Obama To put Terrif on Chinese tires

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Steel vs assembled products etc.

Probably quite a bit of food and military products. Other than that, not much else would be my guess.

is the raw steel industry part of the manufacturing sector? i wouldn't have guessed so. providing raw materials, even refined raw materials != manufacturing in plain english.


well apparently the .gov believes that refining raw materials is manufacturing

 

[tk149]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
I for one, think this is a GOOD thing.

EVERYTHING that comes from China, but used to be manufactured here, should be hit with VERY HIGH tarriffs.

Seems like the ones who benefit the least from "free trade," are the American workers whose jobs get sent to third-world nations.

FUCK the world economy...I care about the American economy...and American workers.

Fvck poor people. How dare they aspire to a higher quality of life through cheaper goods! Keep them downtrodden in their smelly unwashed masses! America! Fvck Yeah!

And what the hell happened to Moonie?

 

[BigDH01]

Originally posted by: halik
This is by far the stupidest thing Obama has done as a president. In the best case scenario, it will get overturned at WTO and he traded off part of our 401ks for his political gain. In the worst case scenario (things get out of hand), we're fucked for the next 10 years.

There are proper channels to file such complaints (WTO), having USTR institute the tariffs is just screeming for a trade war.

Why shouldn't we initiate tariffs? Although they claim to be using a basket of currencies now to fix the RMB, it is still tightly bound to the dollar link.

As long as they don't float their currency, which would allow the account deficit to balance, we should have every right to fight back. If we truly want a globally competitive marketplace, you have to let our labor compete. They will never compete if the RMB is always devalued compared to the USD.

It's bad enough that they have a huge labor factor advantage, but when you toss in a fixed currency, American labor never stood a chance. And if the Chinese continue to adjust the "basket" so that the Euro has a larger effect, expect to see them become more protectionist against the Chinese as well.

I don't think Obama is doing this for the right reasons, but it doesn't bother me that we're using tariffs to fight Chinese price advantages. If they allow their currency to float freely, then tariffs should be severely reduced (if that's how we compensate for the greater factor mobility capital has over labor) or eliminated.

 

[alphatarget1]

Tariffs are unnecessary. I as a consumer would NOT buy Chinese tires. Tires are too important to go cheap on.

If they can put melamine in baby formula, they can do anything in the name of profit. The unions are better off running ads against safety of (many) Chinese products.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
I for one, think this is a GOOD thing.

EVERYTHING that comes from China, but used to be manufactured here, should be hit with VERY HIGH tarriffs.

Seems like the ones who benefit the least from "free trade," are the American workers whose jobs get sent to third-world nations.

FUCK the world economy...I care about the American economy...and American workers.

Um, the only one you have to blame is Americans. Americans wanted cheaper prices, the companies responded by sending the jobs over seas where it is cheaper.

It should work in a unilateral way. Whatever rate the chinese put on American goods, we put on theirs. If they leave our products sitting in port until it goes bad, we do the same with theirs.

 

[DesiPower]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Tariffs are unnecessary. I as a consumer would NOT buy Chinese tires. Tires are too important to go cheap on.

If they can put melamine in baby formula, they can do anything in the name of profit. The unions are better off running ads against safety of (many) Chinese products.

Try explaining that the Walmart customers. There are too many illegal immigrants and babbydaddies to care about "quality".
Tariff is what we need to ask china to open up its market to free trade.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: BigDH01

Originally posted by: halik
This is by far the stupidest thing Obama has done as a president. In the best case scenario, it will get overturned at WTO and he traded off part of our 401ks for his political gain. In the worst case scenario (things get out of hand), we're fucked for the next 10 years.

There are proper channels to file such complaints (WTO), having USTR institute the tariffs is just screeming for a trade war.

Why shouldn't we initiate tariffs? Although they claim to be using a basket of currencies now to fix the RMB, it is still tightly bound to the dollar link.

As long as they don't float their currency, which would allow the account deficit to balance, we should have every right to fight back. If we truly want a globally competitive marketplace, you have to let our labor compete. They will never compete if the RMB is always devalued compared to the USD.

It's bad enough that they have a huge labor factor advantage, but when you toss in a fixed currency, American labor never stood a chance. And if the Chinese continue to adjust the "basket" so that the Euro has a larger effect, expect to see them become more protectionist against the Chinese as well.

I don't think Obama is doing this for the right reasons, but it doesn't bother me that we're using tariffs to fight Chinese price advantages. If they allow their currency to float freely, then tariffs should be severely reduced (if that's how we compensate for the greater factor mobility capital has over labor) or eliminated.

Because there are proper channels to have trade complains resolved by 3rd party and it doesn't lead to quid-pro-quo stupidity that we just saw. If the union reps truly thought they had a valid claim, they would've had USTR bitch at the WTO, rather than using their votes to buy themselves a tariff. This is nothing but a *really* stupid way to pander the union vote...

On the other issue, china's monetary policy is a double edged sword - they have to keep buying dollars and selling yuan/RMB to maintain the band, which undermines their thread to devaluate the USD. Another way to look at it is that their managed float is what's keeping USD afloat.

Finally, we do not have comparative advantage in unskilled labor, regardless of what china is doing with their currency. Floating the RMB won't bring labor-intensive manufacturing back to the US.

 

[BigDH01]

Originally posted by: halik

Because there are proper channels to have trade complains resolved by 3rd party and it doesn't lead to quid-pro-quo stupidity that we just saw. If the union reps truly thought they had a valid claim, they would've had USTR bitch at the WTO.
This is nothing but a *really* stupid way to pander the union vote.

This is not a new argument. American manufacturers have complained to the WTO before. link.

WTO:
American manufacturers contend China is blatantly manipulating its currency, keeping it undervalued by as much as 40 percent, to make Chinese goods cheaper for American consumers and U.S. products more expensive in China.

According to the WTO, "the move to a more flexible exchange rate could enable China to operate a more independent monetary policy and allow the market to play a greater role in determining interest rates and therefore in allocating resources."

Didn't do anything as you can see. And what exactly could the WTO do?

Although I may not agree with Obama's reasoning, I see no problem in enforcing tariffs against a country that's manipulating their currency to ensure the US (and now other powerful economic spheres) can never compete on a labor basis.

If this leads to them floating their currency and devaluing our's, so be it. We may pay more for exported goods, but we'll see some jobs come back and can hopefully fuel some domestic growth that isn't based purely on consumption.

On the other issue, china's monetary policy is a double edged sword - they have to keep buying dollars and selling yuan/RMB to keep the float up, which undermines their thread to evaluate the USD. Another way to look at it is that their managed float is what's keeping USD afloat.

Yes, the USD would be devalued. We could start exporting again. I just question why you would want the USD to be overvalued. Yes, this means that foreign-produced goods are relatively cheaper, but it also means that we lose the labor battle. A free floating RMB might hurt the US in the short term, but is probably necessary in the long term. The Chinese just want to wait until their middle-class is large enough they might be able to demand at least most of their own supply.

Also, you might say that another way of looking at it is that by fixing their currency to our dollar, the Chinese have levied a tariff upon all goods we export there.

 

[3chordcharlie]

The west, and most particularly the US has been in a trade war with China for decades.

The biggest trouble is we're losing and we don't know it.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
The west, and most particularly the US has been in a trade war with China for decades.

The biggest trouble is we're losing and we don't know it.

I agree 100%.


It isn't just China. Just ask folks that "know" about Mexico and see how much of a "local" tariff that they place on US goods down there (especially just across the border).

 

[dualsmp]

My Chinese lead belted radials were really cheap. How do they keep prices so low? :laugh:

 

[Argo]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
I for one, think this is a GOOD thing.

....

FUCK the world economy...I care about the American economy...and American workers.

Would you be ok paying more for all your products then?

 

[tgferg67]

Seems to be affecting the Japanese too.
I see the Japanese Falken brand tires are now made in Thailand instead of Japan.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Argo

Originally posted by: BoomerD
I for one, think this is a GOOD thing.

....

FUCK the world economy...I care about the American economy...and American workers.

Would you be ok paying more for all your products then?

I already do. I do my absolute best to NOT buy anything that sez "Made in China" on it.

Yes, I understand and grudgingly accept that there are some categories where I won't have any "non-Chinese" options, and I either grin & bear it, and buy the Chinese product...or do without it.

Sadly, corporate greed has already killed a lot of industries in the USA, and sending the jobs that employed thousands of US workers to places like Japan, then Hong Kong, then Taiwan, and now China and Vietnam, although some companies have located in Thailand and other "free but poorly regulated and poorly paid" countries.

if you're an American, you SHOULD support American workers. if you don't...don't come crying if your job is off-shored. Accounting/bookkeeping, architecture-related, finance, and many, many more jobs are being sent to India and China...yours could be next. (those with "hands-on" types of jobs, such as construction or nursing are safe(r) for now...but the corporations are always looking for cheaper labor...)

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: halik
This is by far the stupidest thing Obama has done as a president. In the best case scenario, it will get overturned at WTO and he traded off part of our 401ks for his political gain. In the worst case scenario (things get out of hand), we're fucked for the next 10 years.

There are proper channels to file such complaints (WTO), having USTR institute the tariffs is just screeming for a trade war.

I see you know nothing about how the Asians are when it comes to imports.

iirc, it was Clinton who threatened the Japanese in 1993 to allow Motorola to sell cellphones in Japan because of all their wild restrictions and excuses. These guys are more than happy to sing the praises of globalization when it comes to exports, but they sing a different tune when it comes to imports. They are very unfair.

 

[Argo]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Argo

Originally posted by: BoomerD
I for one, think this is a GOOD thing.

....

FUCK the world economy...I care about the American economy...and American workers.

Would you be ok paying more for all your products then?

I already do. I do my absolute best to NOT buy anything that sez "Made in China" on it.

Yes, I understand and grudgingly accept that there are some categories where I won't have any "non-Chinese" options, and I either grin & bear it, and buy the Chinese product...or do without it.

Sadly, corporate greed has already killed a lot of industries in the USA, and sending the jobs that employed thousands of US workers to places like Japan, then Hong Kong, then Taiwan, and now China and Vietnam, although some companies have located in Thailand and other "free but poorly regulated and poorly paid" countries.

if you're an American, you SHOULD support American workers. if you don't...don't come crying if your job is off-shored. Accounting/bookkeeping, architecture-related, finance, and many, many more jobs are being sent to India and China...yours could be next. (those with "hands-on" types of jobs, such as construction or nursing are safe(r) for now...but the corporations are always looking for cheaper labor...)

For the record - I could care less about world economy as well, I don't think we owe anything to other nations or that we should help them. That being said, I feel like free market should be given a chance to work. Money saved by consumers by buying cheaper products will be pumped into economy in some other way.

Maybe we should take a look at chinese tires and figure out *why* it is cheaper for them to produce tires in china and then ship them half way around the world, as opposed to producing them right here. If our tire companies are truly that bad then they should be given a chance to fail, much healthier companies will pop up in their place.

The other point somebody brought up about this being a retaliatory measure against chinese tariffs is tougher. If china is truly hurting us by imposing tariffs on US exports, then *this* might be a way to retaliate. But my understanding was that's what WTO was for.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Um, the only one you have to blame is Americans.

Americans wanted cheaper prices, the companies responded by sending the jobs over seas where it is cheaper.

Bullshit.

The only ones that wanted to send the jobs overseas is the execs that pocket the extra profits paying for slave wages.

Saying Americans wanted cheaper prices is quite Un-American.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Argo

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Argo

Originally posted by: BoomerD
I for one, think this is a GOOD thing.

....

FUCK the world economy...I care about the American economy...and American workers.

Would you be ok paying more for all your products then?

I already do. I do my absolute best to NOT buy anything that sez "Made in China" on it.

Yes, I understand and grudgingly accept that there are some categories where I won't have any "non-Chinese" options, and I either grin & bear it, and buy the Chinese product...or do without it.

Sadly, corporate greed has already killed a lot of industries in the USA, and sending the jobs that employed thousands of US workers to places like Japan, then Hong Kong, then Taiwan, and now China and Vietnam, although some companies have located in Thailand and other "free but poorly regulated and poorly paid" countries.

if you're an American, you SHOULD support American workers. if you don't...don't come crying if your job is off-shored. Accounting/bookkeeping, architecture-related, finance, and many, many more jobs are being sent to India and China...yours could be next. (those with "hands-on" types of jobs, such as construction or nursing are safe(r) for now...but the corporations are always looking for cheaper labor...)

For the record - I could care less about world economy as well, I don't think we owe anything to other nations or that we should help them. That being said, I feel like free market should be given a chance to work. Money saved by consumers by buying cheaper products will be pumped into economy in some other way.

Maybe we should take a look at chinese tires and figure out *why* it is cheaper for them to produce tires in china and then ship them half way around the world, as opposed to producing them right here. If our tire companies are truly that bad then they should be given a chance to fail, much healthier companies will pop up in their place.

The other point somebody brought up about this being a retaliatory measure against chinese tariffs is tougher. If china is truly hurting us by imposing tariffs on US exports, then *this* might be a way to retaliate. But my understanding was that's what WTO was for.

You really didn't ask that did you? My company pays Chinese workers between $0.08 and $0.15 per hour (US Dollars). The same production in the US costs over $15.00 hour (with benefits). Of course, I'm sure that those Chinese workers can afford quite a bit at that rate...the currencies are not even close to being equal.

Same goes to Mexico (to an extent). Mexicans get paid $0.85 to $1.00 per hour (Engineers actaully make $3.00 per hour) and their costs are not really so different than ours (they just get fucked).

Exploiting currency and low wages = win for the capital owners in the short term, but kick you in the nuts in the long term as your employees shift from making stuff to "welcome to Walmart, would you like a cart?".

 

[BladeVenom]

Originally posted by: dualsmp
My Chinese lead belted radials were really cheap. How do they keep prices so low? :laugh:

With the lead going into tires, what will they put in children's toys now?

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: BladeVenom

Originally posted by: dualsmp
My Chinese lead belted radials were really cheap. How do they keep prices so low? :laugh:

With the lead going into tires, what will they put in children's toys now?

I hear that they are going to recycle the poisonous gas from the drywall just for that purpose.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

I actually agree with this protectionist measure by Obama. China has been giving tax rebates on USA exports and imposing heavy tariffs on USA imports for years. We have to do this to even get somewhat close to having a level playing field.

China is the one creating an uneven playing field...I find it amusing that they are crying foul against us when they are doing the very same thing to us!

We need more protectionist measures...other countries around the world (like China and India) pay their workers pennies, work them to the bone, pollute like crazy and give generous benefits to their exporting businesses while imposing heavy tariffs on imports.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Argo

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Argo

Originally posted by: BoomerD
I for one, think this is a GOOD thing.

....

FUCK the world economy...I care about the American economy...and American workers.

Would you be ok paying more for all your products then?

I already do. I do my absolute best to NOT buy anything that sez "Made in China" on it.

Yes, I understand and grudgingly accept that there are some categories where I won't have any "non-Chinese" options, and I either grin & bear it, and buy the Chinese product...or do without it.

Sadly, corporate greed has already killed a lot of industries in the USA, and sending the jobs that employed thousands of US workers to places like Japan, then Hong Kong, then Taiwan, and now China and Vietnam, although some companies have located in Thailand and other "free but poorly regulated and poorly paid" countries.

if you're an American, you SHOULD support American workers. if you don't...don't come crying if your job is off-shored. Accounting/bookkeeping, architecture-related, finance, and many, many more jobs are being sent to India and China...yours could be next. (those with "hands-on" types of jobs, such as construction or nursing are safe(r) for now...but the corporations are always looking for cheaper labor...)

For the record - I could care less about world economy as well, I don't think we owe anything to other nations or that we should help them. That being said, I feel like free market should be given a chance to work. Money saved by consumers by buying cheaper products will be pumped into economy in some other way.

Maybe we should take a look at chinese tires and figure out *why* it is cheaper for them to produce tires in china and then ship them half way around the world, as opposed to producing them right here. If our tire companies are truly that bad then they should be given a chance to fail, much healthier companies will pop up in their place.

The other point somebody brought up about this being a retaliatory measure against chinese tariffs is tougher. If china is truly hurting us by imposing tariffs on US exports, then *this* might be a way to retaliate. But my understanding was that's what WTO was for.

You really didn't ask that did you? My company pays Chinese workers between $0.08 and $0.15 per hour (US Dollars). The same production in the US costs over $15.00 hour (with benefits). Of course, I'm sure that those Chinese workers can afford quite a bit at that rate...the currencies are not even close to being equal.

Same goes to Mexico (to an extent). Mexicans get paid $0.85 to $1.00 per hour (Engineers actaully make $3.00 per hour) and their costs are not really so different than ours (they just get fucked).

Exploiting currency and low wages = win for the capital owners in the short term, but kick you in the nuts in the long term as your employees shift from making stuff to "welcome to Walmart, would you like a cart.

In the long run, the labor adjusts to the marketplace. There's assistance and retraining available for workers displaced by free trade.

Text

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: halik
In the long run, the labor adjusts to the marketplace. There's assistance and retraining available for workers displaced by free trade.

Text

That's Ohio. KY only has money available to retraining if your job was lost to a NAFTA country. China not included (nor is Germany, which will be the country to most likely cause me to lose my job in a month or so and I thought about taking a few networking courses to see if I could bolster my automation background with IT).

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: BoomerD
I for one, think this is a GOOD thing.

EVERYTHING that comes from China, but used to be manufactured here, should be hit with VERY HIGH tarriffs.

Seems like the ones who benefit the least from "free trade," are the American workers whose jobs get sent to third-world nations.

FUCK the world economy...I care about the American economy...and American workers.

Oh boy, where to begin? :disgust:

It's just stupid to try to produce everything we consume. It's horribly inefficient. What you see as helping our economy would only hurt it, and badly.

What are the competitive advantages that China has over USA made goods?
We could hardly produce all that we consume in the USA.
The notion that what made the USA strong was its Manufacturing base is true in my thinking. What undermined that was a misguided notion that we could sustain building the world's market to the point where we'd have a world economic reality that would force peace and prosperity with in the scope of that reality. IT won't work in the short or medium term... Long term sure but can we as a nation wait while our citizens suffer today? I say let 'them' suffer short term and let 'them' be incentivised to act in accord with their long term gain...

That's true of the UK and almost every onther industrialised nation too, but most have given up on protectionism nowdays because it hurt more than it ever benefitted us.

In the end, all it did was raise the prices and devalue our currency.

The value of currency internationally is relevant only to the point of exchange. Dollar goes down we have cheaper export goods. Strong dollar more expensive export but cheaper import, etc. It is a mixed bag actually. So much stuff going in all directions at once makes tracking which would be better frustrating. We do it, of course, but lots of other factors stick their nose in.

IF we were totally Isolated we'd have the normal easy to control inflation but mostly low because our Federal and State Revenue inflows would far exceed our budgetary needs. (Full employment expectation)

Until WW2 the US was Isolationistic, but not completely. I recall when seeing 'Made in Japan' meant junk goods. Now Made by Ford means "Fix Or Repair Daily". I think we have to protect that which is subjected to unfair competition. I think we can produce in the free market better than anyone. We are not in a level game. Part of the cost of production is labor. In order to compete under current standards we have to reduce our costs or use better technology. It is almost like the technology is universal while labor cost is not. We have raw material advantage but give that or sell to the folks we'd compete with.

I recall visiting a plant there in Skelmersdale. Those folks could put out a product as well as any of the options I was looking at. We had plants in Skelmersdale (up in Lancashire), Liege, Bordeaux, Cork and San Diego. Had to get rid of two or increase capacity in Cork and dump the other four. The Board opted to build a large facility in Cork and eliminate the other four. Made sense $ wise in the near term but when the landed cost was the same from San Diego to anywhere why expand Cork. Well, short term thinking. IDA grants, tax holidays and like that. Long term thinking over a 10 yrs vista said San Diego. What happened was the wage advantage changed coupled with the translation/transaction rate of the punt v dollar etc turned Cork into a short term B/E and a long term loss.

I know exactly what you are saying, the time when a Samsung was seen as utter junk or a Toyota was a crappy car, problem was that they were not junk and neither are Chinese tires... But this will end well for the EU, we'll pick up the slack and replace your exports along the way because that is how free trade works.

Then what? Are you going to play it like the USSR did and devalue your dollar to the point that it's close to useless to get back in the game again? There is a reason for the boom in the US and the downfall of the USSR economy, the US stopped being isolationists and the USSR ranked up their isolationism.

I actually meant devaluation, sorry for the confusion. (but with devaluation comes inflation)

In all honesty, American cars have never been better than they are today, some of them compete on a level playing field with both Asia and Europe. Old american cars were built like sheit, sure, an old 286 is hella easy to fix, no fancy schmansy stuff, most shops would just solder on a new circuit when one had broken... But times have change and 3 ton rustheaps with the safety less than a modern day small Renault doesn't cut it anymore.

 

[Genx87]

Sadly, corporate greed has already killed a lot of industries in the USA, and sending the jobs that employed thousands of US workers to places like Japan, then Hong Kong, then Taiwan, and now China and Vietnam, although some companies have located in Thailand and other "free but poorly regulated and poorly paid" countries.

Why is it corporate greed? Why isnt it finding an efficiency in the market?