#OccupyWallstreet

[HendrixFan]

The Daily Show is a comedy show. You don't get your news from there, do you?

Strawman again. I was illustrating that people of all walks of life attend the OWS protests. Just because someone has a nice laptop and goes down there for a day does not in any way mean everyone there has a nice laptop. The Daily Show bit actually goofs on the OWS people in a way you would appreciate, but it also serves to show there is a disparity in the people there. 99% encompasses a broad range, didn't you know that?

I get my news from plenty of sources, and I enjoy the Daily Show as witty satire to help digest it all without getting too frustrated.

 

[Jhhnn]

How come you ran away from our argument? Ready to admit how mindless you were in following your leaders' talking points? Ready to admitthat OWS is based on what is mostly a lie? I've proved my argument, you've run away. What gives kiddo?

All you proved was your willful blindness wrt unions and their place in the scheme of political giving. That stands on its own, requiring nothing more from me.

Here it is again-

http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/blio.php

Advantages of 15:1, 3:1, & 17:1 are not overcome by any fuzziness in the figures or obfuscations as to who's giving what, unless you want to claim that "the base of large individual donors ... predominantly made up of business executives and professionals" are somehow union people.

Good luck with that. Perhaps some of your fellow denialists will chime in, but even they seem to have better sense than you wrt that particular subject.

 

[Jhhnn]

Why do you keep making strawman arguments? Since when is Occupy Wall Street (again with the key term being Wall Street) a movement about protectionism and free trade? If anything the Tea Partiers had that agenda much higher up on their list. OWS is about the powerful using their power to funnel money upwards and reduce the quality of life for the rest of society.

When the cost of producing a good drops $6, as an example, by offshoring the labor but the price of the good drops $1, and the company now enjoys an additional $4 per unit in profit you have a disparity. You can say that the commoners shouldn't complain because they are paying $1 less, but that is a short sighted argument. Not only are they collectively losing out on the $6 in wages but they only gain a $1 in lower costs. That is a total loss of $5 even though things are "cheaper". How does the top end fare? Instead of paying out $6 in labor per unit, they pay $1, pass on savings of $1 and overall net gain $4.

The real problem comes when companies have merged into oligopolies and there are no real choices to stop buying goods and services from such companies. There aren't really options, and if they exist they carry a significant premium, one that somebody who is struggling to make ends meet would be unable to choose. See how the game is rigged? See what OWS is about? The choices you propose don't exist in any practical sense.



The problem is cost cutting is passed into corporate profits and funneled to the elite. If the cost cutting profits were distributed in a manner that encouraged a healthy middle class then higher costs would simply be inflation.

The problem isn't the cost of goods, be it lower, higher or holding steady. The problem is that income for anyone not in the elite classes has been stagnant or dropping for 30 years. The erosion of the middle class makes cheap goods insignificant. The credit bubbles (CC, homes and home equity loans, student loans, etc) have pushed the general populace further and further into debt just to be able to afford these cheaper goods. The problem is that income is dropping, yet GDP continues to rise. Money is being funneled to the top at the expense of everyone else. Credit has served as a curtain to hide that fact for some time, but the bubbles are all on the verge of popping (including the national debt).

Do *not* attempt to confuse them with reason. Their minds are made up. It's all derision & denial, all the time. They'd be hooting & flinging their own poo if that was all they had...

 

[HendrixFan]

Do *not* attempt to confuse them with reason. Their minds are made up. It's all derision & denial, all the time. They'd be hooting & flinging their own poo if that was all they had...

The sad thing is at least 99.5% of people will do better when there is a strong and robust middle class. Only those at the very very top are better off now than when the middle class meant something. I can guarantee that everyone on this forum, even those that do very well for themselves, would be better off without this crazy income disparity we have.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

The sad thing is at least 99.5% of people will do better when there is a strong and robust middle class. Only those at the very very top are better off now than when the middle class meant something. I can guarantee that everyone on this forum, even those that do very well for themselves, would be better off without this crazy income disparity we have.

Ok, that could be the case. The problem with this scenario is how you on the left want to change it. You seem to want to bring the top down instead of lift the bottom up.

 

[monovillage]

The sad thing is at least 99.5% of people will do better when there is a strong and robust middle class. Only those at the very very top are better off now than when the middle class meant something. I can guarantee that everyone on this forum, even those that do very well for themselves, would be better off without this crazy income disparity we have.

I don't disagree with this statement, now tell me how you're going to achieve it?

 

[Phokus]

Ok, that could be the case. The problem with this scenario is how you on the left want to change it. You seem to want to bring the top down instead of lift the bottom up.

As opposed to the right, who wants to bring the middle and the bottom down and lift the top up further.

 

[Phokus]

Yes, in Egypt I saw a non-democratic system in which the people had absolutely no say in their government. In OWS, I see a democratic system the people can use to effect change, but instead decide not to bathe and to block traffic.

Really...you are comparing a nation ruled by a despot with the US? Do you even believe that yourself?

What next, US prisons are the same as Soviet era Gulags?

We live in a faux democratic society. We live in a society where politicians are kept as pets by the wealthy. We're moving back to the robber baron days of America. Until money is removed from the system we will not have a society where people can effect change via the established system.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

As opposed to the right, who wants to bring the middle and the bottom down and lift the top up further.

negative. The Right wants all to have the freedom to succeed.

 

[davmat787]

The sad thing is at least 99.5% of people will do better when there is a strong and robust middle class. Only those at the very very top are better off now than when the middle class meant something. I can guarantee that everyone on this forum, even those that do very well for themselves, would be better off without this crazy income disparity we have.

I think you are correct, and I would be flabbergasted if anyone could prove otherwise. However, the problem is how to fix this when Congress themselves have been proven complicit in the creation of this problem, and don't seem to want to change this.

What we need to do is put aside ALL of the partisan bickering and penny-ante bullshit first and foremost. It plays right into their hands. Without getting some representatives on the inside that will truly represent the public, I just don't see anything changing.

 

[Phokus]

negative. The Right wants all to have the freedom to succeed.

Including the freedom of Capital to destroy middle class jobs and ship them oversees.

 

[soundforbjt]

The Daily Show is a comedy show. You don't get your news from there, do you?

Funny, since Daily show watchers are more informed than Fox News watchers.

 

[davmat787]

As opposed to the right, who wants to bring the middle and the bottom down and lift the top up further.

This is the kind of bullshit that I am talking about in my post above, thank you for the timely example. ProTip: Neither the elected D's or R's are interested in putting the public good at the forefront anymore. This partisan bickering only plays right into their hands as we spend time trying to score points rather than coming together.

Maybe its my middle child syndrome, and that my political inclinations are all over the map, but I swear I get whiplash reading the petty bickering that goes on between you partisans. No one party or ideology has a total monopoly on sound policy, so why pretend otherwise?

But I am sure you will disagree.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Ok, that could be the case. The problem with this scenario is how you on the left want to change it. You seem to want to bring the top down instead of lift the bottom up.

How would you change it?

Lower taxes? They're already at their lowest levels in over a century. Remove more financial regulations? They've already been gutted to the point that Americans are demanding we put back the regulations we used to have in place for banks. Economic prosperity is not being created for the majority of Americans, you simply cannot deny this after looking at the facts.

Lowering taxes and regulations are he cornerstones of Republican and Conservative economic ideology. These are two things that they achieved quite successfully over the last few decades. But the economy is in tatters now, what went wrong?

Time to put up or shutup CAD. You run around here making snide remarks, but never actually put in a valuable 2 cents as to how YOU would go about fixing the problem.

 

[HendrixFan]

I think you are correct, and I would be flabbergasted if anyone could prove otherwise. However, the problem is how to fix this when Congress themselves have been proven complicit in the creation of this problem, and don't seem to want to change this.

What we need to do is put aside ALL of the partisan bickering and penny-ante bullshit first and foremost. It plays right into their hands. Without getting some representatives on the inside that will truly represent the public, I just don't see anything changing.

Agreed. That is why OWS works better than Occupy DC. The problem is mega corporations control politics. We already see the beginnings of reporting the OWS issue as "left" and against the Rs. That is supports Obama. That misses the point and confuses the issue. Obama is just as bad as anyone in taking money from Wall Street, but even deeper, you cannot get elected without catering to big money donors. If you don't someone else will cater to them, get the money, get elected, and your principles do nothing to help.

The system needs to be changed.

 

[Phokus]

This is the kind of bullshit that I am talking about in my post above, thank you for the timely example. ProTip: Neither the elected D's or R's are interested in putting the public good at the forefront anymore. This partisan bickering only plays right into their hands as we spend time trying to score points rather than coming together.

Maybe its my middle child syndrome, and that my political inclinations are all over the map, but I swear I get whiplash reading the petty bickering that goes on between you partisans. No one party or ideology has a total monopoly on sound policy, so why pretend otherwise?

But I am sure you will disagree.

Protip: When i say 'the right', i ALSO mean the elected Democrats, you fucking twit.

 

[HendrixFan]

I don't disagree with this statement, now tell me how you're going to achieve it?

I'll post my thoughts but I have little time for that now. I'll be back later to put up my view.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

How would you change it?

Lower taxes? They're already at their lowest levels in over a century. Remove more financial regulations? They've already been gutted to the point that Americans are demanding we put back the regulations we used to have in place for banks. Economic prosperity is not being created for the majority of Americans, you simply cannot deny this after looking at the facts.

Lowering taxes and regulations are he cornerstones of Republican and Conservative economic ideology. These are two things that they achieved quite successfully over the last few decades. But the economy is in tatters now, what went wrong?

Time to put up or shutup CAD. You run around here making snide remarks, but never actually put in a valuable 2 cents as to how YOU would go about fixing the problem.

lol, you are so full of shit. People like bow, jman, etc are the ones running around like you claim. I've put out plenty of opinion on how things should be changed to make things better. However, this is about OWS and the whining left. They have no plan except to take more from the haves to support their out of date policies.
The real way to help everyone is to have less central gov't power. THEY are the ones who have allowed the system to be so lopsided. Get things back to local and state like the founders had it and we'd all be much better off.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

lol, you are so full of shit. People like bow, jman, etc are the ones running around like you claim. I've put out plenty of opinion on how things should be changed to make things better. However, this is about OWS and the whining left. They have no plan except to take more from the haves to support their out of date policies.
The real way to help everyone is to have less central gov't power. THEY are the ones who have allowed the system to be so lopsided. Get things back to local and state like the founders had it and we'd all be much better off.

Give me a real and honest view of how you would fix our economic problems.

What is your solution?

 

[Phokus]

Give me a real and honest view of how you would fix our economic problems.

What is your solution?

Standard rightwing bullshit: Cut taxes for the rich, free up trade (aka, ship more jobs oversees), etc.

Hasn't worked for several decades, and won't work in the future either.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Standard rightwing bullshit: Cut taxes for the rich, free up trade (aka, ship more jobs oversees), etc.

Hasn't worked for several decades, and won't work in the future either.

I want CAD to give me a real and substantive answer. This is the only way the right/left can have an honest debate and move forward towards real progress. I need to understand what his actual solution IS, not what simply what he's against.

So far all he's done is deflect, deflect, deflect...

 

[davmat787]

Protip: When i say 'the right', i ALSO mean the elected Democrats, you fucking twit.

Yea, cause anyone immediately hearing the phrase "the right" would immediately think of Democrats, and anyone that doesn't is a fucking twit.

But I forget just how hardcore to the fringe you roll, so my bad. Since all you do is dump on people I should have known you are a hardcore partisan, and hence part of the problem IMO.

 

[cubby1223]

The system needs to be changed.

"The system" will always adapt to tendencies of the people who vote.

It's easy to say "the system needs to be changed." It's damn near impossible to alter the way ~200 million free-willed free-thinking Americans individually choose to decide on a candidate to vote for.

Take a wild guess why "the system" doesn't change?

 

[cubby1223]

I want CAD to give me a real and substantive answer. This is the only way the right/left can have an honest debate and move forward towards real progress. I need to understand what his actual solution IS, not what simply what he's against.

So far all he's done is deflect, deflect, deflect...

It's so wonderful that you now declare your desire for "an honest debate."

You've been around this forum long enough to know that no debate is possible between the two sides.

You have to find a solution to the problem of "the left" and "the right" not capable of working together first, before you can go into the issues.

And you know this. You just want to score a few points here with your post.

What is *your* solution for ending the partisan bickering? I'll be the first to admit here I believe no real solution exists to the bickering and blame games that go on and on and on and on and on.


The "solutions" that typically come from "the left" of this forum, are along the lines of insulting "the other side" into submission. That doesn't work. Find a new solution.

 

[davmat787]

It's so wonderful that you now declare your desire for "an honest debate."

You've been around this forum long enough to know that no debate is possible between the two sides.

You have to find a solution to the problem of "the left" and "the right" not capable of working together first, before you can go into the issues.

And you know this. You just want to score a few points here with your post.

What is *your* solution for ending the partisan bickering? I'll be the first to admit here I believe no real solution exists to the bickering and blame games that go on and on and on and on and on.


The "solutions" that typically come from "the left" of this forum, are along the lines of insulting "the other side" into submission. That doesn't work. Find a new solution.

Not to interrupt, just want to add my opinion since I have been very vocal in regards to the partisan bullshit. One of the big problems I see is that there are several hardcore partisans on BOTH SIDES that threadcrap. And as soon as that happens, honest debate seems impossible as everything turns into a scoring and saving face contest.

I think it would take a tightly moderated forum for starters, but that of course introduces its own problems. Maybe it would be interesting to try a thread whose sole purpose is to find common ground on anything by only posting/replying when you agree.

No doubt an exercise in futility.