Obama suggests value-added tax may be an option

[yllus]

I don't see what other option America has at this point. You've built up a lot of debt over the last ten years that is better paid sooner rather than later - the more you delay, the more you'll have to pay. Your only other realistic option is to inflate your way out of the debt and we all know what that'll lead to.

The best you can hope for, I think, is a VAT with a sunset clause built in at the 5 year mark. Hopefully then with a good part of the debt paid off the VAT disappears and you start moving in the direction of lower taxes again.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I read through this thread and I can't even single out one post to comment on. There are so many opinions without even understanding what a VAT is.

I still can't believe so many people believe that being rich/wealthy is evil and immediately makes you responsible for paying for entitlements for everyone else. Amazing.

Maybe if some of you worked hard, made some money, realized that you don't get to keep a whole fucking shitload of that money because your neighbor has been out of work for 2 fucking years and goes to the ER for the sniffles and doesn't save a dime for their retirement, you might have a different opinion.

Oh those "evil" rich. How dare they make money.

 

[Bowfinger]

So? Just because one earns more doesn't mean they should pay more if they don't spend it. And those evil rich people will still be paying more money than the rest of us.

"Evil" rich? Another false caricature by someone who cannot adequately address another's actual points.

The "rich" should pay more not only because they can better afford it, but because they draw far greater benefit from our extraordinary physical, financial, and educational infrastructure than do the poor and middle class. This infrastructure, greatly funded through taxes, is society's investment in providing all Americans with the means and opportunities to succeed. Taxes are the return on that investment.

Hmm... must have hit a nerve, eh?

Indeed. I have a low tolerance for stupidity ... especially willful stupidity from those I know have the potential to do better.

You might actually contribute interesting and productive discussion if you weren't devoted to endlessly parroting the same wing-nut bumper sticker catch phrases. But perhaps I misoverestimate you and you really are retarded. Who knows?

 

[Bowfinger]

I read through this thread and I can't even single out one post to comment on. There are so many opinions without even understanding what a VAT is.

I still can't believe so many people believe that being rich/wealthy is evil and immediately makes you responsible for paying for entitlements for everyone else. Amazing.

Maybe if some of you worked hard, made some money, realized that you don't get to keep a whole fucking shitload of that money because your neighbor has been out of work for 2 fucking years and goes to the ER for the sniffles and doesn't save a dime for their retirement, you might have a different opinion.

Oh those "evil" rich. How dare they make money.

To repeat myself:

"Evil" rich? Another false caricature by someone who cannot adequately address another's actual points.

The "rich" should pay more not only because they can better afford it, but because they draw far greater benefit from our extraordinary physical, financial, and educational infrastructure than do the poor and middle class. This infrastructure, greatly funded through taxes, is society's investment in providing all Americans with the means and opportunities to succeed. Taxes are the return on that investment.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

ITT: we rant and rave as if the law is already on the books.

 

[Bowfinger]

I don't see what other option America has at this point. You've built up a lot of debt over the last ten years that is better paid sooner rather than later - the more you delay, the more you'll have to pay. Your only other realistic option is to inflate your way out of the debt and we all know what that'll lead to.

The best you can hope for, I think, is a VAT with a sunset clause built in at the 5 year mark. Hopefully then with a good part of the debt paid off the VAT disappears and you start moving in the direction of lower taxes again.

Once we go through the expense of implementing a VAT, we will never give it up. Best to raise the taxes we already have -- AND cut spending -- rather than find new regressive ways to fund our irresponsibility.

 

[Jack Ryan]

To repeat myself:

"Evil" rich? Another false caricature by someone who cannot adequately address another's actual points.

The "rich" should pay more not only because they can better afford it, but because they draw far greater benefit from our extraordinary physical, financial, and educational infrastructure than do the poor and middle class. This infrastructure, greatly funded through taxes, is society's investment in providing all Americans with the means and opportunities to succeed. Taxes are the return on that investment.

How do I (evil rich) benefit from providing health care, SS, and income entitlements to the poor and middle class again?

Btw, I already know talking to you is worthless since you start the paragraph with "The "rich" should pay more not only because they can better afford it...". Wow, what fucking planet are you on.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

"Evil" rich? Another false caricature by someone who cannot adequately address another's actual points.

The "rich" should pay more not only because they can better afford it, but because they draw far greater benefit from our extraordinary physical, financial, and educational infrastructure than do the poor and middle class. This infrastructure, greatly funded through taxes, is society's investment in providing all Americans with the means and opportunities to succeed. Taxes are the return on that investment.



Indeed. I have a low tolerance for stupidity ... especially willful stupidity from those I know have the potential to do better.

You might actually contribute interesting and productive discussion if you weren't devoted to endlessly parroting the same wing-nut bumper sticker catch phrases. But perhaps I misoverestimate you and you really are retarded. Who knows?

Uh, have you been paying attention? Even your hero BHO has been going there with the whole "evil rich" nonsense. Open your eyes bowfinger.

"afford" has nothing to do with what one should pay you twit. This isn't the marxist "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" nation even though you people are tying to make it one.
"benefit"? Oh fugginleeze. life isn't "fair" and some people will always benefit more than others but how can you morons even come close to trying to claim the rich benefit more when they are the ones actually paying taxes for these things? Did you not see that half of Americans don't pay income taxes?

Yeah, I have a low tolerance for stupidity as well. It's quite obvious I hit a nerve with the marxist statement but you just cemented it with your post(which equates to the marxist quote above). Meh, don't worry - you don't have to admit you're one - we already know it.

 

[Tristicus]

ITT: we rant and rave as if the law is already on the books.

ILH: We say everything is a brilliant idea until it is passed and we see how stupid it is.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Uh, have you been paying attention? Even your hero BHO has been going there with the whole "evil rich" nonsense. Open your eyes bowfinger.

"afford" has nothing to do with what one should pay you twit. This isn't the marxist "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" nation even though you people are tying to make it one.
"benefit"? Oh fugginleeze. life isn't "fair" and some people will always benefit more than others but how can you morons even come close to trying to claim the rich benefit more when they are the ones actually paying taxes for these things? Did you not see that half of Americans don't pay income taxes?

Yeah, and not only that, many are actually profiting from their tax returns and getting back more money than what was withheld. That is complete and utter crap. I'm tired of hearing "The evil rich need to pay more!" ALL people need to be contributing and those ridiculous loopholes/credits need to be eliminated or at a minimum, you shouldn't be able to get more back than you put in during the year. PERIOD.

50% of Americans are not "poor" so the whole idea they don't pay any taxes is ludicrous. Decide to have 8 kids while having a middle class income? Tough crap, that was your decision -- time to pay up.

 

[Bowfinger]

How do I (evil rich) benefit from providing health care, SS, and income entitlements to the poor and middle class again?

Btw, I already know talking to you is worthless since you start the paragraph with "The "rich" should pay more not only because they can better afford it...". Wow, what fucking planet are you on.

I'm on planet Real World, where what I said is perfectly true, whether you care to admit it or not.

I hate to keep posting the same things in multiple threads. If you truly want an answer to your question (as opposed to the blind ideological posturing I suspect), mosey down to the "Is it bad to be rich" thread and read the last page or so. I've explained how the rich not only benefit, but benefit far more from America's extraordinary physical, financial, and educational infrastructure. Let's see if you're up to the task of addressing my points (my actual points, not some retarded caricature of them like "evil rich") with a well-reasoned counter argument of your own.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

I'm on planet Real World, where what I said is perfectly true, whether you care to admit it or not.

I hate to keep posting the same things in multiple threads. If you truly want an answer to your question (as opposed to the blind ideological posturing I suspect), mosey down to the "Is it bad to be rich" thread and read the last page or so. I've explained how the rich not only benefit, but benefit far more from America's extraordinary physical, financial, and educational infrastructure. Let's see if you're up to the task of addressing my points (my actual points, not some retarded caricature of them like "evil rich") with a well-reasoned counter argument of your own.

Uh no. When the "rich" are paying almost all of the bill, how exactly are they the ones that benefit "far more"?

 

[nonlnear]

Uh no. When the "rich" are paying almost all of the bill, how exactly are they the ones that benefit "far more"?

I believe the argument goes something like: "Well it's our wonderful government which created the economic stability and lack of domestic warfare that allowed them the opportunity to get rich and/or stay rich in the first place."

It's one of those touchy-feely "Don't you dare try to analyze me quantitatively" arguments. You know, the ones that if you dare try to argue against you must be an evil monster.

 

[yllus]

Once we go through the expense of implementing a VAT, we will never give it up. Best to raise the taxes we already have -- AND cut spending -- rather than find new regressive ways to fund our irresponsibility.

I think I agree with that, but the issue is that politically it's a non-starter. Mr. Obama has made certain campaign promises on taxes that will not allow him to do as you say. The VAT is different enough (while of course it really isn't) that it may be saleable.

 

[Linflas]

I am all for a VAT as long as it is implemented by a 28th Amendment that states that the 16th Amendment is repealed and that no VAT shall be enacted until the 28th Amendment is ratified by the states. Further the 28th Amendment should state that "Congress shall have NO power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived".

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I am all for a VAT as long as it is implemented by a 28th Amendment that states that the 16th Amendment is repealed and that no VAT shall be enacted until the 28th Amendment is ratified by the states.

Come on now, expecting proper Constitutional procedures to be followed? Are you crazy??

 

[Bowfinger]

Uh, have you been paying attention? Even your hero BHO has been going there with the whole "evil rich" nonsense. Open your eyes bowfinger.

More phony arguments. Obama's not my hero, and I challenge you to find a single example of Obama calling the rich evil. I believe I'm going to add "evil rich" to the lexicon of terms one can use to immediately identify the speaker as a partisan idiot (see also "Communist," etc. when used to refer to typical Democrats).

"afford" has nothing to do with what one should pay you twit. ...

Read the rest of the sentence you stupid ass:

"not only because they can better afford it, but because they draw far greater benefit from our extraordinary physical, financial, and educational infrastructure than do the poor and middle class. This infrastructure, greatly funded through taxes, is society's investment in providing all Americans with the means and opportunities to succeed. Taxes are the return on that investment."
​

(I know, reading is hard.)

"benefit"? Oh fugginleeze. life isn't "fair" and some people will always benefit more than others but how can you morons even come close to trying to claim the rich benefit more when they are the ones actually paying taxes for these things?

They pay more because they benefit more. Working As Intended. What is it you're whining about again?

Did you not see that half of Americans don't pay income taxes?

Nice sound bite. Another of the wing-nut bumper sticker points "your kind" love to parrot endlessly. You ignore the fact that they (in general) pay plenty of other taxes, at an effective rate greater than many at the very top. (You also ignore the fact that this much-quoted 50% includes people like my teenage son who is a full-time student. He worked enough hours that he had to file a federal return. It was less than the standard deduction, however, so he got all of it back. It's a scandal!!!)

Yeah, I have a low tolerance for stupidity as well.

Then stop being such a stupid partisan tool and use your brain for something beyond holding your ears apart. There's nothing wrong with being conservative. Just try to live up to the conservative stereotype of being well informed, thoughtful, and reasoned ... instead of being a hysterical buffoon.


That's all for now. Off to work, then to a jazz concert tonight at my son's college (yes, the one who paid no federal income tax). He's an excellent musician, though I'm not looking forward to him trying to earn a living in that field. Oh well, it's what he loves, and he does seem to have the talent.

 

[Bowfinger]

Uh no. When the "rich" are paying almost all of the bill, how exactly are they the ones that benefit "far more"?

I know this is hard, because it involves reading, understanding, and following directions. The answers you seek (to avoid) are in the other thread.

 

[Bowfinger]

I believe the argument goes something like: "Well it's our wonderful government which created the economic stability and lack of domestic warfare that allowed them the opportunity to get rich and/or stay rich in the first place."

It's one of those touchy-feely "Don't you dare try to analyze me quantitatively" arguments. You know, the ones that if you dare try to argue against you must be an evil monster.

I'd have a lot more respect for you guys if any of you had the balls and the intellect to address one's actual points instead of your lame straw man caricatures and outright fabrications. But you don't.

 

[Bowfinger]

I think I agree with that, but the issue is that politically it's a non-starter. Mr. Obama has made certain campaign promises on taxes that will not allow him to do as you say. The VAT is different enough (while of course it really isn't) that it may be saleable.

Then Obama should man up and admit he was wrong. But he won't.

 

[Sinsear]

===========================================

It's been working for Europe so it will work here.

Everyone pays through the supply chain to the end of the line.

Best of all it pisses Republicans and the rich off royaly so it's a double blessing from the Messiah :thumbsup:

Make it so

Methinks Dave does not understand what the VAT tax is all about. It will hurt the "people of walmart" far more than the "evil rich".

 

[Jack Ryan]

I'm on planet Real World, where what I said is perfectly true, whether you care to admit it or not.

I hate to keep posting the same things in multiple threads. If you truly want an answer to your question (as opposed to the blind ideological posturing I suspect), mosey down to the "Is it bad to be rich" thread and read the last page or so. I've explained how the rich not only benefit, but benefit far more from America's extraordinary physical, financial, and educational infrastructure. Let's see if you're up to the task of addressing my points (my actual points, not some retarded caricature of them like "evil rich") with a well-reasoned counter argument of your own.

Unfortunately, I have better things to do than worry about trying to convince one socialist that I can spend my money better than the government does. You will have to see the light from someone else.

 

[soccerballtux]

honestly I would rather tax now while the babyboomers are still alive. We need them to pay for all the shit they have gotten over the last 40 years. or atleast part of it.

Hm. This is actually a very, very good point.

 

[soccerballtux]

I don't see what other option America has at this point. You've built up a lot of debt over the last ten years that is better paid sooner rather than later - the more you delay, the more you'll have to pay. Your only other realistic option is to inflate your way out of the debt and we all know what that'll lead to.

The best you can hope for, I think, is a VAT with a sunset clause built in at the 5 year mark. Hopefully then with a good part of the debt paid off the VAT disappears and you start moving in the direction of lower taxes again.

Please tell me the last time we passed a tax and said it would disappear, and then actually removed it or decreased the tax?

 

[yllus]

I don't see what other option America has at this point. You've built up a lot of debt over the last ten years that is better paid sooner rather than later - the more you delay, the more you'll have to pay. Your only other realistic option is to inflate your way out of the debt and we all know what that'll lead to.

The best you can hope for, I think, is a VAT with a sunset clause built in at the 5 year mark. Hopefully then with a good part of the debt paid off the VAT disappears and you start moving in the direction of lower taxes again.

Please tell me the last time we passed a tax and said it would disappear, and then actually removed it or decreased the tax?

See bolded. Also I believe the average U.S. taxpayer's rates have declined significantly in the last twenty years or so.