#OccupyWallstreet

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OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
Are people confusing poor choices and bad judgement for "injustices"?

Anyway, still looking for more info on OWS from their supporters. So far all I'm getting is general anger over the direction of the country. But I don't need them to know that. Heck, that's come up in every poll for the longest time now. Well, I'm also getting that in some vague way it's Wall Street's fault.

Fern

The economic collapse can almost entirely be blamed on Wall Street's greed. They knew what they were doing when they started handing out shitty mortgages and packaging them up into derivatives and then secretly betting against them. It was all done to maximize the amount of $$$ lining their greedy little pockets. The injustice is that none of these people have been prosecuted, in fact they've been bailed out by the American tax payers.

Are you seriously this dense? The is a hell of a lot more than just poor choices and bad judgement. This is criminal.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136

ComradeBeck

Senior member
Jun 16, 2011
262
0
0
Good find, that wiki sums about about 90% of the boneheads I know.




right-wing authoritarians tend to exhibit cognitive errors and symptoms of faulty reasoning. Specifically, they are more likely to make incorrect inferences from evidence and to hold contradictory ideas that result from compartmentalized thinking. They are also more likely to uncritically accept insufficient evidence that supports their beliefs, and they are less likely to acknowledge their own limitations.


compartmentalized thinking -this is what the right wing media uses to divide these Americans against one another, it's sad too how people fall for such narrowminded thinking so easily.
 
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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Read up-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_authoritarianism

Notice the strong relationship between #2 and many of the postings on this page alone.

Interesting there's no wiki article for "left-wing_authoritarianism" which doesn't make sense because most of the "ideals" I see coming from most of those who identify as "left" are just as authoritarian as those coming from the "right". I'm against all authoritarian practices and ideals.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
The economic collapse can almost entirely be blamed on Wall Street's greed. They knew what they were doing when they started handing out shitty mortgages and packaging them up into derivatives and then secretly betting against them. It was all done to maximize the amount of $$$ lining their greedy little pockets. The injustice is that none of these people have been prosecuted, in fact they've been bailed out by the American tax payers.

Are you seriously this dense? The is a hell of a lot more than just poor choices and bad judgement. This is criminal.

Bullshit. That is fucking bullshit. It's EVERYONES greed that is to blame. Wall Street was greedy, but so were the American people. Taking a loan you cannot afford so you can learn what you want to learn to do what you want to do is GREED. DERPA DER. Don't participate with these banks and do not give them your money, do not give them your debt. Idiots.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Interesting there's no wiki article for "left-wing_authoritarianism" which doesn't make sense because most of the "ideals" I see coming from most of those who identify as "left" are just as authoritarian as those coming from the "right". I'm against all authoritarian practices and ideals.

I'd encourage you to read the whole article.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
I'd encourage you to read the whole article.

I plan on it, I took a moment out of my day to come check the forums. I'll read it in a bit when I get a chance because it's back to work so I can maybe get out on time :|
 

ComradeBeck

Senior member
Jun 16, 2011
262
0
0
Interesting there's no wiki article for "left-wing_authoritarianism" which doesn't make sense because most of the "ideals" I see coming from most of those who identify as "left" are just as authoritarian as those coming from the "right". I'm against all authoritarian practices and ideals.

Right wing authoritarianism is just as much a part of left wing governments as right wing. USSR was a right wing dictatorship under the guise of a "degenerated left wing workers state" for example. Nazi Germany was a right wing authoritarian corporatist (Mussolini coined the term fascist for it) state.

What a country SAYS it is and what it is run by are two totally different things, here in the us we are supposedly a Republic, although really imo we are closer to something like a bought corporate oligarchy -degenerated welfare state. (on the path to fascism)
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Bullshit. That is fucking bullshit. It's EVERYONES greed that is to blame. Wall Street was greedy, but so were the American people. Taking a loan you cannot afford so you can learn what you want to learn to do what you want to do is GREED. DERPA DER. Don't participate with these banks and do not give them your money, do not give them your debt. Idiots.

It was the greed of Wall St that created the systemic risk to our financial system, not the greed of individual consumers. Bankers have a higher level of information, and also a higher fiduciary duty to stockholders & the end purchasers of the financial products they create. Legality aside, those last 2 considerations were tossed to the winds in the run-up to the collapse of the Ownership Society, and we all need to acknowledge that if we're to have any sort of rational discussion at all.

It wasn't that people asking for home loans were any more or less qualified than they ever were, in aggregate, but rather that a lot more loans were extended to people having dubious means to meet the obligations.

It's nearly impossible for most people to not participate in one way or another. If you have a 401K or any sort of pension plan, you participate. If you don't own your home outright, and few do, then you need a mortgage. And even if you rent, the place is probably mortgaged by the landlord. If you have credit cards or bank accounts, you participate. If you don't pay cash for autos, you participate. Unless you're paid in cash, merely cashing your paycheck involves participation. we can redirect our business to local banks & credit unions to some degree, but all of us who aren't totally self sufficient survivalists participate in the banking system.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Right wing authoritarianism is just as much a part of left wing governments as right wing. USSR was a right wing dictatorship under the guise of a "deformed left wing workers state" for example. Nazi Germany was a right wing authoritarian corporatist (Mussolini coined the term fascist for it) state.

What a country SAYS it is and what it is run by are two totally different things, here in the us we are supposedly a Republic, although really we are pretty much a bought corporate oligarchy -deformed welfare state. (on the path to fascism)

Just read most of the article, lols. Now I get why there's no left article lols.

Jhhnn, humans are greedy pieces of shit for the most part. Everyone who took on debt is to blame for giving into the debtors, choices were made. No one has to cave into them. They are pieces of shit though and you won't hear me defend them, I just think people need to accept responsibility for their own actions. Even if those actions resulted in someone else screwing them.
 
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ComradeBeck

Senior member
Jun 16, 2011
262
0
0
Just read most of the article, lols. Now I get why there's no left article lols.

Made perfect sense to me, although if you have a political eduction based off of foxnews the reality learning curve might be a bit much. YMMV
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
They are pieces of shit though and you won't hear me defend them, I just think people need to accept responsibility for their own actions. Even if those actions resulted in someone else screwing them.
well said!
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Made perfect sense to me, although if you have a political eduction based off of foxnews the reality learning curve might be a bit much. YMMV

oh really? "right wing" doesn't mean ANYTHING else? it's never been used as a label for other things? please don't be a fucking moron. I don't have to read up on "right wing authoritarianism" to know authoritarianism is bullshit regardless of it's "type". Fact is you're just an ass because you make nothing but assumptions. Pro-tip, I don't have cable/sat and I'm far more likely to read 100 articles from Al Jazeera than I am to read 1 from Fox News. That just doesn't fly with your view of the world. ZOMG PEOPLE THINK DIFFERENTLY THAN ME! MUST FORCE IDEALS ON THEM! lols.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
oh really? "right wing" doesn't mean ANYTHING else? it's never been used as a label for other things? please don't be a fucking moron. I don't have to read up on "right wing authoritarianism" to know authoritarianism is bullshit regardless of it's "type". Fact is you're just an ass because you make nothing but assumptions. Pro-tip, I don't have cable/sat and I'm far more likely to read 100 articles from Al Jazeera than I am to read 1 from Fox News. That just doesn't fly with your view of the world. ZOMG PEOPLE THINK DIFFERENTLY THAN ME! MUST FORCE IDEALS ON THEM! lols.



The feeling I get from here is if you dont support the OWS 99ers, the OMG you are a brain dead fox news listener. There can be no other explination.

I can think freely, as long as my toughts are excatly inline with what the OWS crowd wants.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Just read most of the article, lols. Now I get why there's no left article lols.

Jhhnn, humans are greedy pieces of shit for the most part. Everyone who took on debt is to blame for giving into the debtors, choices were made. No one has to cave into them. They are pieces of shit though and you won't hear me defend them, I just think people need to accept responsibility for their own actions. Even if those actions resulted in someone else screwing them.

Sigh. You're still only looking at part of the picture, the part you want to see. What you say is true as far as it goes, and borrowers who can't meet their obligations will be dealt with in a variety of ways- foreclosure, short sale, renegotiation, whatever. That's not the point.

We also have investors fleeced in white label MBS transactions, and the still unwinding payouts from the taxpayers in honoring GSE obligations. Of all the players, the only one not taken to account is Wall St- still standing tall, still unencumbered by the sort of rules & regulations that protected us all from this sort of thing years ago, still raking in enormous profit with shady practices. And we have the political party who advocated & enabled their relatively new found freedom resurgent, as if none of that had ever happened, as if the Ownership Society they crowed & clucked so gloatingly over a few years ago weren't an ongoing drag on society, an anchor hung around the country's neck in their pursuit of free market ideology & greater inequality.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The feeling I get from here is if you dont support the OWS 99ers, the OMG you are a brain dead fox news listener. There can be no other explination.

I can think freely, as long as my toughts are excatly inline with what the OWS crowd wants.

Fascinating. It's like watching a blind man fall all over objects in his way, claiming he can see.
 

orbster556

Senior member
Dec 14, 2005
228
0
71
Bankers have a higher level of information, and also a higher fiduciary duty to stockholders & the end purchasers of the financial products they create.

An enhanced duty -- approaching the level of fiduciary -- applies when the banks are acting as brokers for their clients. When they are acting as dealers, however, the counter-parties know that the banks were acting on their behalf and for bank's own benefit. Moreover, broker-dealers are required by SEC regs to disclose this fact -- that they are acting as a dealer in pursuit of their own interest -- in the event the counter-party was somehow unaware of this fact.

Moreover, the purchasers of various securitized products were not financially unsophisticated investors. Indeed, the vast majority of the purchasers were sophisticated market participants ranging from mutual funds, pension funds and some hedge funds. These investors were given documentation of the loans and mortgages that comprised the asset 'pool' and they chose to invest in the particular product. They either didn't understand what the nature of their investment -- in which case they should have avoided investing in such products -- or they thought they were good investments. Indeed, the were so popular amongst large sophisticated investors because the 'greed' of these investors tempted them with fat yields.

[edit]: Additionally, the systemic risk created by the banks did not relate to selling the securitized products to the various purchasers of such products. Rather, the true source of the risk was that banks were holding certain tranches of those products on their own balance sheets or on off-balance sheet vehicles (such as SPVs or SIVs) that spring-loaded them back to the banks in the event of a downturn. As such, even if you want to argue the selling banks engaged in some sort of fraudulent activities, these fraudulent activities did not pose any risk to the banks (indeed, only the investors would have suffered losses). The banks' decision to hold onto some of the very securities they were selling brought down Bear and Lehman and threatened the stability of the other large Wall Street banks.[edit]

I wrote this earlier in the thread and I'll just do a c&p:

At bottom, the crisis was produced by a housing bubble. The housing bubble was caused by a confluence of factors ranging from the imprudence of Wall St. to governmental policy to monetary policy to personal avarice on the part of individuals.

To be sure, the bubble probably would not have been as large as it was absent the financial innovations used by Wall St. banks. Like all bubbles, however, the housing bubble would have eventually would have burst irrespective of any participation by Wall Street.

I would also suggest that the seize-up in markets and the true 'panic' period of Fall '08 to Winter '09 was also partially the fault of government taking a too interventionist role in the financial markets. Specifically, the government's inconsistency in handling the Bear and Lehman situations spooked the market (the government rescue of Bear also created expectations -- both within financial markets and the remaining banks themselves -- that were frustrated when the government refused to support Lehman). Lehman could have been wound-up like any business but the inconsistent policy of the government induced an irrational response by many market participants which created the run or panic that caused such harm. This is not to suggest that Dick Fuld was a good manager or that Lehman was well-run -- they were most certainly not. I think, however, you are not properly appreciating the effect of government policy and action can have on financial markets, transforming a blip into a serious problem.


It wasn't that people asking for home loans were any more or less qualified than they ever were, in aggregate, but rather that a lot more loans were extended to people having dubious means to meet the obligations.

In the first instance, I would contend that governmental policy helped to influence the extension of credit to lower-quality credit risks. To be sure, demand simulated by financial innovation and pursuit of profit contributed to this extension as well. The one point I would make, however, is that the two banks that collapsed -- Bear and Lehman -- were not actually responsible for issuing mortgages to consumers as they were true investment banks. Although they might have been secondary-purchasers of the mortgages -- as they used them as the 'ingredients' for securtized products -- they were not the original issuers. Moreover, even some of the larger banks that had joint consumer and investment banking and needed federal assistance to avert their individual liquidity problems -- such as BofA or Citi -- were not responsible for all the activity in the mortgage market.

This is not to say that the Wall Street banks were free of blame. I think it unfair, and a distortion of the facts, to lay all the blame for the extension of shoddy mortgages at their feet.
 
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orbster556

Senior member
Dec 14, 2005
228
0
71
still raking in enormous profit with shady practices.

This might have been true in the immediate aftermath of the crisis -- as the banks who were not as hard-hit by the crisis were able to seize opportunities created by the crisis -- but all of the big Wall Street banks have been suffering this year. Indeed, many are unable to even turn a profit let alone enormous profits.
 

ComradeBeck

Senior member
Jun 16, 2011
262
0
0
OMG you are a brain dead fox news listener. There can be no other explination.

Sums it up, when you guys wish to come back to reality and get out of your soap opera alternate universe of right wing media feel free to join the rest of your countrymen. Do you want Democrats running things? Or do you all just not give a shit about the country and want to see it burn?

Nevermind, I don't really want to know you guys answer to that question. It is obvious.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
Sums it up, when you guys wish to come back to reality and get out of your soap opera alternate universe of right wing media feel free to join the rest of your countrymen. Do you want Democrats running things? Or do you all just not give a shit about the country and want to see it burn?

Nevermind, I don't really want to know you guys answer to that question. It is obvious.


Once you actual open up your mind, and stop boxing everyone that thinks different then you, we can have a discussion.

But since you want to give brain dead answers like 'your controled by xyz'. Theres no point in having any discussion with you.

Because the truth of the matter is, you have to call everyone you disagree with a brain dad fox news listener. If you didn't you'd actually have to think about what they said.


You can respond. But dont expect an answer. You obivously cannot think past plastering a label on someone.
 
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