Brainonska511
Lifer
- Dec 10, 2005
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MOST new yorkers oppose it and are highly offended.
count me as one of them.
Congratulations. You get to exercise your right to be offended.
MOST new yorkers oppose it and are highly offended.
count me as one of them.
The mosque is obviously in bad taste. Should it be legal, probably. Should the people who run it fvck off? Yes. They say it's peaceful, so go make a peaceful mosque elsewhere as this is clearly pissing off literally millions of people.
Both mosques essentially one-room operations routinely turn people away for lack of space.
http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748704271804575405330350430368.htmlWTC Mosque, Meet the Auschwitz Nuns
Pope John Paul offers a model of tolerance for a heated controversy.
- By WILLIAM MCGURN
With every passing day, the dispute over the planned Islamic Center near Ground Zero grows more acrimonious. These feelings will probably only get worse today, when the New York City Landmark Preservation Commission is expected to remove another hurdle by ruling against landmark status for the undistinguished old building the center will replace.
The Journal Editorial Report panel discusses this week's ruling in favor of building a mosque near Ground Zero that has had New Yorkers intensely divided.
So maybe it's time to look beyond the lawyers and landmark preservation commissions and regulatory agencies. When we do, it will be hard to find a better example than the grace and wisdom Pope John Paul II exhibited during a similar clash involving another hallowed site on whose grounds innocents were also murdered: Auschwitz.
In the 1980s, Carmelite nuns moved into an abandoned building on the edge of the former Nazi death camp to pray for the souls taken there. As with the dispute over the mosque near Ground Zero, the convent's presence escalated into a clash not only between different faiths but between competing historical narratives. As with today's clash too, it seemed intractable until the Polish pope stepped in.
Pope John Paul II wasn't afraid to bend to others' sensitivities.
For Jews, Auschwitz is a symbol of the Shoah, and the presence of a convent looked like an effort to Christianize a place of Jewish suffering. Suspicions were further aroused by a fundraising brochure from an outside Catholic group, which referred to the convent as a "guarantee of the conversion of strayed brothers." The protests mounted over the course of several years and various interfaith agreements, and pointed to the real strains that remained between Poles and Jews over a shared history with very different perspectives.
Many Catholics, not just in Poland, could not understand how nuns begging God's forgiveness and praying for the souls of the departed could possibly offend anyone. There was also a nationalist element. Many members of the Polish resistance had also been murdered at Auschwitz. And again like our present controversy at Ground Zero, intemperate reactions and statements from both sides only inflamed passions.
So what did Pope John Paul II do? He waited, and he counseled. And when he saw that the nuns were not budgingand that their presence was doing more harm than goodhe asked the Carmelites to move. He acknowledged that his letter would probably be a trial to each of the sisters, but asked them to accept it while continuing to pursue their mission in that same city at another convent that had been built for them.
Deputy Editorial Page Editor Bret Stephens and Editorial Board member Matthew Kaminski on the plan for a 'Mosque at Ground Zero,' and Senior Editorial Writer Joseph Rago reports on the Missouri results.
Let's remember what this means. By their own lights, the nuns believed they were doing only good. They may have had a legal title to be where they were. And it is likely that they never would have been forced to move by local authorities had they insisted on staying.
There's a lesson here. Even those who favor this new Islamic Center surely can appreciate why some American feelings are rubbed raw by the idea of a mosque at a place where Islamic terrorists killed more than 2,700 innocent people. If feelings in Auschwitz were raw after nearly half a century, it's not hard to see why they would remain raw at Ground Zero after less than a decade.
On the other hand, Mayor Michael Bloomberg is right about the law: Our freedom of religion means nothing if it doesn't mean freedom of religion for all. Indeed, the Becket Fund for Religious Libertya sort of ACLU for freedom of religionhas spent decades defending churches, synagogues, mosques and even a Zoroastrian temple against public officials who have tried to invoke zoning laws or arcane regulations to keep them off a property.
Yet not all big questions canor shouldbe reduced to legal right. Living together as neighbors in a free and inescapably diverse society requires more skills than just knowing how to hire sharp lawyers. Sometimes it requires leaders willing to sound a grace note, even yielding to the feelings of others who may not see our plans the same way we do.
For their part, the two people at the heart of this centerImam Feisal Abdul Rauf and his wife, Daisy Khandefend the center as an antidote to 9/11. "Our religion has been hijacked by the extremists," Ms. Khan told National Public Radio, "and this center is going to create that counter-momentum which will amplify the voices of the moderate Muslims."
Perhaps. But it's hard to argue with the Anti-Defamation League's assessment that the controversy created by building the center at this location "is counterproductive to the healing process."
Without doubt Pope John Paul II did not share the more malevolent interpretations attached to the presence of the Carmelites at Auschwitz. By asking the nuns to withdraw, he didn't concede them either. What he did was recognize that having the right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
The only fools who are offended by the mosque are those that equate all of Islam with the attack on the WTC. That somehow, even American citizens who happen to be Muslim share some responsibility for the attacks. You also have the right to be stupid in this country. Exercise it proudly.
What if I opened a Starbucks two blocks from Mecca? The only fools who are offended by a Western franchise are those that equate the West with the attacks on Iraq and Afghanistan, correct?
Yes, because there is tons of space available in Manhattan to do these kinds of things. It's 2 blocks away. How far is far enough? 3 blocks? 3 miles? Hoboken, NJ? There are already 2 other mosques in the area and they are sorely lacking in space: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/nyregion/14mosque.html?ref=nyregion
And why is it in bad taste? It wasn't Islam that attacked us. It was a few extremist fuckheads that completely twist the meaning of Islam for the purpose of violence. To claim it is in bad taste is to draw some false link between American Muslims and Al-Qaeda.
Finally, it's not just this mosque/community center that is facing opposition. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html?scp=2&sq=mosque&st=cse
Yes, because we should look to Saudi Arabia when we want examples of religious and cultural tolerance. There isn't a big enough eye roll for this line of "reasoning."
You know why.And why is it in bad taste? It wasn't Islam that attacked us. It was a few extremist fuckheads that completely twist the meaning of Islam for the purpose of violence. To claim it is in bad taste is to draw some false link between American Muslims and Al-Qaeda.
Yes, because we should look to Saudi Arabia when we want examples of religious and cultural tolerance. There isn't a big enough eye roll for this line of "reasoning."
Hamas was involved with 9/11?Its disgraceful. Obama should have kept his damn mouth shut. Period. They have a mosque 12 blocks away, you need space, expand that one. The head of this venture blamed the US policies for 9/11 and never criticized Hamas.
But wait, isn't the origin and epicenter of Islam, Saudi Arabia? Got eye rolls big enough for your reasoning?
Hamas was involved with 9/11?
Hamas was involved with 9/11?
Jaskalas said:It's a terrorist organization which they are quite sympathetic to.
Which is exactly the point, if there's no tolerance in Muslim countries for other religions, what the hell makes people think they want tolerance here?
Did you say the same thing on "Draw Mohammed Day"?This is an example of the president having a tin ear. While legally there's absolutely nothing wrong with building a center and mosque in that location, it's certainly understandable why it would rub people of this country the wrong way. The president should have left the matter alone, but by coming out (in front of a muslim group even) and supporting the mosque at ground zero, he's showing that he has a political tin ear.
The President is right.
The mosque has every right to be there like it or not.
You mean like Draw Mohmmed Day? Oh wait.Right, I think we've established that, but just because they have a right to do something doesn't make it a good idea. Neo-Nazi's have the right to speak of hating Jews, and minorities, is it a good idea?
The President is right.
The mosque has every right to be there like it or not.