John Bolton WAS a recess appointment, and he then failed to win approval.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
Ah - the Rethuglicans probably aren't done feasting on good old capitalist "hard work", thus the purposeful delay. Why cut off their source of main kick backs? Conservatives fight and scream for a deregulated financial sector,.. as long as they reap the benefits of a no man's land rule in hawking trash investments.
Psst... your Dems get plenty of contributions from Wall St too genius.

And Barney's Frank was dead against any reform of Fannie/Freddie as the bubble was getting bigger and bigger in 2003-2004, because Fan & Fred were significant contributors to Democrats.

Yes, I am against this agency for the record. Because I believe it will hamper lending and do exactly the OPPOSITE of what you retards think it will do. You want oversight but still expect lenders to make unprofitable loans to unqualified buyers without adequate risk compensation. You want massive new regulations yet stand in denial of its dampening effect on liquidity in the marketplace.

Here's an idea... how about expecting people to stop going through life clueless and maybe expect them to be more street smart, more rational, and less knee-jerk emotional? There have been and always will be spivvy scumbags in life and we shouldn't try to protect against everything bad that can happen to someone. Yes, during the housing boom some unfortunates got ripped off with accreting mortgages they didn't understand. But they wanted that house so badly... they were buying em, flipping em like pancakes. Until one day the music stopped and suddenly the piper had to be paid.

I'm sorry, I'm just very libertarian about many things. I have seen the incompetence of government over and over and frankly I'm not convinced we aren't all better off on our own for most things. This new bureacracy is not going to do one damn thing except grow government and the NEXT disaster is going to happen in spite of its creation.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
This is a nice precedent he set here though.
Next time a future Bush wants to nominate John Bolton to be US Secretary of State through recess appointment, now they can do so.
Next thing you now, Ron Paul might become Chair of the Federal Reserve Board through recess appointment. D:

The next time any politician does this, no one should complain since the precedent has already been set.

There is a long precedent for recess appointments. Obama didn't set it. The precedent that Obama blocked Senate GOP from setting is pretending to be in session while they are on recess by sending a guy to gavel in and gavel out once in a while. If they are in session, they should get their butts back in town and start doing the advise and consent work they are tasked by the Constitution to do.
 

RedChief

Senior member
Dec 20, 2004
533
0
81
They aren't in session. Some guy comes in once in a while, gavels in and gavels out. Just like GOP can claim that makes them in session, Obama can claim that the second that guy gavels out, they are on recess.

Again with the hypocrisy. Reid did this exact same action during the last two years of the Bush presidency and liberals like you were all for it.

Obama shows he is a authoritarian thug. Even when rules and precedent keep him from doing what he wants, he just does it anyways.
 
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