#OccupyWallstreet

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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
There's absolutely nothing wrong with "I saw it with my own eyes". Heck, the chart more supports my contention that anything else. It shows coverage exists from the start, although not much time was devoted it. If you saw the coverage as I did you'd understand there was not much there to show for more than a few moments (excepting O'Donnell who I mention later). There were about 60-100 people aimlessly milling about. How fugging long can you cover that?

What the heck is there to cover other than showing shots of the (small and boring) scene that like nothing but a crowded bus stop and mentioning that it was occurring? Not a G** D*** thing. There have been plenty of other rallies with 60-100 people that never even get mentioned. Period. Whining about non-coverage is assinine and inaccurate.

Now O'Donnell had jack-all to show, same as the others, but he made up for this by having the camera on himself and editorializing about the protest ad nauseum. He was all over it well before the bridge arrests (which was finally some sort of news).

Fern
You miss the point. Everything left wing loons do is important and must be covered at a national level, even if it's only 60 to 100 of them. They're fighting the power, man. They're the American version of the Arab Spring.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
After looking back over those posts where people complain about the lack of news coverage for this (non) event at the beginning of it, I get the strong impression that they're not really complaining about such little 'coverage' for such a (non) event, it's that they're really upset the media didn't freely promote it, advertise it. You guys wanted the media out in front to push it and make this thing happen.

It ain't coverage when you're talking about something before it's even happening. That's just free advertising and promoting an agenda disguised as 'news'.

Fern
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,710
50,999
136
There's absolutely nothing wrong with "I saw it with my own eyes". Heck, the chart more supports my contention that anything else. It shows coverage exists from the start, although not much time was devoted it. If you saw the coverage as I did you'd understand there was not much there to show for more than a few moments (excepting O'Donnell who I mention later). There were about 60-100 people aimlessly milling about. How fugging long can you cover that?

What the heck is there to cover other than showing shots of the (small and boring) scene that looked like nothing but a crowded bus stop and mentioning that it was occurring? Not a G** D*** thing. There have been plenty of other rallies with 60-100 people that never even get mentioned. Period. Whining about non-coverage is assinine and inaccurate.

Now O'Donnell had jack-all to show, same as the others, but he made up for this by having the camera on himself and editorializing about the protest ad nauseum. He was all over it well before the bridge arrests (which was finally some sort of news).

Fern

If you think that chart supports your contention, you need to go back and read it again.

Why do you keep mentioning Lawrence O'Donnell anyway? He's a liberal pundit, of course liberal pundits promote liberal protests. Were you equally shocked that Sean Hannity was so excited about the teabaggers?

Are you trying to say that it got mainstream media coverage because partisan pundits talked about it?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,710
50,999
136
You miss the point. Everything left wing loons do is important and must be covered at a national level, even if it's only 60 to 100 of them. They're fighting the power, man. They're the American version of the Arab Spring.

You miss the point, we were saying it wasn't covered much at all at first by the mainstream media, which is absolutely true, and borne out by the numbers. What you guys might want to take note of though is how I'm not shrieking and whining about a vast right wing media conspiracy against me when the media doesn't cover what I want.

Something to think about.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You miss the point, we were saying it wasn't covered much at all at first by the mainstream media, which is absolutely true, and borne out by the numbers. What you guys might want to take note of though is how I'm not shrieking and whining about a vast right wing media conspiracy against me when the media doesn't cover what I want.

Something to think about.
Point taken.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
The graph shows there was coverage. Very little coverage.

Most of the video and pictures we saw early on was from youtube and blogs, it wasn't in the mainstream media other than blurbs.

What else do you expect? That's how things work. Not a big deal, blurbs, becomes a big deal, they focus on it. I don't understand this non-sense, although I do agree that they're being selective in their coverage of it.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
You miss the point, we were saying it wasn't covered much at all at first by the mainstream media, which is absolutely true, and borne out by the numbers. What you guys might want to take note of though is how I'm not shrieking and whining about a vast right wing media conspiracy against me when the media doesn't cover what I want.

Something to think about.

As Fern stated, the 60 or so protesters didn't warrant any coverage, it was a non event, just it remains today. (Other than helping expose the liberal and democrats agenda, which is good). Huge mistake by dems supporting this.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
After looking back over those posts where people complain about the lack of news coverage for this (non) event at the beginning of it, I get the strong impression that they're not really complaining about such little 'coverage' for such a (non) event, it's that they're really upset the media didn't freely promote it, advertise it. You guys wanted the media out in front to push it and make this thing happen.

It ain't coverage when you're talking about something before it's even happening. That's just free advertising and promoting an agenda disguised as 'news'.

Fern

You're wrong. Here's what people are upset about.

There is a timeless conflict between the 'interests of the people' and the 'interests of the few powerful' that is as old as civilization.

There is some overlap between those interests, and some conflict.

The first thing people are upset about is recognizing that their political system, their democracy, the thing created specifically AGAINST the corrupt elite of the English noble class that held all the power and wealth and were abusive about it, is corrupted by the 'economic royals', as FDR called them, where our elections can usually only be won by people who have the backing of those 'economic royals'.

The second thing they're upset about is that the press - the institution our founding fathers said was so important to liberty when the government is corrupted, so that the people can be informed and oppose the government - is now more than ever in US history, by far, in the hands of a few of our largest corporations - and that its not covering the protests were for the reason of bias to deny people the very power that when they DO protest because the democracy is corrupted, it's widely ignored.

The fact the niche market for 'liberals' covers it doesn't help that much when 80+% of the media does not.

Luckily, the internet helps hugely, and competitive pressures and having to not be too obvious about it can overcome the corporate media's reluctance to cover the issue.

Those are more the concerns, not what you claim.

It's been said that every successful political movement needs its own media, and that's borne out here. That's the role the internet is largely playing, new in our history.

In the past issues 'of the people' would get coverage because the US media ownership was very widely distributed to local publications serving the people. That's changed.
 
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Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
Students/protesters want student loans forgiven.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/44879455


Rose Swidden came to Zuccotti Park in Lower Manhattan from upstate New York, where she is studying agriculture at SUNY Cobleskill. She expects to graduate in May with $35,000 in debt, and doesn't know how she will pay it back.

Protester Angelina Lesniewski graduated from a Massachusetts liberal arts college in May with an English degree. She has no job prospects in her field, and $28,000 in student debt.

How do these students/protesters expect to make a living with those degrees AND those amounts of student loans? Oh, it is always someone else fault. Gotcha.


"We did what we were told to do: go to college, get an education, you'll get a job, you'll get a house, you'll be cool," she said. "And that's what we did. And now here we are done with it—and now what?"

No, Ms.

Going to college and get an education will only increase your chance of getting a decent job, not that you WILL get a decent one for sure. NOTHING in life is guarantee.

Now what? How about get off your butt and work your tail off to get a job? Networking, looking up online, researching, interning, and on and on. Getting a job is a full time job. Hang out at the park will not increase your chance of getting a job.
 
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Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Students/protesters want student loans forgiven.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/44879455






How do these students/protesters expect to make a living with those degrees AND those amounts of student loans? Oh, it is always someone else fault. Gotcha.




No, Ms.

Going to college and get an education will only increase your chance of getting a decent job, not that you WILL get a decent one for sure. NOTHING in life is guarantee.

Now what? How about get off your butt and work your tail off to get a job? Networking, looking up online, researching, interning, and on and on. Getting a job is a full time job. Hang out at the park will not increase your chance of getting a job.

There are still plenty of jobs in the agricultural field, working for a large corporation, a smaller farm, being a consultant, or working for the FDA\USDA.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
"We did what we were told to do: go to college, get an education, you'll get a job, you'll get a house, you'll be cool," she said. "And that's what we did. And now here we are done with it—and now what?"

WTF! Yeah, real world's a bitch, ain't it?
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Am I correct in assuming that "occupy wall street" is about wealthy corporations/people that get away with economic murder while the rest of us pay the piper?
 

Demo24

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
8,356
9
81
"I could have gotten a degree in something practical like psychology, which I find very interesting but I would have been miserable," she said.

So she choose a shit career path and squandered her education and now wants us to pick up the tab for her mistakes? Sure, why don't we forgive deadbeats gambling debts while we're at it. Unbelievable. This whole movement is folly.


Lol, you can't do jack shit with a basic degree in psychology. She'd need a masters, and frequently enough you can get into one of those programs minus a BS in psych.

Bunch of idiots going to too expensive a school, partying to much, and not working toward something worthwhile then wondering what next.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
WTF! Yeah, real world's a bitch, ain't it?

And now what?

Now you work B!tch.

Is that so hard to understand? or do these modern slackers actually belive that if they went to college they would get a diplomia, a house, a bmw, and a 100k/ year for doing nothing?
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
And now what?

Now you work B!tch.

Is that so hard to understand? or do these modern slackers actually belive that if they went to college they would get a diplomia, a house, a bmw, and a 100k/ year for doing nothing?

They fell for the lies not all of us fell for and they're so confused with all the ADD induced media that they don't know they were screwed by their educators and themselves. Who were their educators? lols, the government. You can point the finger in any direction and you end up landing on government, with four pointing back at yourself for not doing anything about it.
 

orbster556

Senior member
Dec 14, 2005
228
0
71
I think you should learn what the CARD Act actually entails.

First the Act prevents raising interest rates arbitrarily. It does not prevent raising interest rates.

Ill repeat, it does not prevent raising interest rates.

I've read the legislation (PL 111-24) and it contains a categorical prohibition on increases for annual percentage rates, fees, or finance charges applicable to any outstanding balance subject to four narrow exceptions. Critically, none of the exceptions deals with a credit card issuer responding to a change in a borrower's riskiness. Taking your example, suppose Issuer gives a card to X with a 5k limit and 12% interest rate. This rate is calculated on Issuer's assessment of X's riskiness at the time Issuer opens the account with X. Further suppose that a few months pass (during which time X has amassed a 3k balance) and X starts burning through cash. From the standpoint of the issuer, lending to X has become a lot more riskier. I think in the context of unsecured debt it is important that he Issuer have the opportunity to re-price the risk by changing rates; whereas a secured creditor can include covenants and other measures designed to control the debtor and prevent that debtor from rapidly expanding their debt, this option is not available to the unsecured lender and re-pricing the risk is really the only tool available to the unsecured lender. When you take away this tool, you're really just shifting the costs associated with the borrower's increased riskiness to the lender's other borrowers or new customers (who won't get access in the first place).

I'm much more sympathetic to limiting or controlling punitive penalty fees and the like -- as the predatory aspect is much more salient -- but, unless my skills of statutory interpretation have completely failed me I do think that the CARD Act prohibits a lender from re-pricing risk.

Just because you work to undo the intentional work by large corporations to restrict information and choice by consumers does not mean you think consumers are stupid.

My comments were more based on some of articles Ms. Warren has written along with other some others -- including the article to which I linked -- on the subject of consumer protection.

It is not that I don't deny that people might have limitations or biases that militate against their best interests and that unscrupulous market participants may leverage these shortcomings for their own benefit. My problem with the government assuming such a paternalistic role is that it reduces individual liberty and has the real danger of creating unintended consequences. For what it's worth, I am not entirely opposed to libertarian paternalism model advanced by Cass Sunstein and think it might offer a somewhat workable middle ground.

What exactly is the difference between a payday lender and a criminal organization?

To be sure, there are some similarities. All things being equal, however, if I were in a situation where I needed to turn to turn to such a lender, I would much rather get a loan from CitiFinancial rather than my local loan shark. Sure, I'm going to get ripped off either way but at least with CitiFinancial I can be relatively sure my kneecaps will remain intact in the event I fail to repay the loan.

In the clip she talks of the factory owner utilizing roads and educated workers which come from federal funds. Police are also partially federally funded. If you recall, Clinton passed a bill to put 100,000 more cops on the street, provided by $200M in federal grant money.

Although I would still contend that the vast majority of funding for fire/police doesn't come from the federal level, I'll concede I was wrong -- my apologies.


If you are trying to look at taxes paid you should also be honest and show how much earnings and/or wealth those groups have. Anything else is just a talking point without substance.

I think this might be a valid criticism if I were suggesting that the other 47% ought to pay income taxes. The point I was trying to make, however, is more modest. Specifically, I was simply pointing out that 'the rest of us' referenced by Ms. Warren couldn't be that large a group given the aforementioned numbers. I wasn't arguing one way or the other as to whether the other 47% ought to pay income taxes.

Unless you actually have something from her where she makes it clear that entrepreneurs do nothing for ordinary people you are just making a pitiful strawman argument in response to things she "overlooked" during a 2 minute video clip.

The concern I had with her speech is that her focus seemed solely on suggesting that the wealthy currently do not pay their 'fair share' in taxes and that they had an obligation to do so. I was raising the point about ancillary benefits accruing to ordinary people because I am of the opinion that the knock-on effects originating from economic activity are far greater than any benefit afforded by government programs or the like (especially when so much federal money is either not spent on the beneficial programs she mentions or is spent poorly (as in the case of education spending). I understand that the nature of her speech might have prevented her from providing a full explication of the subject but my reaction was informed both by the content of her speech along with some of her other speeches, testimonies and articles.

Also, to be clear, it's not that I doubt Ms. Warren's sincerity or the conviction with which she pursues her ideals, viz. I don't think she is some crazy communist intent on bringing down the Republic. Rather I think she often underestimates -- or even ignores -- the costs associated with government intervention and she is also blind to the unintended consequences that result from government regulation. The harm the minimum wage does to minorities and the less-well educated springs to mind immediately. To quote Hayek, "s there a greater tragedy imaginable than that, in our endeavor consciously to shape our future in accordance with high ideals, we should in fact unwittingly produce the very opposite of what we have been striving for?".

In simplistic capitalist terms, a buyer and seller meet in the middle where everything is balanced. When you have huge multinational corporations with tens of thousands of workers and billions in revenue, it throws that balance off. An individual cannot fairly compete with that. The only recourse an individual has is through the government, as corrupted as it may be.

This would be the case where there is only one supplier of goods and the consumer must either forgo purchasing the product offered by the multinational or accede entirely to the multinational's terms. I would contend, however, that where there is competition between firms -- even large multinationals -- then there still exists the conditions necessary for a healthy market, viz. if multinational 1 does not present fair terms to the consumer they can turn to multinational 2; if both 1 and 2 collude to frustrate the consumer then all is not lost because, assuming no technical barriers to entry, upstart X can enter the fray and offer the same goods and services offered by 1 and 2 but at more reasonable terms. At one point in time Kodak was a huge multinational but they failed to continually meet the demands of their customers and now they are an also-ran.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
And now what?

Now you work B!tch.

Is that so hard to understand? or do these modern slackers actually belive that if they went to college they would get a diplomia, a house, a bmw, and a 100k/ year for doing nothing?

Actually, they just thought they'd get a decent paying job, playing by the rules. It's kinda like after jumping though all the hoops, saying and doing all the right things, Capitalism dumped 'em at the altar... ran off with a Chinese bimbo...
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
I've read the legislation (PL 111-24) and it contains a categorical prohibition on increases for annual percentage rates, fees, or finance charges applicable to any outstanding balance subject to four narrow exceptions. Critically, none of the exceptions deals with a credit card issuer responding to a change in a borrower's riskiness. Taking your example, suppose Issuer gives a card to X with a 5k limit and 12% interest rate. This rate is calculated on Issuer's assessment of X's riskiness at the time Issuer opens the account with X. Further suppose that a few months pass (during which time X has amassed a 3k balance) and X starts burning through cash. From the standpoint of the issuer, lending to X has become a lot more riskier. I think in the context of unsecured debt it is important that he Issuer have the opportunity to re-price the risk by changing rates; whereas a secured creditor can include covenants and other measures designed to control the debtor and prevent that debtor from rapidly expanding their debt, this option is not available to the unsecured lender and re-pricing the risk is really the only tool available to the unsecured lender. When you take away this tool, you're really just shifting the costs associated with the borrower's increased riskiness to the lender's other borrowers or new customers (who won't get access in the first place).

So, uhh, what you're saying is that the card issuer's original offer of a $5K credit limit at 12% was an insincere bait & switch, right? If they offer you a certain limit and you get 60% of the way there that you're now higher risk & they should be allowed to charge higher interest on existing balance?

Nice rhetorical pirouette on the head of a pin, I'll give you that...
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Actually, they just thought they'd get a decent paying job, playing by the rules. It's kinda like after jumping though all the hoops, saying and doing all the right things, Capitalism dumped 'em at the altar... ran off with a Chinese bimbo...

More like they got tricked by the liberal establishment. Liberals and their liberal universities touted the value of a College degree. They tricked the students to pay 50k a year to attend their private liberal universities. Students had unrealistic expectations fed to them by the liberal universities, and are now stuck without a job and in piles of debt.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
More like they got tricked by the liberal establishment. Liberals and their liberal universities touted the value of a College degree. They tricked the students to pay 50k a year to attend their private liberal universities. Students had unrealistic expectations fed to them by the liberal universities, and are now stuck without a job and in piles of debt.

Yeh, and they tricked all the people who graduated from high school, or went to community college, state colleges & trade schools, too... and the 5% of the workforce who were formerly employed just turned shiftless & lazy overnight, too... or decided that they'd rather try to support middle class bills on a part time working class income...

It's all a Libruhl conspiracy, I'm sure.

And it's all Obama's fault- everything.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Yeh, and they tricked all the people who graduated from high school, or went to community college, state colleges & trade schools, too... and the 5% of the workforce who were formerly employed just turned shiftless & lazy overnight, too... or decided that they'd rather try to support middle class bills on a part time working class income...

It's all a Libruhl conspiracy, I'm sure.

And it's all Obama's fault- everything.

there are jobs out there, some not so well paying ones as well, but if you're not doing them I'm not listening to you bitch about them because then you're just a fucking baby who wants to be coddled. so yea WAAH to them, fucking suck it up and work the "shitty" job and then maybe some of us will listen.
 
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