#OccupyWallstreet

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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
They have been "profiting" less and less and it is at the tipping point now. The middle class is eroding whether you will admit it or not. Paying a wage is better than mass unemployment, but the continual decline in wages is devastating to the country.

You are looking at wages as a snapshot, look at it on a timeline.

Speak for yourself. Anybody and everybody that wants to make more can and will do so. The cream will rise, just as I did.

You think like the protesters, that a job and living wage is somehow a "right". How's that working out in Greece? Lemme guess, you're just like the protesters that think a 20/hr wage is a right? As I've said time and time again, we've seen this pitch, the rise of the proletariat against the bourgeois. It's the worker getting screwed right? And that the owners of production are the root of all evil, right?

This is still America, where if you want to rise you can. And if you don't, you won't.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
What do you consider "way down" and "way up"? I know it has to be a different standard than "way down" or "way up" for taxation to you.

I'm looking at the numbers and over the last 30 years consumer debt is up pretty substantially adjusted for inflation. It dropped this year, but nothing most people would consider "way down" and certainly not enough to have any meaningful impact on the trend line.

So just how much is way down and way up to you?

I'm mainly focused on the obama economy and the radical shift from consumer debt to consumer saving. But keep parroting the talking point of "the last 30 years".

I thought it was "the last 8 years" last time the left had the talking point. I see it as a deliberate attempt to dillute the last 3 years of a failed presidency and the last 4+ of democrat controlled congress. American's won't fall for your deflection.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
Speak for yourself. Anybody and everybody that wants to make more can and will do so. The cream will rise, just as I did.

So everyone who makes less money does so because they don't want to? That makes no sense, even coming from you.

You think like the protesters, that a job and living wage is somehow a "right". How's that working out in Greece? Lemme guess, you're just like the protesters that think a 20/hr wage is a right?

No, I don't think a 20/hr wage is a right. We do live in a society, we aren't swinging from trees anymore. Society as a whole benefits when everyone does well. Throughout the course of history you will find few examples of top heavy societies that did well compared to those that were more broad. This isn't about one person, as your world view seems to dictate. This is about everyone, about society. Society is better off when the majority of people are doing well.

A living wage (not 20/hr as your example) may not be a right, or shouldn't be a right, but it should be something that we as a society can now ensure that any able bodied working citizen should receive. Because I'm a commie? No. Because it provides for a more stable, healthy, and ultimately fruitful society. What is a living wage? Something moderately above the poverty line. If someone works 40 hrs a week, that should be enough to stay out of poverty.

As I've said time and time again, we've seen this pitch, the rise of the proletariat against the bourgeois. It's the worker getting screwed right? And that the owners of production are the root of all evil, right?

This in power will abuse it. They will take and take until they take too much and those not in power realize they are the majority, and that simple fact gives them the strength to push for fairness. Production is not evil. Ownership of production isn't evil. It just is. Using ownership of production to push for things like unfavorable working conditions are evil. Evil isn't defined within something, it is the act, specifically the intent behind an act.

Pursuit of money isn't evil, though what people do in pursuit of money certainly can be.

This is still America, where if you want to rise you can. And if you don't, you won't.

Upward social mobility isn't very good in this country.

http://www.economist.com/node/15908469

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/2/7/45002641.pdf

There are plenty of factors, including personality disposition which is innate, all the way to intelligence which is also innate. You have the tools you are given to work with and not everyone can achieve the same things. Someone in the upper quarter of the intelligence bell curve will almost certainly do better than someone in the lower quarter, and "want to" or hard work will have little impact on that.

Social mobility however has been declining in conjunction with the wealth disparity increasing. Split into quintiles, very few people are now able to move more than one quintile in a generation. There are exceptions, and IIRC spidey you are one of the exceptions. Don't mistake you being an outlier (statistically speaking) as an expectation of the norm. Lebron James doesn't wonder why I am not in the NBA despite my passion for the game of basketball.

The most powerful indicator of financial success is where you started. That trumps any other factor. As a society that is not good for us because the best and brightest are not being rewarded for what they have to offer. When you have an aristocracy in place you reward birth above any other factor. How is that capitalism? It isn't about the fittest and strongest ascending, it is about the elites staying elite for generations because money has too much power in our system.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
Speak for yourself. Anybody and everybody that wants to make more can and will do so. The cream will rise, just as I did.

You think like the protesters, that a job and living wage is somehow a "right". How's that working out in Greece? Lemme guess, you're just like the protesters that think a 20/hr wage is a right? As I've said time and time again, we've seen this pitch, the rise of the proletariat against the bourgeois. It's the worker getting screwed right? And that the owners of production are the root of all evil, right?

This is still America, where if you want to rise you can. And if you don't, you won't.

I just don't understand why you concede that there are some systemic issues that have caused the gap to grow. By definition there will always be a top, middle, and bottom so saying everyone can rise isn't entirely true. Having this gap be reasonable is important to social stability and benefits everyone.

You substitute platitudes for actual analysis of the changes over the past 30 years which have been significant. The nonsense that you post here is an embarrassment to yourself and Conservatism in general.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
I'm mainly focused on the obama economy and the radical shift from consumer debt to consumer saving. But keep parroting the talking point of "the last 30 years".

I thought it was "the last 8 years" last time the left had the talking point. I see it as a deliberate attempt to dillute the last 3 years of a failed presidency and the last 4+ of democrat controlled congress. American's won't fall for your deflection.

I didn't vote for Obama and I won't in 2012. He is actually worse than I thought he would turn out to be when I didn't vote for him in 2008. I'm not seeking to protect him or his failures, which are plentiful. I don't root for sides, I root for results. I am liberal leaning in my dispositions, as I think we should move forward and not backward. But I am no Democratic shill.

The reason I use the 30 year time window is that is the timeline in which there has been a huge decline in the income for the middle class. A 30 year timeframe is certainly long enough to iron out any anomalies and give a very clear idea of direction. It isn't a talking point, it is a fact.

Now that you have bought some time by utilizing some of these intellectually dishonest debate tactics, and I'm honestly impressed you could cram so many into such a small space:

http://www.johntreed.com/debate.html

Name calling
Changing the subject
Questioning the motives of the opponent
Sloganeering
Stereotyping
Rejecting facts or logic as opinion

How about you respond to the actual assertion I presented? I challenge your claim that consumer debt is "way down" and savings are "way up" during the Obama administration. I have numbers I can cite, I would like to see yours (show me yours and I'll show you mine!).

I introduced a 30 year timeline as that would coincide with the destruction of the healthy middle class. I have claimed time and time again in this thread that the "pain" of the middle class having a shrinking income level has been masked by debt. It would make sense then that consumer debt grew considerably during the same time frame. That has nothing to do with protecting Obama, and everything to do with the big picture.

There are some who debate in P&N that stick ferociously to their side of the aisle and will defend or attack actions accordingly. I'm trying to talk about the bigger picture, above political parties, that things are heading in the wrong direction with respect to the middle class. This is something that needs to be fixed.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
They have been "profiting" less and less and it is at the tipping point now. The middle class is eroding whether you will admit it or not. Paying a wage is better than mass unemployment, but the continual decline in wages is devastating to the country.

You are looking at wages as a snapshot, look at it on a timeline.

The only problem with your reply is that it has little or nothing to do with my initial points -- those being a) the horrible impact "anti-consumerist protests" have on average working persons in the retail industry, and b) the extensive list of people in the retail cycles who are negatively impacted by such nonsense (lost sales).

The bottom line is that fanatic anti-consumerists (ie. the creator of OWS, Kalle Lasn) don't realize that it's not just "evil credit lenders" who are affected by their childish antics...
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
The only problem with your reply is that it has little or nothing to do with my initial points -- those being a) the horrible impact "anti-consumerist protests" have on average working persons in the retail industry, and b) the extensive list of people in the retail cycles who are negatively impacted by such nonsense (lost sales).

The bottom line is that fanatic anti-consumerists (ie. the creator of OWS, Kalle Lasn) don't realize that it's not just "evil credit lenders" who are affected by their childish antics...

Forest for the trees...

My reply has everything to do with your point. Occupying a shopping center is dumb, but the notion that ant-consumerism is counter productive because it hurts retail workers is extremely short sighted and misses the big picture.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
I'm glad to see that OWS is going to #Occupy Durban and The 17th Conference of the Parties (COP17) to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC)

http://occupycop17.org/

Not sure who i'd root for in a battle between #Occupy and the UNFCCC, probably #Occupy.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Forest for the trees...

My reply has everything to do with your point. Occupying a shopping center is dumb, but the notion that ant-consumerism is counter productive because it hurts retail workers is extremely short sighted and misses the big picture.
I'm positive those workers feel differently.

Your statements sound an awful lot like "you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette," as though the low-level workers are expendable? For the greater good (aka "bigger picture"), right?
 

airdata

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2010
4,987
0
0

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Tatooed! Seriously? It is no different than what they get at the clubs...just a little stronger.

 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0


Arrested protesters being UV marked after arrest. They're saying they were unable to remove the marking by washing their hands, and that it was in essence tattooed in to their hand.

Inquiries to the police department were not answered.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150964677655543&set=a.10150964676845543.767297.792405542

Posted on the girls facebook page.

Constitution 101... you can't go around tattooing citizens of the united states like cattle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

Keep that up, it's not as it there's anyone taking you seriously at this point.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Constitution 101... you can't go around tattooing citizens of the united states like cattle.

Where in the constitution is the government prohibited from doing so, crybaby? The government has all powers not specifically disallowed in the constitution, crybaby.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Arrested protesters being UV marked after arrest. They're saying they were unable to remove the marking by washing their hands, and that it was in essence tattooed in to their hand.

Inquiries to the police department were not answered.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150964677655543&set=a.10150964676845543.767297.792405542

Posted on the girls facebook page.

Constitution 101... you can't go around tattooing citizens of the united states like cattle.

LIES! These protesters don't bathe and wouldn't know how to wash in the first place. And it's likely die that won't wash off to identify them for multiple offenses. Good job police, hit them with multiple counts!
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0

"If you put your abilities toward getting a job rather than saying somebody else is doing something wrong, and maybe there is that in our nation, to spend your time and efforts into something more positive would be a better thing," parent Cory Modersohn said.

Don't be brining all that common sense into a drum circle.

If you can't get people in San Francisco to support your cause, you certainly not going to convince the rest of the country.
 
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airdata

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2010
4,987
0
0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

Keep that up, it's not as it there's anyone taking you seriously at this point.

I don't follow anything you just said. I just presented an event that happened in the #occupy movement.

Rather then comment on what I posted, or anything like a normal person, you decide to post nonsense.

If people don't take a factual post seriously how do you think they take your posts that have no content and nothing to do with the thread or the topic at hand?

Where in the constitution is the government prohibited from doing so, crybaby? The government has all powers not specifically disallowed in the constitution, crybaby.

Nice signature, chump. Learn to use context. If it's legal to go around tattooing people without their consent, I'll gladly sent you a cookie. But yeah... Post #2 not addressing my post, only attempting to nit pick or change the subject.

LIES! .... rest of post removed to save space.

And... post # 3 that directly references my post without actually discussing what I posted. This is why P&N is a mess. You post some facts or something serious and this is what you get for replies.

name call
change subject
avoid agreeing with something because you're against the group of people it's happening to... yeah, you guys are real winners.
 
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IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,961
140
106
I hear you's guys will have Barney Frank behind you on ows!! soon!!!
 
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monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
I don't know how i missed this. It seems #Occupy London has been ........well here:

"In a letter to a corporation official, Cottam wrote: "Desecration: graffiti have been scratched and painted on to the great west doors of the cathedral, the chapter house door and most notably a sacrilegious message painted on to the restored pillars of the west portico.

"Human defecation has occurred in the west portico entrance and inside the cathedral on several occasions. Noisy interruption has occurred to spoken and sung Christian services, after repeated requests for quiet. Foul language has frequently been directed at cathedral staff. Noise has frequently carried into the cathedral to the extent that services have been difficult to sustain in any meaningful way."

Cottam added that alcohol "and other stimulants" appeared to "fuel the noise levels day and night". "

What a bunch of sweethearts, i can't see how anyone can't be supporting #Occupy since they're such great people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/21/occupy-london-camp-eviction-bid
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
I don't follow anything you just said. I just presented an event that happened in the #occupy movement.

Rather then comment on what I posted, or anything like a normal person, you decide to post nonsense.

I think you might have repressed your asinine commentary about cops "tattooing" people and that sad attempt at questioning constitutionality of tracking arrested people.
 

airdata

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2010
4,987
0
0
I think you might have repressed your asinine commentary about cops "tattooing" people and that sad attempt at questioning constitutionality of tracking arrested people.

Are you a police officer, and do you prefer their exploits remain secret so as not to be criticized? Otherwise, why so serious? I don't recall having previous interactions with you and yet here you are unable to have a civil discussion...

Do you think it's appropriate to mark people without their consent? What has that got to do with whatever trumped up or exaggerated charges they were being arrested for?
 

airdata

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2010
4,987
0
0
They wrote on my hand with a permanent marker and then after I felt something pointy and metallic scraping across my skin. I immediately asked "What are you doing" and they simply said we wrote on you with a pen and showed me a bunch of various pens in her hand.

What ever ink that is in there is irritating my skin slightly and its a very terrible feeling that they put a substance in my body with out my consent and then later lied about it. This is a semi permanent alteration they did to me, if I go anywhere now with a black light this will show!

Here are excerpts from the girls face book description of the photo.

Also :

I called the SPVM today and after being on hold for over 10 minutes I explained what happened to me to the officer on the line.
...
I asked if it was possible to speak to some one who might know more and he said that there was no one ... he then said he needed to answer the other line and hung up ...... WTF
 

airdata

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2010
4,987
0
0
You never proved they did. No cookie for you!
I'm just posting something I found online.

You can feel free to click the link and then know exactly how much I do, and even contribute to talking about the post.

So far nobody has shown they're capable of doing that.


Watch this.

911 was a conspiracy.
 
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