#OccupyWallstreet

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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
More communist claptrap. Commies say violence is needed to overthrow the Bourgeois.

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011...lence-will-be-necessary-to-achieve-our-goals/
Occupy L.A. Speaker: “One of the speakers said the solution is nonviolent movement. No, my friend. I’ll give you two examples: French Revolution, and Indian so-called Revolution.

Gandhi, Gandhi today is, with respect to all of you, Gandhi today is a tumor that the ruling class is using constantly to mislead us. French Revolution made fundamental transformation. But it was bloody.

India, the result of Gandhi, is 600 million people living in maximum poverty.

So, ultimately, the bourgeoisie won’t go without violent means. Revolution! Yes, revolution that is led by the working class.

Long live revolution! Long live socialism!”

Crowd: [Cheers.]
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
I find that to be fairly respectable compared to those that just advocate more bitching and moaning in the streets.

Same. Be a revolutionary, not a wannabe. Although I still think they're idiots. Everyone is pointing a finger and forgetting there's 4 pointing back at them. All of the protesters who took loans they couldn't pay back, they're to blame. All the bankers who used shady practices, they're to blame. Our politicians who have sold us out, they're to blame. Voters who vote for those politicians, they're to blame. A total lack of owning up to ones own mistakes is a big reason we're in such a shit position today. Always finger pointing, never problem solving. Stupid Americans.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
I'll give it a go, because up until she announced she was running for Senate I was thinking of writing in Warren on the presidential ballot. She is a true champion of the middle class, herself having originated from there. Her scholastic work centered around the middle class and she has a deep understanding of the changes that have taken place over the last few decades that have worked to erode the middle class. Her "vision" is a strong middle class.

Her vision of the world is one in which the government not only protects individuals from unscrupulous behavior of other market participants but also one one in which the government protects the individual from their own cognitive shortcomings and biases.

That is a standard rallying cry against those that hold up government as the last and only hope an individual has to stand up to the power of mega corporations. It is also the same silly argument that spidey uses against affirmative action. Just because you work to undo the intentional work by large corporations to restrict information and choice by consumers does not mean you think consumers are stupid. It is just a recognition that the corporations have blown past any ethical boundaries (yes I know corporations only have a ethical guide towards making money, but they are "people" right?) and pushing right along the edge of any legal boundaries to swindle money. There is a difference between making money and earning money you know.

As to the latter, leaving aside my general unease with the government assuming a paternalistic role in the lives of individuals, I think the principal problem with such schemes is that they often produce unintended consequences. Take, for example, the CARD Act's prohibition on credit card issuers from raising interest rates. Although this is great for the person whose rates would have been raised, the flat prohibition overlooks that the extension of credit -- especially unsecured credit -- is risky and interest rates are a principal means by which creditor can accurately price the risk posed by his individuals debtors. Denying the creditor the means to accurately price risk means that the cost of the increased credit risk are passed on to: a) existing customers (through annual fees or the like); b) new customers (who find it harder to get a credit card or pay higher interest rate generally).

I think you should learn what the CARD Act actually entails.

http://www.consumerfinance.gov/credit-cards/credit-card-act/feb2011-factsheet/

First the Act prevents raising interest rates arbitrarily. It does not prevent raising interest rates.

Ill repeat, it does not prevent raising interest rates.

From there I don't know if the rest of your argument is worth debating since it pretty much hinges on that important statement but I'll try even if it is just a waste of time. Companies can price in risk and raise rates if the cardholder shows risky behavior. The amount that the companies were willing to lend at a given rate (say a $5000 limit at 12&#37 is now set in stone so they can't take that loan and reprice it at 20% after you have charged it up. Any interest rate hike will only apply to new balances. But that is okay because the company has already (supposedly) priced in the risk of the limit and rate. A home loan or car loan doesn't fluctuate on a whim, and certainly does not do so arbitrarily.

Now you have to be pretty clueless about finance to not know that credit card companies worked on teaser rates to lock in debt then would jack the interest because they could. If a consumer was at or near their limit they would have little recourse to balance transfer to a better rate because other issuers wouldn't open up new lines with high utilization. So right as someone hits a rough spot in their life is when they would bring the hammer down and push the rates up so that they can push the balance to overlimit (and the fee included) which coupled with the new higher rate pushes up the monthly minimum to beyond what can be paid (and the late fee included). After interest, late fees, and overlimit fees are priced in; by the time a card company sells off bad debt at a percentage of the "value" the principal amount has likely been paid. They don't really lose money on many defaults, they price the risk just right so they won't. Which is to say they don't actually carry much risk even though they are pricing it in.

The same can be said for the crackdown on payday lenders: yes, they charge high rates of interest but they provide credit that people need. Would it be better that people: a) Don't get money they have a pressing need for; b) worse still, turn to loan sharks or criminal organizations?

What exactly is the difference between a payday lender and a criminal organization?

In effect, some of the reforms she advances -- mostly those related to increased disclosure -- I support. I reject, however, her more expansive and intrusive reforms not only because they stifle individual liberty but, more importantly, they raise costs and will likely have the unintended consequence of driving the most vulnerable members of society out of the financial services sector and into the underground entirely. This paper (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1649647) does a good job highlighting some of the unintended consequences associated with increased consumer protection.

One of the points of the paper was that "financial innovation" will find loopholes and exploit the regulation. So the problem is that the reforms, according to the paper, are not expansive or intrusive enough to effectively regulate the market. There is very little substance in the paper about raised costs though. Regulation does cost money, but it undoubtedly is cheaper than mega corporations siphoning money from the middle class.

But if your point is that any regulation will need to be revised as market conditions change, then I wholeheartedly agree with you.


Here are my problems with her speech:

1) Fire, police and the like are paid for by the states so it's misleading to suggest that the factory-owners federal tax dollars are used to protect the factory from roaming bands of ruffians.

I can only assume that this is the video that we are talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htX2usfqMEs

In the clip she talks of the factory owner utilizing roads and educated workers which come from federal funds. Police are also partially federally funded. If you recall, Clinton passed a bill to put 100,000 more cops on the street, provided by $200M in federal grant money.

Aside from the fact that federal funds are indeed used for some of the things she listed off, she was talking in general terms that taxation is used for societal benefit. She wasn't strictly limiting her argument to federal taxation, so I have no idea why you choose to limit what she said to that. Even then you are still incorrect.

2) Given the progressive nature of the US tax code, nearly 47% of Americans don't pay any federal income tax. Thus, her suggesting that the 'rest of us' benefit the factory owner by paying taxes for the roads and other infrastructure is slightly disingenuous (unless she is tacitly endorsing expanding the tax base which is the only scenario under which her proposition would be true). Moreover, the CBO indicates that in 2007 -- the latest year for which figures were available -- the top 1% of earners paid 28% of all tax collected by the federal government (income, payroll and the like). I think it strange to imply that the rich aren't paying their fair share when they pay a higher proportion of overall revenue collected by the federal government (the 28%) and also pay a higher average rate for income tax purposes (23.3%) than those making less than 50k (7.2%) or those making 50-100k (8.9%).

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/t...-class-warfare---the-poor-s-free-ride-is-over

If you are trying to look at taxes paid you should also be honest and show how much earnings and/or wealth those groups have. Anything else is just a talking point without substance.

15% of the nation is now in poverty, so I'm not sure why you would expect them to pay income tax. 25% of the nation pays no income tax because their income is limited to tax free retirement income. Collectively that makes up 40% of the population that doesn't pay income tax. The remaining 7% are likely mostly lower middle class that benefit from the Earned Income Credit. If you "fix" the problem of federal income tax receipts you will only move that number slightly. As in 7%.

Of course, that only includes federal income tax. It doesn't begin to touch on all federal taxes paid, much less any state or local taxes.

3) She overlooks that the efforts of the factory owner does not only benefit the factory but also enriches the lives of 'ordinary' people in that we have the opportunity to purchase the products the factory owner is producing. Or, for an example befitting this forum, Sergey Brin and Larry Page have made a lot of money from their creation of Google; furthermore, no one is suggesting that taxes shouldn't be imposed on them for their earnings. To the average person, however, the principal benefit of Google's creation is not that it provided tax revenues for the government but that it created Google.

Eh? Where does she make any sort of assertion that leads you to believe that she does not understand that employers are good for the middle class? That wasn't the point of her speech so why bring it up? Why does she overlook the AIDS problem in Africa? She didn't touch on it in her 2 minute speech. She did little to ease any tension I have of her concern over middle east instability! Why does she overlook that?

Unless you actually have something from her where she makes it clear that entrepreneurs do nothing for ordinary people you are just making a pitiful strawman argument in response to things she "overlooked" during a 2 minute video clip.

That's really the argument in a nutshell. Warren endorses a vision of the world in which the existence of private enterprise is tolerated because it provides money for the government to operate. Critically, however, she implies that government is the entity that is most likely to improve the lot of the ordinary individual. I, however, think that private enterprise enriches the lives of individuals far more than any bureaucrat could hope to and that limiting government intervention will not only increase each individual's liberty but will improve the lot of the ordinary individual.

She has never claimed any of that tripe. You veer between reading between the lines and filling in the gaps to push your fears onto her. In simplistic capitalist terms, a buyer and seller meet in the middle where everything is balanced. When you have huge multinational corporations with tens of thousands of workers and billions in revenue, it throws that balance off. An individual cannot fairly compete with that. The only recourse an individual has is through the government, as corrupted as it may be.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,932
3
81
More communist claptrap. Commies say violence is needed to overthrow the Bourgeois.

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011...lence-will-be-necessary-to-achieve-our-goals/

But since it’s the Occupy Wall Street movement, darlings of the media and Democratic politicians, they get a pass.

What? media darlings.......the same media that largely ignored it for weeks and weeks until it couldn't any longer and consistently only shows the most ignorant of attendees.


righhhhhhhhhhhhht.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
What? media darlings.......the same media that largely ignored it for weeks and weeks until it couldn't any longer and consistently only shows the most ignorant of attendees.


righhhhhhhhhhhhht.
Yeah, 95% of them are giving the rest a bad name!
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Yeah, 95% of them are giving the rest a bad name!

But I thought they were just like the tea party and this crossed all political boundaries?

Except tea party doesn't take dumps on police cars, leave the please utterly trashed and constantly getting arrested.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,932
3
81
But I thought they were just like the tea party and this crossed all political boundaries?

Except tea party doesn't take dumps on police cars, leave the please utterly trashed and constantly getting arrested.

you ever been to NYC spidey?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,710
50,999
136
you ever been to NYC spidey?

For his sake I hope not, it's like the pulsating heart of evil liberalism! If he has been, I can see him being one of the people who rides around in the open air buses thinking they are 'seeing' the city.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,932
3
81
Yes, I'll never forget the stench.

Then you should know there is an abundance of bat shit crazy people willing to drop a deuce on a car on just about every block, the city is always filthy and smelly and the crazies are always getting arrested.

Any gathering of people in NYC is bound to attract a higher concentration on the poo slinging crazies.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
81
Then you should know there is an abundance of bat shit crazy people willing to drop a deuce on a car on just about every block, the city is always filthy and smelly and the crazies are always getting arrested.

Any gathering of people in NYC is bound to attract a higher concentration on the poo slinging crazies.

LMAO :biggrin:
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
What? media darlings.......the same media that largely ignored it for weeks and weeks until it couldn't any longer and consistently only shows the most ignorant of attendees.


righhhhhhhhhhhhht.

MSNBC and Lawrence O'Donnell were on it from the start. He was devoting about half his show to it when there were only about 100 people out there.

The media didn't ignore it.

Fern
 

tokie

Golden Member
Jun 1, 2006
1,491
0
0
Apparently the protests will spread to Vancouver. They are now endorsed by the largest provincial union.

How nice, the ultimate insider club is supporting a movement to stop people being insiders. Yet a word won't be spoken about union exclusion.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Then you should know there is an abundance of bat shit crazy people willing to drop a deuce on a car on just about every block, the city is always filthy and smelly and the crazies are always getting arrested.

Any gathering of people in NYC is bound to attract a higher concentration on the poo slinging crazies.

Any gathering of people except for the Tea Party, apparently.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Apparently the protests will spread to Vancouver. They are now endorsed by the largest provincial union.

How nice, the ultimate insider club is supporting a movement to stop people being insiders. Yet a word won't be spoken about union exclusion.

Wow, an insane person.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106

I don't give a damn what that author claims. I saw O'Donnell with my own g@d d@mn eyes on TV hyping it up back when it started.

As to the graph, until it grew in numbers and something started (like bridge arrests) what the heck was there to cover? Not a helluva lot. Because I watch MSNBC, CNN and Fox I know for a fact it was covered early on, some channels giving it more time than others. If it had never been covered it would still likely be same 60-100 people hanging out there. IMO, news coverage has publicized it and caused/allowed it to grow.

Fern
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I don't give a damn what that author claims. I saw O'Donnell with my own g@d d@mn eyes on TV hyping it up back when it started.

As to the graph, until it grew in numbers and something started (like bridge arrests) what the heck was there to cover? Not a helluva lot. Because I watch MSNBC, CNN and Fox I know for a fact it was covered early on, some channels giving it more time than others. If it had never been covered it would still likely be same 60-100 people hanging out there. IMO, news coverage has publicized it and caused/allowed it to grow.

Fern
Now who are you going to believe, a doctrinaire progressive like Nate Silver or your own lying eyes?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,710
50,999
136
I don't give a damn what that author claims. I saw O'Donnell with my own g@d d@mn eyes on TV hyping it up back when it started.

As to the graph, until it grew in numbers and something started (like bridge arrests) what the heck was there to cover? Not a helluva lot. Because I watch MSNBC, CNN and Fox I know for a fact it was covered early on, some channels giving it more time than others. If it had never been covered it would still likely be same 60-100 people hanging out there. IMO, news coverage has publicized it and caused/allowed it to grow.

Fern

Whatever you need to tell yourself, man.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
fivethirtyeight is pretty legit. That guy knows what he is doing. Maybe odonnel is the slight bump on the 19th. It would be dumb to live in the microcosm of " I saw it with my own eyes"
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Wow, an insane person.

Craig, you have no experience with unions so shut the fuck up. I have first hand experience with the bullshit politics and cronyism that goes on just like any where else. Know why all the dock workers and their families are pissed? Because it's no longer an exclusive club.

There was coverage you morons, how the fuck do you think we have been talking about it for so long? I remember watching the live video feeds from the people protesting the day they kicked it off. Next morning I googled occupywallstreet and there was very little information. Over the next few days more and more started flooding and all we heard was "MAINSTREAM MEDIA ISN'T GIVING THEM COVERAGE!!!" except they were, in passing because the fucking movement hadn't done shit to deserve attention yet. It wasn't a story.
 
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HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
There was coverage you morons, how the fuck do you think we have been talking about it for so long? I remember watching the live video feeds from the people protesting the day they kicked it off.

The graph shows there was coverage. Very little coverage.

Most of the video and pictures we saw early on was from youtube and blogs, it wasn't in the mainstream media other than blurbs.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
fivethirtyeight is pretty legit. That guy knows what he is doing. Maybe odonnel is the slight bump on the 19th. It would be dumb to live in the microcosm of " I saw it with my own eyes"

There's absolutely nothing wrong with "I saw it with my own eyes". Heck, the chart more supports my contention that anything else. It shows coverage exists from the start, although not much time was devoted it. If you saw the coverage as I did you'd understand there was not much there to show for more than a few moments (excepting O'Donnell who I mention later). There were about 60-100 people aimlessly milling about. How fugging long can you cover that?

What the heck is there to cover other than showing shots of the (small and boring) scene that looked like nothing but a crowded bus stop and mentioning that it was occurring? Not a G** D*** thing. There have been plenty of other rallies with 60-100 people that never even get mentioned. Period. Whining about non-coverage is assinine and inaccurate.

Now O'Donnell had jack-all to show, same as the others, but he made up for this by having the camera on himself and editorializing about the protest ad nauseum. He was all over it well before the bridge arrests (which was finally some sort of news).

Fern
 
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