Oblivion Benches: Why the disparity between GTX512 and 7900GTX?

[imported_Crusader]

Theres quite a large jump in SLI performance @1280x1024 from the GTX512 to 7900GTX.. it was always my assumption the 7900GTX was primarily the easier-to-produce, higher profit version of the GTX512..
it makes me happy considering I have a GTX on the way though.

but the gap is much larger than I expected considering the differences between the cards.
7900GTX 43fps
7800GTX512 34fps
It was also interesting to see the X1900XT beat the XTX..

I think I'll probably just buy the highest G80 next time as well, unless I win the lottery or come across a very cheap 2nd card (not going to happen at current prices).

 

[5150Joker]

And why did you need to make a new thread about this?

 

[deadseasquirrel]

Originally posted by: Crusader
As an aside, as more time goes by I become more disillusioned with SLI/Xfire.. twice the price for 25-50% improvement in performance?
Twice the price and getting a maximum of 50% boost is not my idea of a good time

Not all games do well in Crossfire/SLI solutions. Some do. Doom3, Quake4, and Splinter Cell Chaos Theory all get 85+% increases. And that's at 1600x1200 4xAA 8xAF.

As for Anandtech's benches, I'm not to thrilled with them. IMO, Firing Squad did a better job. This page shows a 7900GTX getting 20fps at 1600x1200 0xAA 8xAF in the Foliage w/ HDR. This page shows the SLI GTX getting 39fps with the exact same settings. Just about 100% improvement. Crossfire results were all 60+% improvement as well. But, yes, you could still make the argument that 100% extra cost should result in 100% extra performance, but that is just not gonna happen across the board. However, dropping another $400 on a 2nd video card that gives ~80% improvement seems a lot smarter than dropping another $400 on a faster CPU that gives 0% improvement.

 

[imported_Crusader]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
And why did you need to make a new thread about this?

Because I can make any post I want that stays within Anandtechs rules.
Oh and you are an absolute nobody who has no authority over me 5150. Just so we have that clear kid?

See ya when you actually have the knowledge to answer a question with an actual verifiable answer. Later little troll.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Crusader

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
And why did you need to make a new thread about this?

Because I can make any post I want that stays within Anandtechs rules.
Oh and you are an absolute nobody who has no authority over me 5150. Just so we have that clear kid?

See ya when you actually have the knowledge to answer a question with an actual verifiable answer. Later little troll.

All you're doing is spamming the forums with your jibberish.


P.S. there's already an Oblivion thread.

 

[peleejosh]

Originally posted by: Crusader

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
And why did you need to make a new thread about this?

Because I can make any post I want that stays within Anandtechs rules.
Oh and you are an absolute nobody who has no authority over me 5150. Just so we have that clear kid?

See ya when you actually have the knowledge to answer a question with an actual verifiable answer. Later little troll.

wow!
C'mon Joker, this is a valid issue. Don't post if it isn't going to be helpful to the discussion.

 

[imported_Crusader]

Originally posted by: deadseasquirrel

Originally posted by: Crusader
As an aside, as more time goes by I become more disillusioned with SLI/Xfire.. twice the price for 25-50% improvement in performance?
Twice the price and getting a maximum of 50% boost is not my idea of a good time

Not all games do well in Crossfire/SLI solutions. Some do. Doom3, Quake4, and Splinter Cell Chaos Theory all get 85+% increases. And that's at 1600x1200 4xAA 8xAF.

As for Anandtech's benches, I'm not to thrilled with them. IMO, Firing Squad did a better job. This page shows a 7900GTX getting 20fps at 1600x1200 0xAA 8xAF in the Foliage w/ HDR. http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/oblivion_high-end_performance/page11.asp">This page</a> shows the SLI GTX getting 39fps with the exact same settings. Just about 100% improvement. Crossfire results were all 60+% improvement as well. But, yes, you could still make the argument that 100% extra cost should result in 100% extra performance, but that is just not gonna happen across the board. However, dropping another $400 on a 2nd video card that gives ~80% improvement seems a lot smarter than dropping another $400 on a faster CPU that gives 0% improvement.

I personally think I'm sticking with the fastest single GPU I can get and get 100% efficiency out of all my games with it.
As far as CPU, it appears the sweet spot is the 3800+ (single core or dual 2.4ghz).. anything above that is prob a waste in the majority of cases.



I agree with you on the CPU vs SLI and thats a very good point.. if stuck between going beyond a 2.4ghz A64 (single or dual) or buying a 2nd card.. SLI/Xfire is a much better decision.
I probably was a bit hard on dual card setups in my OP. I think you are right and if I had extra cash to blow on an upgrade, a 2nd 7900GTX would prob be my best gain for the dollar.. even if the effiency doenst typically go beyond 80% in SLI.

Though the Unreal Engine 3.0 is supposed to result with 100% gains, at least on the Nvidia side of the dual card scene. It will be interesting to see if its an engine optimization that affect Crossfire as well or since its a TWIMTBP endeavor if UE3 only exhibits this behavior on SLI.

Being an Nvidia user since the post 9800 days, I'm for one glad NV is hooked into the id engines (I absolutely love Doom and Quake) and Unreal engines.

 

[imported_Crusader]

I am assuming no one can answer this question?

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Crusader

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
And why did you need to make a new thread about this?

Because I can make any post I want that stays within Anandtechs rules.
Oh and you are an absolute nobody who has no authority over me 5150. Just so we have that clear kid?

See ya when you actually have the knowledge to answer a question with an actual verifiable answer. Later little troll.

All you're doing is spamming the forums with your jibberish.


P.S. there's already an Oblivion thread.

troll

 

[LittleNemoNES]

Well Joker is an ATI employee

 

[DeathReborn]

Originally posted by: gersson
Well Joker is an ATI employee

Not proved but suspected by many. Joker should stop complaining when someone posts threads like he does. Nice sig btw Joker... not, lol.


Crusader, it's because they increased Branching performance by 50% (no not Dynamic Branching Joker so don't go there). They did make some other minor improvements aswell but nothing earth shattering.

nVidia made a sensible economic decision with the 7900's, little bit of tweaking and remove lots of transistors so they can get a bigger profit marging and have improved performance.

 

[imported_Crusader]

Originally posted by: DeathReborn

Originally posted by: gersson
Well Joker is an ATI employee

Not proved but suspected by many. Joker should stop complaining when someone posts threads like he does. Nice sig btw Joker... not, lol.


Crusader, it's because they increased Branching performance by 50% (no not Dynamic Branching Joker so don't go there). They did make some other minor improvements aswell but nothing earth shattering.

nVidia made a sensible economic decision with the 7900's, little bit of tweaking and remove lots of transistors so they can get a bigger profit marging and have improved performance.

Thank you DR!
I was not aware of the branch performance improvements

This was the only tidbit of changes that I've seen noted (from H)

NVIDIA also made some very minor changes to their internal caches though no details on exactly what those size changes encompassed were given to us. So, just know that a little tweaking did go on there. They have also done some tweaking to the framebuffer blending in their ROPs, so in some situations framebuffer blending could be faster.

 

[Mingon]

Dont forget as well as the boost from higher fillrate (rop's running quicker) the vertex shaders are running at 700 mhz rather than 550 ( so 150 (difference) x 8 (vs) = 1200 mhz so almost the same as having an extra 2 vertex shaders)

 

[otispunkmeyer]

well nv did manage to lop out about 20million transisitors going from the old 7800's to the 7900's, and given the time frame they must of got some little efficiency gains somewhere, couple to that the fact the 7900GTX runs 100mhz faster than the GTX512 and thats probably your answer (550mhz vs 650mhz)

crusader your sig kind of destroys any credibility you have lol, might wanna tone it down as people like joker and extelleron will use it against you

 

[imported_Crusader]

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer
well nv did manage to lop out about 20million transisitors going from the old 7800's to the 7900's, and given the time frame they must of got some little efficiency gains somewhere, couple to that the fact the 7900GTX runs 100mhz faster than the GTX512 and thats probably your answer (550mhz vs 650mhz)

crusader your sig kind of destroys any credibility you have lol, might wanna tone it down as people like joker and extelleron will use it against you

I'm not concerned about anyone else. At least Im not peddling "hot deals". I'm not on commission like the troll is. I think it was kind of revealed here who the PITA truley is on this forum.. that is our friend 5150, the Bad Version of Rollo!
Im just saying the truth of the matter on the video card market, just so no one forgets when all the kids jump in on hating FXs like it was the only time period in the GPU market that matters.. And I think it enhances my credibility, its the truth and no one disputes it.
Sure, it looks fanboyish.. but I'm not ashamed to admire or use a quality product.

Small block Chevrolets have been the industry leader for 50 years as well in performance and interchangable parts. Im not ashamed to have a car with one in it, I think they are great as well. Corvette motors are still based on the original groundbreaking small block chevy design, and everyone knows the Z06 is a 505HP beast that not only doenst suffer the gas guzzling tax qualification like all other supercars, but also (the entire car) is truley the pinnacle of engineering excellence.
If only the Corvette team designed all of GM's cars..

Anyway, I just noticed this GTX512-GTX difference because the 7800GT to 7900GT results do not have such a wide disparity.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Crusader
Small block Chevrolets have been the industry leader for 50 years as well in performance and interchangable parts. Im not ashamed to have a car with one in it, I think they are great as well. Corvette motors are still based on the original groundbreaking small block chevy design, and everyone knows the Z06 is a 505HP beast that not only doenst suffer the gas guzzling tax qualification like all other supercars, but also (the entire car) is truley the pinnacle of engineering excellence.

Hahahaaha...Corvette the pinnacle of engineering excellence?? Getting 505hp from a 7 LITRE!!! (73hp/litre) engine doesn't require much engineering excellence. Honda regularly breaks 100hp/litre...hell the S2000 got 120hp/litre from an engine with piston (note I said piston speed not rpm) speeds that exceeded those of Formula 1 all while being under warranty and in all likelihood lasting longer than the Corvette engine. And they also met low emission requirements.

Granted the Corvette is lots of car for the money but no way in hell it is the pinnacle of engineering excellence. I would say something like the Lotus Elise, Porsche 911, or BMW M3 is engineering excellence, although not the pinnacle.

And been the leader for 50 years (did you mean just including American cars cause then I'd agree)???

 

[imported_Crusader]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: Crusader
Small block Chevrolets have been the industry leader for 50 years as well in performance and interchangable parts. Im not ashamed to have a car with one in it, I think they are great as well. Corvette motors are still based on the original groundbreaking small block chevy design, and everyone knows the Z06 is a 505HP beast that not only doenst suffer the gas guzzling tax qualification like all other supercars, but also (the entire car) is truley the pinnacle of engineering excellence.

Hahahaaha...Corvette the pinnacle of engineering excellence?? Getting 505hp from a 7 LITRE!!! (73hp/litre) engine doesn't require much engineering excellence. And the Viper WAS even worse, getting 500hp from an 8 litre engine. Honda regularly breaks 100hp/litre...hell the S2000 got 120hp/litre from an engine with piston (note I said piston speed not rpm) speeds that exceeded those of Formula 1 all while being under warranty and in all likelihood lasting longer than the Corvette engine. And they also met low emission requirements.

Granted the Corvette is lots of car for the money but no way in hell it is the pinnacle of engineering excellence. I would say something like the Lotus Elise or Porsche 911 is engineering excellence, although not the pinnacle.

That Honda you speak of is a POS. Not even in the same league of engineering or performance as a Corvette from the suspension to the build quality to the motor and transmission.
Theres a LOT more to engineering than HP per liter..

Its in inline 4cylinder (woot?) with 237HP@7800rpm! LOL!!! You must certainly be kidding. Thing winds up like a toy RC car and is still dog slow yet sounds like dog crap out the exhaust compared to a lopey cammed V8.
My LT1 has 300HP without hitting the N20 and a HELL of a lot more torque than that 162ft lbs that the Honda puts out.

Not to mention the S2000 isnt the hottest looking ride around.. not quite as hot as a Z06 out in the city

When it comes to performance cars, HP per liter does matter (to beat the competition obviously) but its not the most important part.. driving excitement and performance is.

That little S2000 is not even close to being in the same league as Corvette by any standard of measure. You are right though in that the Vette is the biggest bang/buck supercar.
And if you run that whopping 237HP motor hard everyday.. Im sorry but 7800RPM will destroy any motor faster than the ground stomping Z06 with 505HP @6300RPM.. and still get smoked by the Z06. Is the S2000 motor built by hand by experts? I think not. Comes off an assembly line unlike the Z06 LS7.
I know, I have friends who work at Honda and run the injection molding for the castings. Their quality aint all that jack! Im not saying its bad, Im saying its not above anything else.
Thats what I study, metallurgy and industrial engineering, though personally do SQL/webdev at my job, I know plenty of people in the car MANUFACTURING business and I know much about it myself.
I work at a foundry of a major US manufacturer (and the most advanced foundry in the world) so you can argue all you want and I'll win on knowing about production of the major brands like GM/Ford/Honda.

But the S2000 is no supercar and Im amazed you made the comparison at all.. :disgust:
Its an economy car from Honda.. thats little more than a point A to point B ride for liberals who dont really know anything about cars but "its a Honda" gotta be the best right? HP per liter FTW!

Didnt mean to go off on you, cuz i dont really care what you think but I have close ties with the actual production of these cars you speak of.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Crusader

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: Crusader
Small block Chevrolets have been the industry leader for 50 years as well in performance and interchangable parts. Im not ashamed to have a car with one in it, I think they are great as well. Corvette motors are still based on the original groundbreaking small block chevy design, and everyone knows the Z06 is a 505HP beast that not only doenst suffer the gas guzzling tax qualification like all other supercars, but also (the entire car) is truley the pinnacle of engineering excellence.

Hahahaaha...Corvette the pinnacle of engineering excellence?? Getting 505hp from a 7 LITRE!!! (73hp/litre) engine doesn't require much engineering excellence. And the Viper WAS even worse, getting 500hp from an 8 litre engine. Honda regularly breaks 100hp/litre...hell the S2000 got 120hp/litre from an engine with piston (note I said piston speed not rpm) speeds that exceeded those of Formula 1 all while being under warranty and in all likelihood lasting longer than the Corvette engine. And they also met low emission requirements.

Granted the Corvette is lots of car for the money but no way in hell it is the pinnacle of engineering excellence. I would say something like the Lotus Elise or Porsche 911 is engineering excellence, although not the pinnacle.

That Honda you speak of is a POS. Not even in the same league of engineering or performance as a Corvette from the suspension to the build quality to the motor and transmission.
Theres a LOT more to engineering than HP per liter..

Its in inline 4cylinder (woot?) with 237HP@7800rpm! LOL!!! You must certainly be kidding. Thing winds up like a toy RC car and is still dog slow yet sounds like dog crap out the exhaust compared to a lopey cammed V8.
My LT1 has 300HP without hitting the N20 and a HELL of a lot more torque than that 162ft lbs that the Honda puts out.

Not to mention the S2000 isnt the hottest looking ride around.. not quite as hot as a Z06 out in the city

When it comes to performance cars, HP per liter does matter (to beat the competition obviously) but its not the most important part.. driving excitement and performance is.

That little S2000 is not even close to being in the same league as Corvette by any standard of measure. You are right though in that the Vette is the biggest bang/buck supercar.
And if you run that whopping 237HP motor hard everyday.. Im sorry but 7800RPM will destroy any motor faster than the ground stomping Z06 with 505HP @6300RPM.. and still get smoked by the Z06. Is the S2000 motor built by hand by experts? I think not. Comes off an assembly line unlike the Z06 LS7.
I know, I have friends who work at Honda and run the injection molding for the castings. Their quality aint all that jack! Im not saying its bad, Im saying its not above anything else.
Thats what I study, metallurgy and industrial engineering, though personally do SQL/webdev at my job, I know plenty of people in the car MANUFACTURING business and I know much about it myself.
I work at a foundry of a major US manufacturer (and the most advanced foundry in the world) so you can argue all you want and I'll win on knowing about production of the major brands like GM/Ford/Honda.

But the S2000 is no supercar and Im amazed you made the comparison at all.. :disgust:
Its an economy car from Honda.. thats little more than a point A to point B ride for liberals who dont really know anything about cars but "its a Honda" gotta be the best right? HP per liter FTW!

Didnt mean to go off on you, cuz i dont really care what you think but I have close ties with the actual production of these cars you speak of.

You said the Corvette is the pinnacle of engineering experience. To be the pinnacle you must excel in all areas and use the latest technology (to a point) but I'm sorry the Corvette does not.

I brought up the S2000 to prove that with respect to JUST the engine the Corvette is not the pinnacle. (The S2000 is nowhere near the pinnacle but I also never said it was.)
The Corvette still uses a 2 valve pushrod engine. Just because they use the same technology as they did 50 years ago doesn't make them the best for those 50 years.:roll:

Imagine what another car manufacturer would do with 7 litres to play with. Just going to 4 valves per cylinder would increase power by a lot. (For example TVR built a 7 litre V12 made from I think it was 2 Ford inline-6s and it was putting out over 900hp and was putting out so much torque that it broke the dyno on which it was being tested.)

As far as handling, I have never seen or heard anyone say that the Corvette handles better than something like a Lotus Elise/Exige. Go here and look at the lap times. The Lotus Exige just pips the Corvette (not sure if it's the Z06 though). So even with at least 200hp(and a hell of a lot more torque) up on the Exige, it still loses a lap of a track, which means it must get destroyed in the corners.

Oh and on the same site look for the Top Gear car survey which is the largest of it's kind in the world and takes into account all characteristics of the car plus dealer experience and guess who won in 2004(latest results because it takes a while to tabulate die to the scope of the survey)??? S2000. Taking that into account, I'd say the S2000 has more of a claim to be called the pinnacle than does the Corvette.

You don't know me very well so don't assume I'm one of those rice boys with a souped up Honda. I personally dislike most of the cars they make but give credit where it's due. I just think that the pinnacle of engineering excellence is definitely NOT the corvette.

 

[imported_Crusader]

Originally posted by: thilan29
You don't know me very well so don't assume I'm one of those rice boys with a souped up Honda. I personally dislike most of the cars they make but give credit where it's due. I just think that the pinnacle of engineering excellence is definitely NOT the corvette.

Well Im not going to sit in my GTX thread and argue about cars but if you want to continue, via PM would be fine.

I think the pinnacle of engineering achievement is the Corvette in build quality and in specs. We disagree.. Im over it. I was just a bit dumbfounded to hear the S2000 being brought up in a convo about a Z06 Corvette..

Imagine what another car manufacturer would do with 7 litres to play with. Just going to 4 valves per cylinder would increase power by a lot. (For example TVR built a 7 litre V12 made from I think it was 2 Ford inline-6s and it was putting out over 900hp and was putting out so much torque that it broke the dyno on which it was being tested.)

Its one thing to say it, its another thing to actually put a motor into production. Dont discount American car manufacturers so easily. "Imagine what another manufacturer would do with 7 liters to play with"?? LOL.. well apparantly they dont do much! Because there isnt too much out there reasonably priced that performs, is reliable and sells like Vettes do!
Its not that easy, and the Vette and its motor is INDEED the pinnacle. Like I said if it was easy and its trivial to produce a Corvette, then other car companies could do it.. but they cant.

and ya it sounds like you love the "HP per liter" argument.
I still have yet to see anyone do better with a supercar overall than the Z06. If just anyone could build a Z06 (or Z06 killer) they would.. but only Chevrolet does. And the Z06 is the top dog beating out cars twice its price in many cases.. yet out engineering them as well. Theres really not much more to it..




Getting back to more on topic, your rig is almost identical to mine in brand of parts and your OC.

I also have a venice (3200+ tho) @2.5ghz. But Im running on stock 1.36vcore on mine. Just got done with 9hr 15min prime95 stability last night. I am receiving a BFG 7900GTX this week. We even have the same case, but my mobo is a DFI.. which might be the difference in our overclocks (mine running stable on stock vcore). DFI has all japanese capacitors and Im not sure if Abit does or not.

 

[thilanliyan]

Yes we disagree, and that's fine. I'd just like to say, I highly doubt that the Corvette would sell well if it WASN'T so cheap compared to other sports cars. Again, I agree that it is probably the best bang for buck.

I'm really interested to hear what "out engineer" means to you also. To me it means extracting maximum efficiency from minimum input with a decent (but not large) safety margin while also performing extremely well.

Anyway, I'm done with this.

About the Abit board, I think they also use Japanese capacitors...says right on the box...hehe. I got the same overclock as you on my old MSI board. It didn't need any voltage adjustment and reached the same overclock. Had to go PCI-e so I ditched it.

 

[imported_Crusader]

MSI also uses japanese capacitors. I regard MSI highly. I tend to go either Asus (for max ram compatibility/stability in general) or DFI if I am overclocking (though this board and I think the others are very picky on ram from what I've read).

Abit was my old favorite, but they've had some financial problems and I ended up abandoning them. But Abit made a great board in the AXP days and old P2 days of OCing from what I remember. The new boards like you have look good too but havent really looked into them with all my friends saying stay away due to a possible takeover, some friends from taiwan told me this a while back.

Out-engineering? I'll just drop it yet I'd agree with you on your idea of the term, but my only point would be "why doenst that effiency scale?" I coudl go on about this, but it just appears to me that as far as economy cars go, the Honda Civic is a very small car yet has amazing mileage.. but Honda doesnt seem capable of porting that level of MPG to their truck, or large car lineup. Its like a gem in the rough IMO. Much like the Corvette is to me.. a great (perfect?) car like the Civic (for its intended use).
I consider both "best in class". Vette might be in a class of its own in reality though due to its price/performance.
anyway I said I'd drop it so Im stopping..

 

[Bobthelost]

I'm yet to see or hear of an american car that's built as well as a BMW. Some of them look pretty enough, but build quality? Pah.

(what, there's a point to this thread other than a crusader/nvida fanboy vs 5150 joker/ATI fanboy thread?)

 

[imported_Crusader]

Originally posted by: Bobthelost
I'm yet to see or hear of an american car that's built as well as a BMW. Some of them look pretty enough, but build quality? Pah.

(what, there's a point to this thread other than a crusader/nvida fanboy vs 5150 joker/ATI fanboy thread?)

Actually it was a valid question that has been answered. 5150 trolled here as usual. But hes gone now and we have actually had a civil conversation without him. :thumbsup:

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: thilan29
Yes we disagree, and that's fine. I'd just like to say, I highly doubt that the Corvette would sell well if it WASN'T so cheap compared to other sports cars. Again, I agree that it is probably the best bang for buck.

I'm really interested to hear what "out engineer" means to you also. To me it means extracting maximum efficiency from minimum input with a decent (but not large) safety margin while also performing extremely well.

Anyway, I'm done with this.

About the Abit board, I think they also use Japanese capacitors...says right on the box...hehe. I got the same overclock as you on my old MSI board. It didn't need any voltage adjustment and reached the same overclock. Had to go PCI-e so I ditched it.

Thilan, not to insult you or any of the ricecar lovers out there, but they all do really just sound like giant rolling rip farts. I myself am sentimental for the torquey V8's and the rumble. Here is my car.

I would be insulted for example, if you used the word Honda in the same sentence as my Z-28. But thats just me. Different leagues and a different kind of driving excitement.

But, isn't this the video forum? How in the hell did we get here? LOL :beer: for everybody!!

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: thilan29
Yes we disagree, and that's fine. I'd just like to say, I highly doubt that the Corvette would sell well if it WASN'T so cheap compared to other sports cars. Again, I agree that it is probably the best bang for buck.

I'm really interested to hear what "out engineer" means to you also. To me it means extracting maximum efficiency from minimum input with a decent (but not large) safety margin while also performing extremely well.

Anyway, I'm done with this.

About the Abit board, I think they also use Japanese capacitors...says right on the box...hehe. I got the same overclock as you on my old MSI board. It didn't need any voltage adjustment and reached the same overclock. Had to go PCI-e so I ditched it.

Thilan, not to insult you or any of the ricecar lovers out there, but they all do really just sound like giant rolling rip farts. I myself am sentimental for the torquey V8's and the rumble. Here is my car.

I would be insulted for example, if you used the word Honda in the same sentence as my Z-28. But thats just me. Different leagues and a different kind of driving excitement.

But, isn't this the video forum? How in the hell did we get here? LOL :beer: for everybody!!

I hope you're not generalising ALL japanese cars as "ricecars". DIdin't you read my post before?? I said I give credit where it's due. Would you be happier if I used something other than a Honda as an example?? The S2000 deserves credit. Just as I gave the Corvette credit for being very good bang for the buck. I also hate when people put that disgusting sounding huge muffler on their cars.

I also like many American cars, but none of the new ones. I love some of the old mustangs and the Stingray vettes (now those are some bad-ass cars). Please don't call me a rice car lover cause I'm not...I'm a car lover, mostly old cars.