Obama To put Terrif on Chinese tires

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Sadly, corporate greed has already killed a lot of industries in the USA, and sending the jobs that employed thousands of US workers to places like Japan, then Hong Kong, then Taiwan, and now China and Vietnam, although some companies have located in Thailand and other "free but poorly regulated and poorly paid" countries.

Why is it corporate greed? Why isnt it finding an efficiency in the market?

LOL. Efficient = cheap = more profit for the capital holders (short term until it all blows up on them from offshoring enough of the jobs).

The word efficient should be banned when on this subject..it's all about cheap labor, period. The US worker is far more efficient at producing things than anyone else...but they cost more.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Sadly, corporate greed has already killed a lot of industries in the USA, and sending the jobs that employed thousands of US workers to places like Japan, then Hong Kong, then Taiwan, and now China and Vietnam, although some companies have located in Thailand and other "free but poorly regulated and poorly paid" countries.

Why is it corporate greed? Why isnt it finding an efficiency in the market?

It is, just on the world market which every nation in the world has to deal with today.

 

[Genx87]

Maybe we should take a look at chinese tires and figure out *why* it is cheaper for them to produce tires in china and then ship them half way around the world, as opposed to producing them right here. If our tire companies are truly that bad then they should be given a chance to fail, much healthier companies will pop up in their place.

I'd guess like any other manufacturing industry that has moved out of the United States in the past 40 years.

A combination of envionmental requirements and cost of labor. There is only so much a company can do with govt regulation forcing their hand to compete. At some point they simply cant and have to join the rest and flee.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Maybe we should take a look at chinese tires and figure out *why* it is cheaper for them to produce tires in china and then ship them half way around the world, as opposed to producing them right here. If our tire companies are truly that bad then they should be given a chance to fail, much healthier companies will pop up in their place.

I'd guess like any other manufacturing industry that has moved out of the United States in the past 40 years.

A combination of envionmental requirements and cost of labor. There is only so much a company can do with govt regulation forcing their hand to compete. At some point they simply cant and have to join the rest and flee.

Hard to compete with $0.08 to $0.15 per hour labor, even if you have to ship it halfway around the world.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Genx87

Sadly, corporate greed has already killed a lot of industries in the USA, and sending the jobs that employed thousands of US workers to places like Japan, then Hong Kong, then Taiwan, and now China and Vietnam, although some companies have located in Thailand and other "free but poorly regulated and poorly paid" countries.

Why is it corporate greed? Why isnt it finding an efficiency in the market?

LOL. Efficient = cheap = more profit for the capital holders (short term until it all blows up on them from offshoring enough of the jobs).

The word efficient should be banned when on this subject..it's all about cheap labor, period. The US worker is far more efficient at producing things than anyone else...but they cost more.

Cheap labor is an efficiency. If you can make the same product with a labor force that costs half as much. Your costs of goods sold went down, profit went up, and you are able to deliver the same product for less to the consumer.

This process has been going on since private markets have existed in this world.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Genx87

Sadly, corporate greed has already killed a lot of industries in the USA, and sending the jobs that employed thousands of US workers to places like Japan, then Hong Kong, then Taiwan, and now China and Vietnam, although some companies have located in Thailand and other "free but poorly regulated and poorly paid" countries.

Why is it corporate greed? Why isnt it finding an efficiency in the market?

LOL. Efficient = cheap = more profit for the capital holders (short term until it all blows up on them from offshoring enough of the jobs).

The word efficient should be banned when on this subject..it's all about cheap labor, period. The US worker is far more efficient at producing things than anyone else...but they cost more.

Cheap labor is an efficiency. If you can make the same product with a labor force that costs half as much. Your costs of goods sold went down, profit went up, and you are able to deliver the same product for less to the consumer.

This process has been going on since private markets have existed in this world.

And the employees that were offshored have now ZERO wages for some time and many go down in wages as they work in Walmart and the likes. As for lowering costs, I doubt that. I've not seen anything that has been offshored yet that has been lowered in price, simply profits raised (looking from within my own company) but there could be a slower rise in prices (but doubtful a drop).

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Genx87

Maybe we should take a look at chinese tires and figure out *why* it is cheaper for them to produce tires in china and then ship them half way around the world, as opposed to producing them right here. If our tire companies are truly that bad then they should be given a chance to fail, much healthier companies will pop up in their place.

I'd guess like any other manufacturing industry that has moved out of the United States in the past 40 years.

A combination of envionmental requirements and cost of labor. There is only so much a company can do with govt regulation forcing their hand to compete. At some point they simply cant and have to join the rest and flee.

Hard to compete with $0.08 to $0.15 per hour labor, even if you have to ship it halfway around the world.

Of course it is. So what is your proposition? Build a wall around our country?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Engineer

And the employees that were offshored have now ZERO wages for some time and many go down in wages as they work in Walmart and the likes. As for lowering costs, I doubt that. I've not seen anything that has been offshored yet that has been lowered in price, simply profits raised (looking from within my own company) but there could be a slower rise in prices (but doubtful a drop).

Oh please really? Is that why our median wage continues to increase? They find other, often less labor intensive work that pays better. If everybody went to walmart as you claim. I would find it hard to believe any company could sell anything in this country as everbody would make 12 bucks an hour.

If you dont believe offshoring lowers the price of products. All you have to do is look at what walmarts, targets, and other large consumer retail outlets have managed to do with everything from clothing to electronics. I have a lot more buying power today in a store like Target or Walmart than I did back in 1980.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Engineer

And the employees that were offshored have now ZERO wages for some time and many go down in wages as they work in Walmart and the likes. As for lowering costs, I doubt that. I've not seen anything that has been offshored yet that has been lowered in price, simply profits raised (looking from within my own company) but there could be a slower rise in prices (but doubtful a drop).

Oh please really? Is that why our median wage continues to increase? They find other, often less labor intensive work that pays better. If everybody went to walmart as you claim. I would find it hard to believe any company could sell anything in this country as everbody would make 12 bucks an hour.

If you dont believe offshoring lowers the price of products. All you have to do is look at what walmarts, targets, and other large consumer retail outlets have managed to do with everything from clothing to electronics. I have a lot more buying power today in a store like Target or Walmart than I did back in 1980.

The quality of the stuff you're buying is much lower too. Of course you could just throw it away and buy two of them.

Look at the last 10 years with the explosion of offshoring and tell me that the average wage has risen after inflation in this country? Walmart has become the US largest employer with over 1% of the jobs. One company = 1% of the jobs when there are millions of companies out there? We're becoming a nation of sellers...selling back and forth and it will work as long as the rest of the world will take the printed paper for plastic. After that, all bets are off.

Click me.

Table goes to 2007...but anyone should be able to guess what the outcome to real wages has occurred in the last two years.

Ross Perot was right...that giant sucking sound = deflating USA.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Engineer

And the employees that were offshored have now ZERO wages for some time and many go down in wages as they work in Walmart and the likes. As for lowering costs, I doubt that. I've not seen anything that has been offshored yet that has been lowered in price, simply profits raised (looking from within my own company) but there could be a slower rise in prices (but doubtful a drop).

Oh please really? Is that why our median wage continues to increase? They find other, often less labor intensive work that pays better. If everybody went to walmart as you claim. I would find it hard to believe any company could sell anything in this country as everbody would make 12 bucks an hour.

If you dont believe offshoring lowers the price of products. All you have to do is look at what walmarts, targets, and other large consumer retail outlets have managed to do with everything from clothing to electronics. I have a lot more buying power today in a store like Target or Walmart than I did back in 1980.

The quality of the stuff you're buying is much lower too. Of course you could just throw it away and buy two of them.

Look at the last 10 years with the explosion of offshoring and tell me that the average wage has risen after inflation in this country? Walmart has become the US largest employer with over 1% of the jobs. One company = 1% of the jobs when there are millions of companies out there? We're becoming a nation of sellers...selling back and forth and it will work as long as the rest of the world will take the printed paper for plastic. After that, all bets are off.

Click me.

I agree. How many times this year alone have Chinese made food, toys, drywall, batteries, etc. been recalled because of hazardous safety and quality concerns?

Sure, things nowadays are monetarily cheaper, but at what cost?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Engineer

And the employees that were offshored have now ZERO wages for some time and many go down in wages as they work in Walmart and the likes. As for lowering costs, I doubt that. I've not seen anything that has been offshored yet that has been lowered in price, simply profits raised (looking from within my own company) but there could be a slower rise in prices (but doubtful a drop).

Oh please really? Is that why our median wage continues to increase? They find other, often less labor intensive work that pays better. If everybody went to walmart as you claim. I would find it hard to believe any company could sell anything in this country as everbody would make 12 bucks an hour.

If you dont believe offshoring lowers the price of products. All you have to do is look at what walmarts, targets, and other large consumer retail outlets have managed to do with everything from clothing to electronics. I have a lot more buying power today in a store like Target or Walmart than I did back in 1980.

The quality of the stuff you're buying is much lower too. Of course you could just throw it away and buy two of them.

Look at the last 10 years with the explosion of offshoring and tell me that the average wage has risen after inflation in this country? Walmart has become the US largest employer with over 1% of the jobs. One company = 1% of the jobs when there are millions of companies out there? We're becoming a nation of sellers...selling back and forth and it will work as long as the rest of the world will take the printed paper for plastic. After that, all bets are off.

Click me.

Table goes to 2007...but anyone should be able to guess what the outcome to real wages has occurred in the last two years.

Ross Perot was right...that giant sucking sound = deflating USA.

The quality issue is debateable. US car manufacturuers didnt get a bum rap because they made quality vehicles that didnt break down.

I dont understand how you expect the majority of wage earners to outpace inflation. It would create a bubble which is partially backed by your numbers. It looks to me like we are still feeling the hangover from the 1990s boom on wages.

That said wage stagflation is also tied to increased medical insurance costs. Companies are passing that increased cost through as part of your compensation. Instead of a paycheck you are seeing it as insurance.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Genx87


The quality issue is debateable. US car manufacturuers didnt get a bum rap because they made quality vehicles that didnt break down.

I dont understand how you expect the majority of wage earners to outpace inflation. It would create a bubble which is partially backed by your numbers. It looks to me like we are still feeling the hangover from the 1990s boom on wages.

That said wage stagflation is also tied to increased medical insurance costs. Companies are passing that increased cost through as part of your compensation. Instead of a paycheck you are seeing it as insurance.

The best built cars in the world are built right here...domestic or non-domestic supplier ... by good ole American labor. Nothing from the Chinese or Indian markets yet so not much of an argument.

As for insurance, my wages are flat (actually down 5% over the last 2 years NOT counting inflation) and my insurance costs are up and benefits are down. That's progress for you.

As for bubbles, you could be right....but all that we have had for the last 10 - 15 years are bubbles including the possible government bubble. Creating something of value (i.e. making stuff) is how you get out of this permanently, not sending it all out and then using various bubbles (and credit, etc) to stay afloat and drift along.

With that, I guess we can agree to disagree because as far as I'm concerned, nothing good can come of the so called free trade until certain issues are taken care of (currency being one of them). Free trade is completely one sided right now and we're on the downstream side of getting fucked (instead of the one doing the fucking). FAIR trade is what is needed, not the so called FREE trade that we have now.

 

[Genx87]

Well I will agree with you nothing out of China in the car industry is worth looking at. But Japan and Korea have been building quality vehicles for decades. Even when they werent doing it here. My point is there are anecdotal evidence to show poor quality. But I bet that poor quality for that product was present before the factory that made it was shipped overseas or to Mexico.

My wages have been able to keep up with inflation. But my compensation on the back end with health insurance is going up by high single digits per year. I think it is hard to pin any kind of wage stagflation purely on offshoring.

And I agree with you about creating real welath, not a bubble. But I am of the belief human brain power in the service industry can create just as much real wealth as the guy making widgets on a factory line.

btw I am not agreeing or disagreeing with Obama's decision. I dont know all of the details of what is going on. I am only responding that all offshoring or trade is bad for the United States. I have had the belief if a country is manipulating the market it is the duty of our govt to impose sanctions to protect our markets. For instance China subsidizes many items so their companies can compete or undercut ours. Slap a tarrif on them to level the playing field.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Well I will agree with you nothing out of China in the car industry is worth looking at. But Japan and Korea have been building quality vehicles for decades. Even when they werent doing it here. My point is there are anecdotal evidence to show poor quality. But I bet that poor quality for that product was present before the factory that made it was shipped overseas or to Mexico.

My wages have been able to keep up with inflation. But my compensation on the back end with health insurance is going up by high single digits per year. I think it is hard to pin any kind of wage stagflation purely on offshoring.

And I agree with you about creating real welath, not a bubble. But I am of the belief human brain power in the service industry can create just as much real wealth as the guy making widgets on a factory line.

Human brain power isn't an idea that the US has a lock on. China, India and other countries have larger numbers of people who seem to be more dedicated than the average US citizen in the brain department...and like their manufacturing counterparts, they are willing and able to work for a much lower wage than those in the US.

As for your comment on quality before and after Mexico, again, all I can offer is my own viewing from within my own company...and it's not even close (although it does seem to be getting "better" as we add more crap to the machinery to look for defects, lol).