[OC3D.net] Nvidia making GameWorks Source Code Publicly available

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Feb 19, 2009
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Well it's a step in the right direction. Hopefully AMD will at least be able to optimise their drivers a bit better if they can see the code, even if they can't contribute performance fixes back to it.

AMD have optimized for HBAO+ awhile now, as well as for GodRays and HairWorks, which use x64 tessellation factor, which AMD drivers override to x32. You can't notice the difference but it runs faster.

Recent examples, even without AMD optimized drivers, HBAO+ in Rise of Tomb Raider and The Division has the same performance impact on AMD as NV.

And GodRays in Fallout 4:

 

Good_fella

Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Exclusive feature in industry standard API? D: AMD has dx12 in the pocket.

Big News! Pascal will not support AC - confirmed by Good_fella

Can't spot trolling, I see.


If it industry standard API why everyone supporting different features? (so far)
 

dacostafilipe

Senior member
Oct 10, 2013
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Where is all the new stuff released with GW SDK 3.1?

Source code for stuff that nobody is going to use and can't even integrate into their game is useless.
 

Goatsecks

Senior member
May 7, 2012
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One step in the right direction but still far from ideal

Couldn't agree more. :thumbsup:

Edit: I would like to add, as a lot of you are too busy circle jerking to acknowlege this; this is a positive thing! It shows that Nvidia are not beyond criticism from the community. This may represent the thin end of the wedge for the worse aspects of gameworks.
 
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TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
3,993
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They gave it to Khronos, where their CEO is nvidia guy (Vice CEO).

So, one can say AMD gave mantle to nvidia...

And Nvidia gave gameworks to a lot of devs,we are talking source code here,why is everybody bitching about nvidia not releasing GW under MIT but are ok with amd not releasing something they already promised that they would.

No matter who the CEO is, nvidia can not touch property that does belong to someone else.
 

airfathaaaaa

Senior member
Feb 12, 2016
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And Nvidia gave gameworks to a lot of devs,we are talking source code here,why is everybody bitching about nvidia not releasing GW under MIT but are ok with amd not releasing something they already promised that they would.

No matter who the CEO is, nvidia can not touch property that does belong to someone else.
so amd giving their code in order to be on vulkan and vulkan being open source that means that amd didnt gave mantle to people only because you dont see the mantle source code and you choose to ignore the existance of vulkan just to justify that post?
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
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Edit: I would like to add, as a lot of you are too busy circle jerking to acknowlege this; this is a positive thing! It shows that Nvidia are not beyond criticism from the community. This may represent the thin end of the wedge for the worse aspects of gameworks.

Nvidia has shown they are willing to back-step if it affects their image/dollars. They locked out OC'ing on laptops or something of the sort and quickly went back on it when the community got upset.

NV is going to do what NV does and this is just another means for them to get into more games.
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
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Well it's a step in the right direction. Hopefully AMD will at least be able to optimise their drivers a bit better if they can see the code, even if they can't contribute performance fixes back to it.

Absolutely, I don't get all the negativity about this development.
 

Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
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https://github.com/NVIDIAGameWorks/FaceWorks/blob/master/license.txt.

I don't know that a single person has actually posted yet the correct legal interpretation of this license. The source code here IS open source. The object code and art assets can be used, but not modified and redistributed in modified form. Object code = black boxes (.dlls, etc.). The object code + art assets are "open-ish" or whatever you want to call it. It's essentially free to use but not to change.

nVidia license said:
Source Code: Developer shall have the right to modify and create derivative works with the Source Code. Developer shall own any derivative works ("Derivatives") it creates to the Source Code, provided that Developer uses the Materials in accordance with the terms of this Agreement. Developer may distribute the Derivatives, provided that all NVIDIA copyright notices and trademarks are used properly and the Derivatives include the following statement: "This software contains source code provided by NVIDIA Corporation."

As long as you obey the formalities in the document, its open source. Plenty of open source licenses require you to include an attribution to the original author, this is nothing new.

The key thing is how much of the actual effect needs compiled source alone to run, and how much requires black boxed "object code." I haven't examined the repository in depth enough to say whether it is effectively closed or open source because this 100% depends on how much of the functional code is in source and how much is in object code.

BUT nVidia can cancel your license whenever they want. So, they can "un-open" the source as they please. They don't get to own what you built on top of the source, but you also can't use their source any more.

I would not put overly much stock in the cancellation clause. I haven't done the research so this is just speaking from my current knowledge, but I'm pretty sure there is no case directly on point for this sort of situation. Fair use (for copyright aspects), exhaustion of rights, laches, promissory estoppel, invalidity (for patent aspects) etc. all come into play (in the US). If you wanted to fight that cancellation you could easily have a case that wouldn't get thrown out and could stall that for years (or at least until the preliminary injunction, TRO hearing if you get really unlucky...). The reason people don't fight these is that in all likelihood you could raise infringement on all 4 IP families, and breach of contract, plus maybe even some tort stuff. It would be a massive battle for not much gain compared to refactoring the code.

It certainly isn't as straightforward as the MIT license, but its definitely more than the old GW black box method.

Even if you don't change the code (to avoid nvidia having any right to cancel any part of your game), you can still look at what code is running and optimize based on inspection of the actual source, which is still a huge leg up. (Unless the technique is patented and they decide to cancel the game, and that isn't estopped or precluded by (F)RAND doctrines.)
 
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airfathaaaaa

Senior member
Feb 12, 2016
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the problem is while amd made their version totally open source nvidia actually released a newer version with lots of replacements that they will actively promote instead of the old ones
in other news they have made a legacy software open source-ish that in the long run wont help at all probably just a smoke screen because of the gpuopen
 

Elixer

Lifer
May 7, 2002
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I don't know that a single person has actually posted yet the correct legal interpretation of this license.
That is because the correct legal license is MIA, as is the rest of the source.
That is only 1 library, we have yet to see what everything else will be released under.

Again, wait and see.
 

Azix

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2014
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the problem is while amd made their version totally open source nvidia actually released a newer version with lots of replacements that they will actively promote instead of the old ones
in other news they have made a legacy software open source-ish that in the long run wont help at all probably just a smoke screen because of the gpuopen

this is probably it. We'll see what they do from now on but this could easily be a part of the planned obsolescence. Pascal will probably be built to do well with the new gameworks and this old stuff they won't be pushing will do nothing. Its very likely this wont have a great impact. Its probably not coincidence that this is happening when we see "improvements" - more demanding versions - of HBAO+ and PCSS.

On the other hand, if anything in there is actually useful developers can try to apply it to their games.
 
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Game_dev

Member
Mar 2, 2016
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Well it's a step in the right direction. Hopefully AMD will at least be able to optimise their drivers a bit better if they can see the code, even if they can't contribute performance fixes back to it.

AMD's problem has been weak tesselation performance and lack luster developer support. This won't help them. Although it will take away their excuses.
 

garagisti

Senior member
Aug 7, 2007
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@Headfoot
So blackbox codes are still just that. Only that you could write the code using black boxes yourself now, instead of Nvidia engineers. In short more of this everywhere, and Nvidia wouldn't pay devs.

In a way it is a positive thing, in that now when the devs are not on the take, they may concentrate on doing their jobs, than some bloatware.

I have taken massive, multi-ory apartment sized dumps on Ubi in the past about Gimpworks, but hey, if Far Cry Primal is perhaps result of all that "open source" where they're not working so closely with developers, it is only a good thing for us gamers. Results are in the benchmark.
 

Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
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That is because the correct legal license is MIA, as is the rest of the source.
That is only 1 library, we have yet to see what everything else will be released under.

Again, wait and see.

No, it isnt. I linked it.

of course if other effects have different licenses, then sure it'll be different. But that's a valueless assertion. "If things are different they will be different." Well, yes.
 

Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
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@Headfoot
So blackbox codes are still just that. Only that you could write the code using black boxes yourself now, instead of Nvidia engineers. In short more of this everywhere, and Nvidia wouldn't pay devs.

On what do you base this assessment? I didn't look deeply into the source posted to see what level of black box involvement there is. It could be lots of black box .dlls and the like, or it could be little. I can't say and I'm not going to spend the time to find out either. From my 50,000 foot high level once over of the FaceWorks code it seemed like most of the important parts were there in source. Did you work through the source?
 

Elixer

Lifer
May 7, 2002
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No, it isnt. I linked it.

of course if other effects have different licenses, then sure it'll be different. But that's a valueless assertion. "If things are different they will be different." Well, yes.

I said it was MIA, since most of gameworks is NOT up yet, and you posted about the 1 library's license that is shown.
That doesn't mean everything will be released under the same license-- I don't know why that is so difficult to comprehend.

So, once again, wait and see what they do, and for the record, as of right now, they haven't added anything new.
 

Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
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I highly doubt there will be many different licenses. We'll see who ends up being right. If what you're trying to say is "maybe they will use a different license, maybe they won't" then yeah. Water is wet, grass is green.

Duly noted that maybe they could possibly do something different, or not.
 

PPB

Golden Member
Jul 5, 2013
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It's fine on more advanced hardware with strong tesselation support. Old architectures like GCN will of course struggle with new features.

Nvidia is well known for using the latest and greatest techniques on their closed software, just like when they opted for x87 in their CPU PhysX.

Yeah, no. But keep trying. It is entertaining see you fail at trolling every single time.
 

crisium

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2001
2,643
615
136
AMD have optimized for HBAO+ awhile now, as well as for GodRays and HairWorks, which use x64 tessellation factor, which AMD drivers override to x32. You can't notice the difference but it runs faster.

Recent examples, even without AMD optimized drivers, HBAO+ in Rise of Tomb Raider and The Division has the same performance impact on AMD as NV.

And GodRays in Fallout 4:


Man, look at the old architecture struggle with new features.
 

airfathaaaaa

Senior member
Feb 12, 2016
692
12
81
It's fine on more advanced hardware with strong tesselation support. Old architectures like GCN will of course struggle with new features.
i wonder what your troll excuse will be when the gcn on the polaris will introduce hardware culling :sneaky:
 

garagisti

Senior member
Aug 7, 2007
592
7
81
On what do you base this assessment? I didn't look deeply into the source posted to see what level of black box involvement there is. It could be lots of black box .dlls and the like, or it could be little. I can't say and I'm not going to spend the time to find out either. From my 50,000 foot high level once over of the FaceWorks code it seemed like most of the important parts were there in source. Did you work through the source?
From what i read of text in plain English, it seemed plainly and painfully obvious imho. It says you could use objects (i read interpreted that to be black boxes tools), and it is only that Nvidia is not writing the code which interacts with those objects. Remember those devs that Nvidia used to send to studios for Gamework certified games? Now the studio's devs will do that work, as they see fit.

Erm, sure it is a start, but let us see how far they will go with this, but i wouldn't have my hopes set too high. I'd be happy if they prove me wrong, as from a consumer view point, hopefully more is always for the better.
 
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