Obamacare, are you too stupid to get it?

[Ldir]

Because this is AMERICA. Here in AMERICA one is free to start a business and make a better life for yourself even if that business is insurance. Going against this is going against everything America stands for and why this president and this law are so hated.

You are free to start a business. You are not entitled to have your business succeed. You are not entitled to have your business last forever. For-profit health insurance companies are dinosaurs in the modern world. They can adapt to offering supplemental insurance or they can die.

 

[spidey07]

You are free to start a business. You are not entitled to have your business succeed. You are not entitled to have your business last forever. For-profit health insurance companies are dinosaurs in the modern world. They can adapt to offering supplemental insurance or they can die.

And your wish is to have government enforce their demise because you don't agree with it. That's very American of you, NOT. In fact it's the exact opposite of America and why were were founded.

 

[dca221]

Meanwhile, back in the real world, the health care system here works just fine for me and everyone else I know.

It sounds like you have been fortunate and lucky, that nobody around you has suffered at the hands of the insurance companies.

In my real world, I haven't been as fortunate as you, and your words come across really callous. Here is my personal story, although it didn't affect me directly, but my father in-law.

My father in-law lost his job at the age of 59 (his law-firm lost a major account, and the partners eventually shut down his office). He was an honest decent hardworking man who had done everything right all his life. But at the ripe age of 59, he found himself without a job, with little prospect of getting another one. He stayed on COBRA as long as he could. Meanwhile, he was diagnosed with a terminal illness which required very very expensive medication and treatment, to extend his life as long as possible, or simply comfort him as he approached the end. He tried to take on two different jobs and get insurance coverage, only to lose them after a short while, as his illness took both a physical and mental toll. In the open market, no insurance company would touch him with a ten-foot pole to sell him individual coverage-- why would they? He and my mother-in-law faced the prospect of losing their life savings while doing everything they can for a few more good months.

Eventually, he qualified for Medicaid or Medicare (I don't know for sure which one) due to some disability coverage. Through this "evil socialistic communist" government program that stands against "everything that's American" and must be "done away with to save our country from bankruptcy", he was able to get his medication and treatment.

Sadly, he passed away last year after suffering with his illness for five years. Fortunately, Medicare or Medicaid came to his help and extended his life, and he got to see his first grandchild grow up for a few years. And his wife still has some of their life savings preserved to live a decent life, without depending on others charity.

Like you, I am fortunate. I am an executive at an "evil corporation", where I think about how to make even more money for my company. I make a lot of money that puts me in the top 1% of the country, as Turbo Tax tells me. My company provides me with great insurance, with very low deductibles and practically non-existent copays. As a result, I have enjoyed the best care this country can offer -- probably the best in the world! When my daughter was born, we checked my wife into one of the top-10 hospitals in the country, and all we paid was $150 for the entire labor, delivery, and nursery care!

I love what I have. I don't want that to go away. But I also understand others are less fortunate, through no fault of their own, back in the real world you seem not to live in. I want every human being to have access to decent, if not great, care without worrying about bankruptcy.

I don't know if that's UnAmerican. I thought it was compassionate citizenship

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I want every human being to have access to decent, if not great, care without worrying about bankruptcy.

I do too, but I think there are better ways to approach it.

 

[zinfamous]

Both parties are guilty of twisting the words of the Constitution to fit their respective agendas, and it needs to stop now.

:thumbsup: true dat.

the funny thing, is that we have had versions of every conceivable World healthcare model in this country for DECADES.

to say that France is commie, or that the UK is absurd, or that Japan is fucked is hilarious, b/c we have plenty of identical models here, and we've had them for quite some time, all with varying degrees of success. We are huge, we have vastly different needs depending on where you are and who you are.

I've always thought that one overriding system simply will not work here, but finding a way to improve on what we do have--especially making it more efficient--electronic records, eliminate unnecessary tests, improve the doctor-patient appointment through better training (more time talking from the patient, more time listening from the physician is HUGE when it comes to diagnosis)--a pile of absolutely broken practices that amount to huge costs.

All of these things, while not simple and not immediately fixable, could drastically curb costs. free up money that could provide for more people.

 

[Ldir]

And your wish is to have government enforce their demise because you don't agree with it. That's very American of you, NOT. In fact it's the exact opposite of America and why were were founded.

You trying to protect a failed business model is the opposite of what America is about. American healthcare has fallen behind the rest of the first world. Health insurance companies make this worse. We have the right to demand better.

 

[Fandango21]

I do too, but I think there are better ways to approach it.

What are the better ways?

 

[zinfamous]

And your wish is to have government enforce their demise because you don't agree with it. That's very American of you, NOT. In fact it's the exact opposite of America and why were were founded.

No, your wish is to allow them to continue being protected as the "only proper model for this system."

That is certainly not America. It is anti-competition.

Dr. Melfi in the Sopranos said it best: "It is the pursuit that is protected; not the happiness."

 

[Exterous]

Oh, I didn't mean that ATPN would drive change, just that this forum is a good example of the kinds of thinking that dominate the debate. I mean look at the responses so far, we have 'OBAMACARE HATES AMERICA' from the resident schizophrenic, Spidey, and Whozyerdaddy with: 'it works great for my friends!'.

While they may dominate the public debate and, if repeated enough/properly manipulated, may effect change I am willing to bet there was far more influence exerted on the bill by corporations/special interest groups. This goes back to your original "Then they ask me how in the hell America wouldn't have changed our system to a more sensible policy like theirs a long time ago; I should point them to places like this I guess."

With so much pushing/pulling we ended up with a bill that did little to fix the health care issue (and all of this was done before the bill was released to the public)

 

[IndyColtsFan]

What are the better ways?

I don't have all the answers, nor am I paid to sit around and study the issue in depth all the time. It seems to me, however, that when the majority of people in this country agree that their health care is good to excellent (last I saw, 70% or so fall into this category, though that may have changed recently and I don't have time at the moment to search), you don't pass a new law which could negatively impact their health care.

I have a meeting to run to, so unfortunately, no time to jot down more thoughts at the moment.

 

[wirelessenabled]

The insurance companies don't need this as an excuse to raise premiumsD:

For my company premiums have been raised 21%, 33%, and 24% over the last 3 years. We have had very few claims and all of them small.

We need a national health care system like all the modern countries in the World. This bullshit employer paid, non-portable system is costly and not sustainable.

After the last 3 years of huge increases I am getting close to pulling the plug on healthcare insurance for my 30 employees even though I believe in it. After 35 years of paying premiums it is a sad state of affairs for me, but the healthcare system has no bounds on its greed or stupidity.

We fund quadruple bypass operations for 80+ year olds but can't seem to pay for baby vaccinations or pre-natal care. Why?? Because the old folks are the ones with health care insurance. Many of the rest/young are stuck with going to the emergency room for routine care.

Sad result for the US. We pay 1-1/2 - 2 times as much for health care, per GDP/capita, as the next most expensive. Our results are worse, lower life expectancy, many bankruptcies, and generally a lower standard of health.

You go Tea Party and helpers (ahem .. Rebubs) ... if you work hard you can make the US a 3rd World country in one generation.

I don't want my premiums and cost of healthcare to rise so much because of Obamacare requirements of insurers. All this law does is raise premiums and healthcare costs.

You cannot mandate insurance companies increase all this coverage, preventative care for "free", 26 year old "kids" on parents insurance without premiums being raised. That's common sense. This law is ass backwards in what it was sold for.

 

[chucky2]

Well, to be fair, we have a terrible diet and exercise mentality in the US. Comparing our life expectancy to other countries who don't eat McD's and White Castle 5x a week while never getting off the couch for decades straight, really isn't fair.

 

[shira]

So it's only because you don't understand obamacare that you don't like it, right? We've heard this message for over a year now. That The People are just too stupid to understand all the complexities of this monstrosity and Obama just needs to do a better job of explaining the message and how great it is.

Well have no fear stupid Americans! You can now have a comic book describing how great dear leader's law is!

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1315137&format=comments#CommentsArea

Ohh noes. Obamacare is COMPLICATED! But real Americans only want simple. Simple = good. Complicated = bad. Spidey no like complicated; complicated make Spidey head hurt. Poor Spidey!

 

[werepossum]

I agree that the issue is not a simple one. I do not regret my time as an opera singer. I provided for my family and lived my dream for more than a decade. The plight of most musicians is very similar to a very small business as we have seen by the huge increases in premiums if you purchase in the open market and not via employer....


I did have to end up changing up my career to take care of my family. The funny thing is I was making about the same as I make now from my day job as I did a a performer....



Ask most of your friends if career and job decisions hinge more on insurance than fulfillment/happiness...

There's a big difference between saying "I want to make job decisions based on fulfillment and happiness", and saying "I want to use the armed might of government to force other people to provide my health insurance so that I can make job decisions based on fulfillment and happiness without adverse consequences." Health insurance provided by your employer is part of your compensation, regardless of whether or not you receive it in your check. Personally I have no problem with people being opera singers or performance artists or pet psychics or numerous other things for which I care naught, AS LONG AS I'M NOT ASKED TO SUBSIDIZE THEM.

<sigh>

Ignoring the reality of increasing health care costs for a moment, you guys can tout the European health care systems all you want. You can use Canada as an example. You can use Cuba as an example. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter because guess what? The US is not a European nation. It is not Canada, nor is it Cuba. We're governed (at least in theory) by the framework established by the US Constitution. If you want a national health care system, PUT IT IN A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT. Twisting the words of the Constitution to support an agenda is bullshit and both parties are guilty of it to the max.

"But...but...we have the right to tax! Yeah, that's it! We can have a national healthcare system because the Constitution gives us the ability to levy a tax and after all, it is just another tax! What? That isn't good enough? Well, uh, there's......GENERAL WELFARE! Yeah, that's the ticket."

Very well said indeed. A Constitution that says anything we wish at the moment is a Constitution that says nothing and protects nothing.

 

[Throckmorton]

It sounds like you have been fortunate and lucky, that nobody around you has suffered at the hands of the insurance companies.

In my real world, I haven't been as fortunate as you, and your words come across really callous. Here is my personal story, although it didn't affect me directly, but my father in-law.

My father in-law lost his job at the age of 59 (his law-firm lost a major account, and the partners eventually shut down his office). He was an honest decent hardworking man who had done everything right all his life. But at the ripe age of 59, he found himself without a job, with little prospect of getting another one. He stayed on COBRA as long as he could. Meanwhile, he was diagnosed with a terminal illness which required very very expensive medication and treatment, to extend his life as long as possible, or simply comfort him as he approached the end. He tried to take on two different jobs and get insurance coverage, only to lose them after a short while, as his illness took both a physical and mental toll. In the open market, no insurance company would touch him with a ten-foot pole to sell him individual coverage-- why would they? He and my mother-in-law faced the prospect of losing their life savings while doing everything they can for a few more good months.

Eventually, he qualified for Medicaid or Medicare (I don't know for sure which one) due to some disability coverage. Through this "evil socialistic communist" government program that stands against "everything that's American" and must be "done away with to save our country from bankruptcy", he was able to get his medication and treatment.

Sadly, he passed away last year after suffering with his illness for five years. Fortunately, Medicare or Medicaid came to his help and extended his life, and he got to see his first grandchild grow up for a few years. And his wife still has some of their life savings preserved to live a decent life, without depending on others charity.

Like you, I am fortunate. I am an executive at an "evil corporation", where I think about how to make even more money for my company. I make a lot of money that puts me in the top 1% of the country, as Turbo Tax tells me. My company provides me with great insurance, with very low deductibles and practically non-existent copays. As a result, I have enjoyed the best care this country can offer -- probably the best in the world! When my daughter was born, we checked my wife into one of the top-10 hospitals in the country, and all we paid was $150 for the entire labor, delivery, and nursery care!

I love what I have. I don't want that to go away. But I also understand others are less fortunate, through no fault of their own, back in the real world you seem not to live in. I want every human being to have access to decent, if not great, care without worrying about bankruptcy.

I don't know if that's UnAmerican. I thought it was compassionate citizenship

Sorry to hear about your father. This is exactly what is wrong with the ridiculous health insurance system we have as a result of an accident of history.

 

[manimal]

AS LONG AS I'M NOT ASKED TO SUBSIDIZE THEM.
.

BTW your arguments largest hole is that you already subsidize the uninsured. Guess what happens when someone who has no insurance goes to the emergency room?


Hint:



everyone ends up paying it.......


secondly I never asked anyone to subsidize anything for me. My wife was refused insurance on the open market. I could afford any insurance that is sold in the state of indiana...we were unable to buy any.....


Lastly your offhand shot at musicians and and "pet psychics" just proves your ignorance...

 

[Cerb]

even though big business is against it im surprised there isnt massive support for obamacare. it gives insurance to a lot of people that dont/wont have it. also it tries to protect people from bankruptcy and loss of insurance as a result of a major illness. have you ever known someone who got a major illness? insurance companies immediately drop that persons coverage

The problem is much like the bailouts: focusing on fixing superficial symptoms, not fundamental problems (like costing far more per person than many other systems in the world, while not having great outcomes). People do not have to fully understand the complexities to realize that trying to truly fix something is better, even if it means taking some lumps in the short term. Instead, we're taking short-term pain that is sure to lead to long-term failure. Yay.

He's probably right. Most Americans don't understand the simple Constitution which is like 9 pages not over 2000.

Neither do most members of SCOTUS, it seems; and it should be a professional requirement for them.

Ask anyone you know with a preexisting condition how they feel about the health care law

It has very little effect, none of it good. If I can't make significantly greater than average wages, I couldn't afford even catastrophic. Now, the same is true, but the premiums are going up even more, putting even catastrophic out of reach. And, it will create a tax penalty that is rather significant.

 

[fskimospy]

Well, to be fair, we have a terrible diet and exercise mentality in the US. Comparing our life expectancy to other countries who don't eat McD's and White Castle 5x a week while never getting off the couch for decades straight, really isn't fair.

OECD comparisons of health systems don't focus on life expectancy because it is influenced by lots of factors other than the health care system. That's why they focus on 5 year survival rates for cancers, heart attack survival rates, etc, because people's survival is often highly connected to the system.

In these areas our system continues to cost much, much more than socialized health systems the world over without providing commensurate benefits.

 

[chucky2]

How do they take into account a man who's 300 lbs. because they haven't exercised for 50 years and have eaten like shit, and had a heart attack in the US, vs. a 170 lb man in say the UK who eats healthy and exercises and has a heart attack? How do they true that up? I'm honestly curious to know...

 

[fskimospy]

How do they take into account a man who's 300 lbs. because they haven't exercised for 50 years and have eaten like shit, and had a heart attack in the US, vs. a 170 lb man in say the UK who eats healthy and exercises and has a heart attack? How do they true that up? I'm honestly curious to know...

They separate the two into different sections and weight them. (har) For a look as to what they take into account, check their website: http://www.oecd.org/document/33/0,3746,en_2649_33929_34973665_1_1_1_1,00.html

Tons of information there, everything you could want to know about how they put their analyses together.

 

[evident]

Actually my wife who was between jobs on cobra coverage had a car accident. She exhausted her coverage since she was freelancing at the time and we had over 130K in medical bills above and beyond what her insurance payed. The person that hit her had shit coverage as well and that went fast...She was uninsurable on the open market and was turned down by every single carrier in the state of Indiana. I was forced to get a job with benefits since I was a freelance opera singer at the time and had to buy insurance on the open market..

Guess what happens when we finally get coverage a year later from my new job? Yup all treatment for her prexisting condition we had to pay out of pocket......

Is the health care bill perfect? Not even close....removing it would be worse....how about we fix it together?

according to spidey and his ilk, your wife is a fuck up and got what she deserved. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

 

[senseamp]

 

[yllus]

If a model of healthcare is clearly superior (as demonstrated as working by other nations), why does it matter if the U.S. Constitution says it's allowed or not? The goal should be to implement the system that works best, not to implement whatever's best that also is allowable by a 200+ year old piece of paper. Update what needs updating and get with the times.

 

[ericlp]

I'm still looking for the "YOU ARE HERE" thingy....

 

[werepossum]

I'm still looking for the "YOU ARE HERE" thingy....

LMAO!