#OccupyWallstreet

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michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
Well, what they're saying makes sense (protection for the middle class), it's just that their methods are foolish. What does wall street have to do with legislation? Go occupy D.C.

Of course it's going to be demonized. Big rich goons don't want to give up their spot. I know I don't.


not hard to demonize demons
 

Axon

Platinum Member
Sep 25, 2003
2,541
1
76
not hard to demonize demons

I guess? I mean, anything that shines a light on the good ol' boy clubs rubbing elbows and taking advantage of a relatively crooked system shouldn't be met with such opposition, but it is. I mean, it irritates me when Bank of America raises bank fees/issues fees to use your debit card but then hands out $11 million worth of bonuses to its exec staff, but I suppose everyone is cool with that.

Don't draw a party line on this. We're all being taken.
 
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Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
I mean, it irritates me when Bank of America raises bank fees/issues fees to use your debit card but then hands out $11 million worth of bonuses to its exec staff, but I suppose everyone is cool with that.

Does it bother you that Netflix handed out bonuses after jacking up subscription rates?

A company with a popular product increases prices, makes more money, and pays bonuses. What's the issue?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
To all the commies/hippies whining about banks, why don't you go get a job at a bank? My brother in law is a VP at morgan stanley and he makes SERIOUS money. Of course he had to get a degree in international tax law, but you can as well.

This is America, where anybody can become wealthy if they try hard enough and don't make stupid decisions.

And stop trying to say this has nothing to do with political party - the entire thing reads like a progressive democrats wet dream. The protesters are Obama's useful idiots.
 

Axon

Platinum Member
Sep 25, 2003
2,541
1
76
Does it bother you that Netflix handed out bonuses after jacking up subscription rates?

A company with a popular product increases prices, makes more money, and pays bonuses. What's the issue?

It's far from that cut and dry. But to address your specific point - what bothers me is the claim that the reason for doing so is because revenue is declining, which is what Netflix said, after all. Granted, this is tied to our insane system of quarterly statements and obsession with corporate growth, but it's still BS.

I was a corporate attorney for many years, and I've seen corporate books and drafted executive compensation contracts. The books are fudged (there are always three methods of accounting - a federal, a state, and the more favorable one that justifies moves like the one you've suggested) and executive contracts are laughable. Their bonuses and salaries never go down, no matter what happens in terms of performance. Standard language.

Did a little work for Goldman Sachs, for example. On their quantitative easing front. Interesting stuff, selling inflated treasury bonds for Goldman Sachs to the Fed. Sure brought them in some nice cheddar, though.

So, tldr: I'm fine with corporate success, just not with the egregious behavior that goes on. Same thing with Unions. Love them until they start becoming counter productive. Oh, and don't be a mark.
 
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sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,584
2,819
136
What do you suggest then?

I mean, personally, maybe raising the incomes for those key positions would do the trick, but just allowing them to go to work for the same companies they are supposed to be regulating is NOT working.

I don't think the SEC giving special preferences to only certain companies is the problem here, but the fact that they ignore the problems in the entire industry.

Think about this for a second: the problem is that the regulators "ignore the problems in the entire industry". The proposed solution is to prevent the regulators from seeking future employment in the industry.

There is no link between the problem and the proposed solution. There is no evidence that regulators habitually and conspiratorially fail to perform their duties because some majority or plurality anticipate cushy industry jobs later in life. If anything, regulators are ineffective because industries either purchase legislation tying their hands or through massive litigation efforts.

The proposed solution would be like saying that municipal police departments are not doing a good job of stopping domestic violence so all police should be banned from getting married, since some day they might be the perpetrators of domestic violence themselves and obviously their inability to stop it now is some long-term conspiracy to enable their future domestic violence opportunities.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
More herping and derping from the communist protesters. A few tea party patriots show up with support for capitalism. Such peaceful protesters.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/tea-partiers-invade-occupy-d-c-protest-and-this-is-the-video/

As you can imagine, the results are quite hilarious, as the Tea Party counter-protesters state their love for capitalism, holding signs that read, “Taxed Enough Already” and “Unions Destroy Jobs,” among others. The patriotic young men, who are predictably met with anger, hand out Constitutions to the “Occupiers,” while defending capitalism (Meredith Jessup covered this on the blog as well).

In the video, you’ll hear an Occupy D.C. protester call one of the Tea Partiers an “idiot.“ Another man calls one of the supporters of capitalism a ”candy a**.” And yet another individual who is visibly agitated says, “I‘m gonna turn away because I don’t turn the other cheek. You push me and you’re gonna have a problem.”
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
More herping and derping from the communist protesters. A few tea party patriots show up with support for capitalism. Such peaceful protesters.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/tea-partiers-invade-occupy-d-c-protest-and-this-is-the-video/

The TP'ers handed out copies of the Constitution while supporting Corporations.

Maybe they should read some Jefferson:
I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
- Thomas Jefferson
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
106
The problem is the lack of leadership and a simple understandable message for the idiotic masses.

Just look at the tea party
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
106
That is my point, they need leadership and a simple message for the idiotic masses. Just like the tea party.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Lots of people who grew up under Communism are now rabid Conservatives, and some are even espousing outright far-right ideologies. I see many of them. They're unbalanced. Sad, really.
One would hope that EVERYONE who grew up under Communism would now be a rabid conservative. Unfortunately there are always those who are fundamentally useless to anyone beyond themselves. For those people, Communism with its rigid state determination of economic success and failure remains an attractive choice.

If one is completely devoid of any skills or work ethic useful in a capitalistic society, and also unable or unwilling to develop such skills or ethic, then the best one can hope for is a government who treats all the masses the same. One wouldn't have any more and would probably have even less, but at least one would have a lot of equally miserable company - and with mindless rigid party loyalty could even hope to one day be a mid level party lackey.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Trying to get tax rates raised to levels that are still significantly lower than the 1950s is not "advocating Communism" any more than trying to get taxes lowered is "advocating corporate oligarchy." That's ridiculous rhetoric and it makes you sound like a fool when you say it.

The biggest problem I have with these protests is that there is no clear goal; it's just a bunch of people camping out and causing a disturbance. It's one thing to have a clear message you are trying to advocate, but most of these people are simply stammering like Frankenstein "corporations BAD" while they obstruct traffic. That's not a message, it's obnoxious and dangerous. They need someone to step in and actually organize them, but the Type A personalities that could do that are all the people who still have jobs and can't afford to camp out for days on end.
 

orbster556

Senior member
Dec 14, 2005
228
0
71
Trying to get tax rates raised to levels that are still significantly lower than the 1950s

I believe this is a common misconception that has been propagated, in part, through use of slightly misleading information. Specifically, it is true that under the Eisenhower administration the highest marginal tax bracket was 90%. This, however, deserves two qualifiers: 1) the income threshold for the highest bracket was anything in excess of 400k (the current IRC schedule uses 250k as the threshold); 2) If you adjust the 400k for inflation and the like, it is roughly 3.2-3.4m in 2011 dollars.

Obviously, there is a huge difference between having the highest marginal rate kick-in at 250k and at 3.4m. Moreover, it should be noted that tax receipts as a percentage of GDP were below the historical average of 18% from 1955-1960 (which constituted a majority of Eisenhower's 8 years)(http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook/current-tax-receipts).

I do agree with your broader point that advocating increased taxation isn't necessarily a call for communism in the strictest sense of the term.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Buddy Roemer backs Occupy Wall Street would he be considered Unamerican too?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20118163-503544.html
A former Louisiana governor intentionally bringing up corruption? Maybe I'll give him a pass and just assume that he's abysmally stupid. Besides, he might have nominally converted to the Republican Party when it became politically necessary, but he's still a Democrat at heart.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Good commentary:

Panic of the Plutocrats
by Paul Krugman
It remains to be seen whether the Occupy Wall Street protests will change America’s direction. Yet the protests have already elicited a remarkably hysterical reaction from Wall Street, the super-rich in general, and politicians and pundits who reliably serve the interests of the wealthiest hundredth of a percent.

And this reaction tells you something important — namely, that the extremists threatening American values are what F.D.R. called “economic royalists,” not the people camping in Zuccotti Park.

Consider first how Republican politicians have portrayed the modest-sized if growing demonstrations, which have involved some confrontations with the police — confrontations that seem to have involved a lot of police overreaction — but nothing one could call a riot. And there has in fact been nothing so far to match the behavior of Tea Party crowds in the summer of 2009.

Nonetheless, Eric Cantor, the House majority leader, has denounced “mobs” and “the pitting of Americans against Americans.” The G.O.P. presidential candidates have weighed in, with Mitt Romney accusing the protesters of waging “class warfare,” while Herman Cain calls them “anti-American.” My favorite, however, is Senator Rand Paul, who for some reason worries that the protesters will start seizing iPads, because they believe rich people don’t deserve to have them.

Michael Bloomberg, New York’s mayor and a financial-industry titan in his own right, was a bit more moderate, but still accused the protesters of trying to “take the jobs away from people working in this city,” a statement that bears no resemblance to the movement’s actual goals.

And if you were listening to talking heads on CNBC, you learned that the protesters “let their freak flags fly,” and are “aligned with Lenin.”

The way to understand all of this is to realize that it’s part of a broader syndrome, in which wealthy Americans who benefit hugely from a system rigged in their favor react with hysteria to anyone who points out just how rigged the system is.

Last year, you may recall, a number of financial-industry barons went wild over very mild criticism from President Obama. They denounced Mr. Obama as being almost a socialist for endorsing the so-called Volcker rule, which would simply prohibit banks backed by federal guarantees from engaging in risky speculation. And as for their reaction to proposals to close a loophole that lets some of them pay remarkably low taxes — well, Stephen Schwarzman, chairman of the Blackstone Group, compared it to Hitler’s invasion of Poland.

And then there’s the campaign of character assassination against Elizabeth Warren, the financial reformer now running for the Senate in Massachusetts. Not long ago a YouTube video of Ms. Warren making an eloquent, down-to-earth case for taxes on the rich went viral. Nothing about what she said was radical — it was no more than a modern riff on Oliver Wendell Holmes’s famous dictum that “Taxes are what we pay for civilized society.”

But listening to the reliable defenders of the wealthy, you’d think that Ms. Warren was the second coming of Leon Trotsky. George Will declared that she has a “collectivist agenda,” that she believes that “individualism is a chimera.” And Rush Limbaugh called her “a parasite who hates her host. Willing to destroy the host while she sucks the life out of it.”

What’s going on here? The answer, surely, is that Wall Street’s Masters of the Universe realize, deep down, how morally indefensible their position is. They’re not John Galt; they’re not even Steve Jobs. They’re people who got rich by peddling complex financial schemes that, far from delivering clear benefits to the American people, helped push us into a crisis whose aftereffects continue to blight the lives of tens of millions of their fellow citizens.

Yet they have paid no price. Their institutions were bailed out by taxpayers, with few strings attached. They continue to benefit from explicit and implicit federal guarantees — basically, they’re still in a game of heads they win, tails taxpayers lose. And they benefit from tax loopholes that in many cases have people with multimillion-dollar incomes paying lower rates than middle-class families.

This special treatment can’t bear close scrutiny — and therefore, as they see it, there must be no close scrutiny. Anyone who points out the obvious, no matter how calmly and moderately, must be demonized and driven from the stage. In fact, the more reasonable and moderate a critic sounds, the more urgently he or she must be demonized, hence the frantic sliming of Elizabeth Warren.

So who’s really being un-American here? Not the protesters, who are simply trying to get their voices heard. No, the real extremists here are America’s oligarchs, who want to suppress any criticism of the sources of their wealth.
 
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